Singapore must help malaysia if indonesia attacks
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malaysia currently dont even have a sub... at least TNI can boast that they were the first among ASEAN to own and operate subs well before even singapore got ours. from sweden.Originally posted by chanjyj:We may not use air but our subs instead. Indonesia doesn't have much capability in the submarine area as compared to M'sia and SG.
thus sub and anti-sub warfare experience isnt new to TNI... -
whether MAF could detect such a massive redeployment by TNI is up to question, but... lets assume they can... how would MAF react?
u dont have to assume..the answer is they can, if they cant we can tell them.are you gonna pre-emptive strike deep into indonesia to prevent indonesia from building up its forces... do you even have the neccessary assets to conduct such a move?
maybe not a pre emptive strike. But it gives them a huge advantages in terms of defensive preparation. In fact if the invasion were confirmed a diplomatic attack could be wage easily in the United Nation. malaysia is not Rwanda or Nigeria... the world will fall heavily on indonesia.in short... you cant stop TNI deployment prior to a war within its own territory..... unless you wish to justify indonesia's war against malaysia.
they probably cant stop it, but what if during the massive deployment of humongus sampan and junk it was detected by the malaysian, im sure they will tell their spec ops operative who is already there reconeitering the mobilisation to destroy or sabotage some of the transport?at the same time.. you lack the forces to handle a TNI deployment along your borders and coastlines...
i doubt TNI can deploy everywhere at the same time too. A BIG DOUBT.there is no need for 4 million TNI troops... just afew hundred thoudsand would be more then sufficient.... though additional forces could be valueable in exploiting opportunity or to remedy pitfalls... but i doubt you really need millions of soldiers.
then TNI is doomed from the start. MAF soldier were better armed, equip and better trained than TNI. TNI were just pretty..with colourfull uniform and barret and too many time busy parading in front camera.
lets do this step by step:TNI starts to redeploy to kalimantan... lets say 250,000 soldier (bloody massive overkill considering the number of MAF troop in east malaysia)
It must be fun being 1st Div who can do all the 'overkill' they want.simultaneously... TNI moves 100,000 soldiers to sumatra. (obviously to pin MAF forces in peninsula down.)
TNI i cant do this simply because they couldnt. If TNI cant do it in Acheh the cant do it in Kalimantan.given that both sides dont have strong air power.... the eastern front would mostly be a land warfare deal...
nope RMAF have stronger airforce.. TNI just have junk.as for RMAF, you need not consider its effect on the war.. since they are too few in number to be of any practical use... especially if you divide it by 3 between ops, maintainance and standby... then divide it further by 3 with 2/3 for peninsula malaysia and remaing 1/3 for east malaysia.
dude airforce didnt deploy aircraft like that... the scenario u use sounds like a computer games.even if we discount mahatir statement about the useless hornet in RMAF inventory due to lack of source code.....
dont tell me u believe him?a simple example... 8 RMAF hornet... divide in by 3 you get about 2.5, divide in by another 3... you get near zero availability for east malaysia.
this is getting my nerve. Who thought u that? AH BENG? Airforce dont simply do things that way lah!and while fighters of modern day is capable of multi-role... they cannot do more then 1 role as effectively, simply because they cannot be at two places at the same time, a hornet on CAS cannot be on MS (maritime strike) at the same time.
if they can do their night bombing which the TNI AU cant do anything about it since all their aircraft were only limited day strike, im sure the RMAF will stick at night only.the turnaround time as well as pilot fatigue also eats heavily into the availability of the machine to support front line forces.
all fighter pilot were trained to cope this, like the Israeli did during the first 3 day of the 6 day war. Why would you thought the pilot will break? Because thats what happen to TNI during training.please tell us... how you gonna defend yourself.
i supposed i cannot answer this since im not Malaysian... but what the heck...
by killing all of the 250 000 u sent.oh... if really one on one.. MAF vs TNI... TNI at least makes alot of their military weapons... i am sure... MAF would almost gauranteed to run out of war material before TNI does...
well im sure all of the pT pindad can replace the destroyed weapon and vehicles as fast as it was destroyed.
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you are not the PM of singapore... i have serious doubt you know what singapore will or will not do in such a crisis.... but nevertheless i sincerely doubt TNI would even want to hide such a troop movement...Originally posted by tankfanatic:u dont have to assume..the answer is they can, if they cant we can tell them.
since its purpose is to divide the MAF troop deployment.maybe not a pre emptive strike. But it gives them a huge advantages in terms of defensive preparation. In fact if the invasion were confirmed a diplomatic attack could be wage easily in the United Nation. malaysia is not Rwanda or Nigeria... the world will fall heavily on indonesia.
until the first round is fired... there is no ground for a diplomatic offensive... afterall... TNI is merely moving within its border... if that gets on your nerve.. too bad for you.
and last i check... nobody came to save rwanda or nigeria... right?
they probably cant stop it, but what if during the massive deployment of humongus sampan and junk it was detected by the malaysian, im sure they will tell their spec ops operative who is already there reconeitering the mobilisation to destroy or sabotage some of the transport?
and TNI are made up of monkey who would just squat there and watch the fireworks....
i doubt TNI can deploy everywhere at the same time too. A BIG DOUBT.
yeah... i am sure TNI cannot take all the time it wants to deploy within its own border at its leisure... maybe they should bid for a COE from you before they can move their troops?then TNI is doomed from the start. MAF soldier were better armed, equip and better trained than TNI. TNI were just pretty..with colourfull uniform and barret and too many time busy parading in front camera.
i can say the same about MAF if i want... but does it prove anything? are you gonna ask MAF to fight indonesia while holding onto such a "belief"It must be fun being 1st Div who can do all the 'overkill' they want.
it helps when you got the largest population in the region... number has a unique quality of its own as a russian general once said....
TNI i cant do this simply because they couldnt. If TNI cant do it in Acheh the cant do it in Kalimantan.
the difference between can and cant is the will to take that first step... to TNI, its never a question of can or cant.. but rather.. want or dont want...nope RMAF have stronger airforce.. TNI just have junk.
one is a pot, the other is a kettle... who is blacker? i think its up to individual point of view...dude airforce didnt deploy aircraft like that... the scenario u use sounds like a computer games.
i am sure you are real expert in this field... maybe you can offer us an insight as to how you would deploy the RMAF assets against a TNI blitz offensive in east malaysia.
dont tell me u believe him?
it wasnt so long ago when our own RSAF AMRAAM C-5 was "quarantined" by the US... i have no reason to doubt his words given our own experience.
this is getting my nerve. Who thought u that? AH BENG? Airforce dont simply do things that way lah!
you are always welcomed to teach us... we are all ears..
the americans with their massive air forces proved helpless against the vietnamese ground forces running amok in the jungles...
i am sure you are able to offer a way how a miserably small RMAF is gonna stop waves of hundreds of thoudsands of TNI soldiers pouring across the border when the war begins.
if they can do their night bombing which the TNI AU cant do anything about it since all their aircraft were only limited day strike, im sure the RMAF will stick at night only.
the question is ... how many nights do you have... before TNI soldiers begins to overrun every single air base in east malaysia? 5 nights? 10 nights?? i am sure those night bombings must be massacring TNI soldiers by the tens of thoudsand with carpet bombing flown by hundreds of RMAF B-52s.
oops... you only got 8 hornet...
all fighter pilot were trained to cope this, like the Israeli did during the first 3 day of the 6 day war. Why would you thought the pilot will break? Because thats what happen to TNI during training.
after 3 to 6 day of war? take viagra?? i supposed i cannot answer this since im not Malaysian... but what the heck...
with prayer or with bomoh magic?
by killing all of the 250 000 u sent.well im sure all of the pT pindad can replace the destroyed weapon and vehicles as fast as it was destroyed. Rolling Eyes
better then MAF can replace theirs... -
i disagree. stay neutral is the best. let united nations or u.s.a. get involved bah.
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My two cents.
The RMAF simply lacks the "omph" needed to seriously deter a TNI invasion, assuming they manage to land as many dudes as possible on East Malaysia. The numbers simply don't add up.
And the IAF example raised by tankfanatic doesn't make too much sense when you consider that the IAF had many more planes to fight their wars with then the RMAF. Hence when it comes to attrittion, losing one aircraft to enemy fire or breakdown is far less of an issue with them then the RMAF.
Yes they can get jets into the air, but how much effect is another thing. You don't get the Yankee style of CAS where the grunts can mail order an airstrike in short order on priority targets, and in any case the RMAF simply can't get enough weapons airborne to make a serious dent on the ground effort, even if they did some crazy multiple land, grab bombs and take off sortie cycle.
Unless of course you buy the Iron Malayan argument that a couple of jets can hold off entire armies kind of thing, which I find highly dubious.
That said, if the TNI manages to land troops en masse there's going to be a serious fight and not some turkey shoot. -
Every army has good troops and bad troops.Originally posted by tankfanatic:then TNI is doomed from the start. MAF soldier were better armed, equip and better trained than TNI. TNI were just pretty..with colourfull uniform and barret and too many time busy parading in front camera.
Just that TNI is huge and quality control is a little harder than the tiny MAF.
But TNI must have very fierce and battle-hardened troops from all the internal wars they had been fighting?
I read a book about their commando/SOF called Kopassus. Pretty impressive. -
interesting though by tripwire....
Its seems that TNI based on ur judgment is definitely superior in every term....
as i know currently Indonesian army have strength around 250 000 personnels....deployed across the whole country....i just need to know how long would they need to mobilized all the troops and transport them to Kalimantan? and how long do they need to train and mobilized another 100 000 soldiers and deployed them in Sumatra?....1 month? 2 month? 3 month?
and as u said before that peninsular Malaysia is in a way is included in FPDA where the area is where if threatened is agreed by all parties outside Malaysia to lend a hand in term of troops and material to threatened country......i think MAF can leave a skeleton army in Peninsular and moved....say.....another two division to the east.....leave the armor corp behind.....i got an oil palm estate and the terrain over there is useless for the heavy equipment.....faster for u to use the river then the road to get from point to point....if im not mistaken Malaysian Army have a strength of 100 000 personnels and 50 000 active reservist.....IF mind u i said IF.....we can detect hostility as TNI mobilizing we can also activate all our active reservist and also call all inactive personnels (ex-servicement, ROTU corps, ex-school military cadet, ect.) probably we can manage to raised more men for the coming struggle....exact number of how many troops that can be raised i dont know......but say we manage to raised 20 000.... and deployed them across western Peninsular Malaysia and leave the eastern and northern border to the Police Field Force.....that will basically put our strength in peninsular around 45 000 personnels.....i think that will be enough for us to put hell of a fight....
all rite u will probably argue why should the British, Australian, Kiwis, and Singaporean come to our help in our time of distress by my argument is why not? they come last time....why they don't want to come now? but we never know until it happen....
but this is based on the idea that the battlefields are only in Borneo with the in mind that TNI dont want to activate the FPDA....if Indonesia launch a two pronged attack on both peninsular and east Malaysia is a different story all together......
anyway....i think they wont come.....if not they already here.....ill be expecting next morning to see the Jalur Gemilang still flying at my office building...not the Sang Saka Merah Putih.....
as i said before they tried before...they can try again.....if they really want -
TNI has lots of troops, but they are so scattered and organising them would be a dead give away. All the following points are just my thoughts:
1) The logistics needed for such a great amassment of troops would indeed be massive and none practical. Basic necessities like housing, food... etc. Even the arming of the troops and providing them with bullets will take up a massive cut from their defence budget.
2) Transportation would be a major headache. If I am not wrong, they do have some landing ships and probably not more than 30 C-130s? The nearest major military airbase capable of these kind of support is probably in Sumatra? The nearest commercial airport is in Batam. Our defenses would easily pick up any signs of activities (I hope). Any movement of their planes from Kalimantan or western Java would be a key indication for our guys to watch out.
3) Unless they are able to unit their people against Singapore, if not what they would be facing is a potential civil war within their country with the mass exodus of security troops to bases in Sumatra (within striking distance of Singapore).
4) If the attack fails, the government must be prepared for a major counter attack from Singapore, by then most of their airforce should be down. Singapore should concentrate on the key military installations, using air strikes.
But hopefully such a thing would not happen. Neither side will really win the war since Indonesia would (most probably) be thrown into anarchy and terrorism would be on the rise. It does not bode well for Singapore. The best is still peace.
Haha, just my silly half cent worth. -
aiyo, not say take west malaysia lah. if suey suey war really break out between them, towards the end of war, then singapore should come in and help west malaysia re-establish public order, setup police force and do some reorganization.Originally posted by tripwire:we should help indonesia... and take out malaysia together... they take east malaysia... we take west malaysia...
After all this done, then can help them have a election to decide whether to join singapore or not. Don't worry lar, PAP always win in election 1. -
i am press for time... so i will keep my answers short. i hope...Originally posted by SureRock:interesting though by tripwire....
Its seems that TNI based on ur judgment is definitely superior in every term....
as i know currently Indonesian army have strength around 250 000 personnels....deployed across the whole country....i just need to know how long would they need to mobilized all the troops and transport them to Kalimantan? and how long do they need to train and mobilized another 100 000 soldiers and deployed them in Sumatra?....1 month? 2 month? 3 month?
and as u said before that peninsular Malaysia is in a way is included in FPDA where the area is where if threatened is agreed by all parties outside Malaysia to lend a hand in term of troops and material to threatened country......i think MAF can leave a skeleton army in Peninsular and moved....say.....another two division to the east.....leave the armor corp behind.....i got an oil palm estate and the terrain over there is useless for the heavy equipment.....faster for u to use the river then the road to get from point to point....if im not mistaken Malaysian Army have a strength of 100 000 personnels and 50 000 active reservist.....IF mind u i said IF.....we can detect hostility as TNI mobilizing we can also activate all our active reservist and also call all inactive personnels (ex-servicement, ROTU corps, ex-school military cadet, ect.) probably we can manage to raised more men for the coming struggle....exact number of how many troops that can be raised i dont know......but say we manage to raised 20 000.... and deployed them across western Peninsular Malaysia and leave the eastern and northern border to the Police Field Force.....that will basically put our strength in peninsular around 45 000 personnels.....i think that will be enough for us to put hell of a fight....
all rite u will probably argue why should the British, Australian, Kiwis, and Singaporean come to our help in our time of distress by my argument is why not? they come last time....why they don't want to come now? but we never know until it happen....
but this is based on the idea that the battlefields are only in Borneo with the in mind that TNI dont want to activate the FPDA....if Indonesia launch a two pronged attack on both peninsular and east Malaysia is a different story all together......
anyway....i think they wont come.....if not they already here.....ill be expecting next morning to see the Jalur Gemilang still flying at my office building...not the Sang Saka Merah Putih.....
as i said before they tried before...they can try again.....if they really want
1. your figures are wrong.. for eg... MAF army current standing force is 80,000 and TNI army strength not including the marines stands at 285,000.
2. you wanna raise 20,000 extra forces? take a look at indonesia's population.. and tell me if you think they could raise even more soldiers within the same period of time... especially given their much bigger defence industries vis-a-vis malaysia's...
3. number wise.. malaysia dont stand a chance... so.. you can actually stop giving us any more figures.
4. strategically.. your plan needs the FPDA support... but as you know.. its not absolute.. and very often it depends alot on the spot political climate. for eg.. the brits are now heavily involved in IRAQ and AFGAN, plus terrorism at home... i doubt they are interested in getting into a war halfway round the world against a big (though not advance equipped) military.
australia lacks the number and new zealand dont even have an air force... who else is left to guard your house while you go hunting in east malaysia??
given malaysia's politicians constant anti-singapore attitude and countless effort to undermine singapore's economy as well as security... i doubt there will be much support in singapore to rescue someone who has been shouting potong potong across the causeway ever so often.... and trying to steal our island!!!
in fact.. i counted at least twice, SAF nearly invade malaysia and LKY once threaten to invade malaysia to defend singapore's interest... given the background... i doubt UMNO leaders would sleep well with singapore soldiers guarding their door...
5. why should singapore get in trouble with indonesia over east malaysia? it doesnt matter how we get involved.. TNI generals aint stupid... any effort on singapore part to assit MAF in any form or manner would be regarded the same as RSAF dropping a bomb in jakarta... so.. lets not kid ourselves by reading in-between the lines...
6. how you gonna get MAF from west malaysia to east malaysia? across indonesia territorial water or around natuna island??? either way... i doubt TNI will be amused... and do nothing to hinder or stop it.
7. moving MAF soldier to east malaysia is the easy part... logistical support to sustain and supply the additional forces would require substantial sealift and airlift capabilities... across or detour around indonesian territorial water and air space.... not easy leh.
ok.. i think this will do... damn long post again... -
make sense.......might as well we surrender right........become indonesia raya......hmmm....why not right.....having both side of malacca straight.....hmmmm......interesting thought.....Originally posted by tripwire:i am press for time... so i will keep my answers short. i hope...
1. your figures are wrong.. for eg... MAF army current standing force is 80,000 and TNI army strength not including the marines stands at 285,000.
2. you wanna raise 20,000 extra forces? take a look at indonesia's population.. and tell me if you think they could raise even more soldiers within the same period of time... especially given their much bigger defence industries vis-a-vis malaysia's...
3. number wise.. malaysia dont stand a chance... so.. you can actually stop giving us any more figures.
4. strategically.. your plan needs the FPDA support... but as you know.. its not absolute.. and very often it depends alot on the spot political climate. for eg.. the brits are now heavily involved in IRAQ and AFGAN, plus terrorism at home... i doubt they are interested in getting into a war halfway round the world against a big (though not advance equipped) military.
australia lacks the number and new zealand dont even have an air force... who else is left to guard your house while you go hunting in east malaysia??
given malaysia's politicians constant anti-singapore attitude and countless effort to undermine singapore's economy as well as security... i doubt there will be much support in singapore to rescue someone who has been shouting potong potong across the causeway ever so often.... and trying to steal our island!!!
in fact.. i counted at least twice, SAF nearly invade malaysia and LKY once threaten to invade malaysia to defend singapore's interest... given the background... i doubt UMNO leaders would sleep well with singapore soldiers guarding their door...
5. why should singapore get in trouble with indonesia over east malaysia? it doesnt matter how we get involved.. TNI generals aint stupid... any effort on singapore part to assit MAF in any form or manner would be regarded the same as RSAF dropping a bomb in jakarta... so.. lets not kid ourselves by reading in-between the lines...
6. how you gonna get MAF from west malaysia to east malaysia? across indonesia territorial water or around natuna island??? either way... i doubt TNI will be amused... and do nothing to hinder or stop it.
7. moving MAF soldier to east malaysia is the easy part... logistical support to sustain and supply the additional forces would require substantial sealift and airlift capabilities... across or detour around indonesian territorial water and air space.... not easy leh.
ok.. i think this will do... damn long post again... -
make sense.......might as well we surrender right........become indonesia raya......hmmm....why not right.....having both side of malacca straight.....hmmmm......interesting thought.....Originally posted by tripwire:i am press for time... so i will keep my answers short. i hope...
1. your figures are wrong.. for eg... MAF army current standing force is 80,000 and TNI army strength not including the marines stands at 285,000.
2. you wanna raise 20,000 extra forces? take a look at indonesia's population.. and tell me if you think they could raise even more soldiers within the same period of time... especially given their much bigger defence industries vis-a-vis malaysia's...
3. number wise.. malaysia dont stand a chance... so.. you can actually stop giving us any more figures.
4. strategically.. your plan needs the FPDA support... but as you know.. its not absolute.. and very often it depends alot on the spot political climate. for eg.. the brits are now heavily involved in IRAQ and AFGAN, plus terrorism at home... i doubt they are interested in getting into a war halfway round the world against a big (though not advance equipped) military.
australia lacks the number and new zealand dont even have an air force... who else is left to guard your house while you go hunting in east malaysia??
given malaysia's politicians constant anti-singapore attitude and countless effort to undermine singapore's economy as well as security... i doubt there will be much support in singapore to rescue someone who has been shouting potong potong across the causeway ever so often.... and trying to steal our island!!!
in fact.. i counted at least twice, SAF nearly invade malaysia and LKY once threaten to invade malaysia to defend singapore's interest... given the background... i doubt UMNO leaders would sleep well with singapore soldiers guarding their door...
5. why should singapore get in trouble with indonesia over east malaysia? it doesnt matter how we get involved.. TNI generals aint stupid... any effort on singapore part to assit MAF in any form or manner would be regarded the same as RSAF dropping a bomb in jakarta... so.. lets not kid ourselves by reading in-between the lines...
6. how you gonna get MAF from west malaysia to east malaysia? across indonesia territorial water or around natuna island??? either way... i doubt TNI will be amused... and do nothing to hinder or stop it.
7. moving MAF soldier to east malaysia is the easy part... logistical support to sustain and supply the additional forces would require substantial sealift and airlift capabilities... across or detour around indonesian territorial water and air space.... not easy leh.
ok.. i think this will do... damn long post again... -
you will probably loose east malaysia... but as i said in my previous post.. west malaysia should be fine....Originally posted by SureRock:make sense.......might as well we surrender right........become indonesia raya......hmmm....why not right.....having both side of malacca straight.....hmmmm......interesting thought.....
however... should situation worsen.... either SAF or RTA or both will pre-empt MAF under the support of major global powers to effect a take over of west malaysia to prevent an indonesia monopoly of the entire melacca straits.
you might ask... why the international community not support malaysia in its war against TNI?
1.. TNI control half of melacca strait, lombak, sunda and makassa straits.
2.. indonesia is a freaking large country... if indonesia falls apart.......
3.. malaysia dont stand a chance.. why bet on the looser?
why SAF and RTA dont help malaysia? we dont wanna take on TNI head on... and seriously.. if MAF is removed.. TNI automatcally loose its basis to continue a war where its adversary has been eliminated...
indonesia would not wanna continue a war with SAF and RTA (combined or serparately) after a grinding with MAF which would have depleted much of its war materials and troops.
but indonesia has alot of pride... unless given a good explanation... such as the destruction of its enemy.. it would be hard for TNI to stop a war because the enemy has become too strong due to foreign intervention... so the destruction of MAF would serve as the perfect excuse. -
latest news from malaysia...
malaysia will take actions against RSAF fighters intruding malaysia air space including DECLARATION OF WAR!!!
seriously... come on... wats the chances of FPDA being effective against TNI?
i say... if ever TNI goes against MAF... lets take the opportunity and at least remove one thorn from our butt....
http://www.zaobao.com/special/singapore/pages3/sg_my070704.html -
Apparently the Malaysians have this strange idea that the SAF, a force which would put thousands of citizen soldiers on the line in the event of war is so boliao as to poke their backside from time to time by intruding their airspace.
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1. your figures are wrong.. for eg... MAF army current standing force is 80,000 and TNI army strength not including the marines stands at 285,000.
i only worry about the kostard the rest were just pretty.2. you wanna raise 20,000 extra forces? take a look at indonesia's population.. and tell me if you think they could raise even more soldiers within the same period of time... especially given their much bigger defence industries vis-a-vis malaysia's...
bigger industry and industry that were given big PR is two different thing.3. number wise.. malaysia dont stand a chance... so.. you can actually stop giving us any more figures.
you can too..1/3..lol4. strategically.. your plan needs the FPDA support... but as you know.. its not absolute.. and very often it depends alot on the spot political climate. for eg.. the brits are now heavily involved in IRAQ and AFGAN, plus terrorism at home... i doubt they are interested in getting into a war halfway round the world against a big (though not advance equipped) military.
infact you are wrong..but i seem arguing this is moot.australia lacks the number and new zealand dont even have an air force... who else is left to guard your house while you go hunting in east malaysia??
MAF can handle its own..given malaysia's politicians constant anti-singapore attitude and countless effort to undermine singapore's economy as well as security... i doubt there will be much support in singapore to rescue someone who has been shouting potong potong across the causeway ever so often.... and trying to steal our island!!!
i always hear about this island thingy in any argument about INA attacking M... look pal SAF migh not help directly... but FPDA members will come. To show you an example look at east timor... the FPDA members didnt waste any time to poke neadle in Indonesia arse.in fact.. i counted at least twice, SAF nearly invade malaysia and LKY once threaten to invade malaysia to defend singapore's interest... given the background... i doubt UMNO leaders would sleep well with singapore soldiers guarding their door...
i figure LKY sleeps well? since he is the one that have to give that staement?5. why should singapore get in trouble with indonesia over east malaysia? it doesnt matter how we get involved.. TNI generals aint stupid... any effort on singapore part to assit MAF in any form or manner would be regarded the same as RSAF dropping a bomb in jakarta... so.. lets not kid ourselves by reading in-between the lines...
because it is better than helping criminal and rapist.6. how you gonna get MAF from west malaysia to east malaysia? across indonesia territorial water or around natuna island??? either way... i doubt TNI will be amused... and do nothing to hinder or stop it.
well how does TNI gonna move to east M..? im very sure no one will be amused by that.7. moving MAF soldier to east malaysia is the easy part... logistical support to sustain and supply the additional forces would require substantial sealift and airlift capabilities... across or detour around indonesian territorial water and air space.... not easy leh.
lol its like shooting your own foot... u are talking the reality on TNI! -
I wonder if somebody is forgetting that Indonesia actually requires it's own army to keep itself from falling apart as well, it can't throw all its weight into the fight, and the logistics issues that affect Malaysia are going to affect them as well, probably harder given the dispersed nature of their country.
And what makes us think if things really go bad Malaysia can't give up west Malaysia and settle for defending the east? It won't be a victory for them but I doubt the Indonesians can totally overwhelm Malaysia (both east and west) if they wanted, and if they are trying to do so you can bet that Singapore is on the hitlist as well, as we'll have to do something. -
...other than being the meat in the sandwich?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Iyou can bet that Singapore is on the hitlist as well, as we'll have to do something. -
If war starts, it would be at the disputed border at Ambalat........they nearly came to blows when their warships collided.
Questions:
Should a shooting war starts at East malaysia/Kalimantan, would it escalate to the Malacca Straits?
If so, how soon before it moves to our own backyard?
What do we do if the TNI-AL and the RMN starts shooting each other at Tanjong Rumania next to our Hosberg, and Indon commandos attack the RMN base at Pengarrang, barely 1 km from Tekong? -
What do we do if the TNI-AL and the RMN starts shooting each other at Tanjong Rumania next to our Hosberg, and Indon commandos attack the RMN base at Pengarrang, barely 1 km from Tekong?
Dig out and put on No.4 lor
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ahh...whatever laaa....
as long malaysian are not the agressor im fine with it.....the TNI can attack malaysia if they want to.......but clear out the blardy JI from their territory first.... -
I would say the hated Kopassus is a force to be reckon with. Infact I would say they are the elites of the TNI-AD.Originally posted by tankfanatic:i only worry about the kostard the rest were just pretty.
Mmmh but I may be wrong. What are your views? -
Sometimes when i read forum such as these I am totally amazed by the utter ignorance and self righteous sword wielding kids. Somehow I can't help but draw a conclusion that half of you are just noobs in military deployment and self rattling about superiority of SAF.
Yes i am a Malaysia and no doubt I will not second any opinion in Singapore's military standing in the region in every terms Deployment, Logistic, Air superiority, Comm. &Cont. etc.
However let me shed some light and put in some opinion of mine.
1: Yes FDPA is non-binding. And E Malaysia has no relevance to it. The reference given is Malaysia and I think someone did point out throughout this whole thread. Somewhere. Credit to that person. FDPA is timely relevance driven. Common sense.
2: Although some quarters do have reservation regarding Malaysian recent adhoc purchases leaning towards Russian-tech for better for worst was for many reasons
a: Russians are more tech transfer friendly, tho how it benefits Malaysia is a non-relevance to this topic
b: CHEAPER, within budget, I'm sure secondary accounting class taught most of you at least a little about budgeting, or many life experience with the 50cents and 10cents in your pocket.
c: We have bad experience with US. Due to 'reasons even beyond my logical thinking' we messed up the deal with our F18Ds. i am not sure if it is common practice of US, maybe some professional analyst can verify, the launch codes are held by US ie. Meaning we can't go around and go on any amok runs cause we have a expensive metal junk without launch codes ie. the planes.
3: Our Sukhois ASF, are highly maneuverable for whatever reasons we get it, yet again irrelevant to much extend to my point in this discussion and also it is flexi in its armaments and toys. Furthermore it can get to Labuan with moderate loading without refueling (need double confirmation on that). Shotgun prolly can talk a little more with much credit to him as well.
but my point is not all this. Whatever it is, the fact that any wars were to break out will definitely no doubt mess up the whole region BOP. Balance of power FYI and anyone say otherwise is a simple moron. ditto. The fact that if we all take a stop and look into US doctrine throughout world deployments tells us one thing. They one way or another will get involved, one way or another, big or small, willing or unwilling. Well for Singapore BAD LUCK. You can't sit tight and definitely need to do alot of deployment, least to secure borders. Even in mist of neutrality, Singapore will be hosting heavy US presence bla bla bla you got my point there. Singapore WILL feel the effects of the war as you know You have every good reason to brag about your economic strength and well i remembered someone did mention your biggest strength is your weakness in a difference context, but still the fact is you will be hit hard economically. You WILL want a swift war IF the floodgate was to break. You will be inclined to pick sides. How your leaders will maneuver around it another day's story. Psstt.. let me enlighten you with a little hint. One of the worlds most populated nations going to war? Hello? US will not sit on it neither the world will. Well however i must admit one thing - is that I doubt how effective in immediate terms UN will be. Its plague by internal politics and bad policies.
Malaysian army is not as weak as you think. Comparison or relativity. Indo could simply deploy 10 brigades through Kalimantan if they are stupid enough to start with. But someone again did drop a good point. No one will be stupid enough NOT to notice the troops movements. If no one did, well what can i say - we deserve it. Alarm bells would be ringing. Para Brigade will be instantly deployed to supplement 1st division along with smaller movements. West Coast defenses would be increase, Brunei will not sit on her warm ass you know, and Aussie and Kiwi also. Not to mention Singapore being a 'small red dot' as someone had put it will neither do that.
The fact is singapore would not be able to sustain without the existence of Malaysia. A simply fact. Oh ya, bare in mind thats provided the rest of the world sit with their arms folded. Whoever they are. Within 48 hours, if all plays up well East Malaysia easily would be a 'killing ground' but honestly ill prefer to think as a logging ground. More trees then human anyway. The simple fact is that whatever war it would be it will not be one-on-one so chew on that for let it sink in.
Indonesia being so fragmented will face security issues should their army be spread too thin. Common sense again. And it also tells us simply any large concentration of force in any one particular area weakens another. A stupid move that i think 200mil brains would at least figure that out, and I dont like it how you all be such a racist and call em Muslim. Not that I am one but hey, stop being a racist P*g. Colors of skin probably sparked half the worlds killing.
And well in regards to the girls photo, be ignorant and shout all the racist remark you want and gloat about it. If it was your wife/sister/child/grands on the table i get you it will be a different story. So learn some humility.
History taught us that wars are something we can really do without so learn how to admit it and put words out of your mouth with some responsibility on ur part. Ignorant is bliss, need i talk about stupidity, at its finest? In scenarios such as this is not my gun is bigger or my men is more. If you truly understand the totality of war then you SHOULD i pray understand the reciprocal effects it would have throughout the whole region.
P.S for you Singaporean out there. Yes we might not be as advance then you guys. A fact. Not going to argue on that, but know this, whoever you are up against will not go down without a fight and well you and I know SAF will not be able to pull off any occupational force and well your forward defense doctrine says exactly that. no doubt UN will need to step in if you do. However, if you attack, your future defense look awfully bleak in National Security. And of course whichever nation that attacks Singapore will likely pay a hefty economical sanction from all over the world. Wars are no longer only fought in conventional means with gunpowder and machines. Economical force is also another, East Asia is a good example how it is played out.
However, putting this views into a box, the plus and minus i can think of is that Msia and Indo are very much less economical dependant IN COMPARISON to Singapore in relative terms. We would be able to stonewall a economic crisis longer in the SHORTTERM then Singapore BEFORE freefalling, while Singapore will Freefall first before instantly bouce back in a jiff. On another point is that it would be stupid for Singapore to make second move - instead of first for obvious reasons.
TNI and RAF airforce is comparable but we have an advantage of less airspace.
This is just my two cents to this whole thread. I'm sick and tired how other people nation bash another standing on a pedestal of ignorance.
Just keep in mind, any war to break out will not end in one generation so suck on that for the meantime and think. you can't evaluate any war as if they fight i sit i no lose they all lose - ie i win. -
1. your figures are wrong.. for eg... MAF army current standing force is 80,000 and TNI army strength not including the marines stands at 285,000.
Its approx 90,000 in battle order minus support elements.
2. you wanna raise 20,000 extra forces? take a look at indonesia's population.. and tell me if you think they could raise even more soldiers within the same period of time... especially given their much bigger defence industries vis-a-vis malaysia's...
valid point. We are screwed in that sense.
3. number wise.. malaysia dont stand a chance... so.. you can actually stop giving us any more figures.
As above, but same goes to singapore.
4. strategically.. your plan needs the FPDA support... but as you know.. its not absolute.. and very often it depends alot on the spot political climate. for eg.. the brits are now heavily involved in IRAQ and AFGAN, plus terrorism at home... i doubt they are interested in getting into a war halfway round the world against a big (though not advance equipped) military.
True. But I prefer to think otherwise. Wars do not conviniently happens and same goes to participating in wars. Well a war will definately mess up oil prices the least i can think off head. something would likely happen, its impact another story. But point taken
australia lacks the number and new zealand dont even have an air force... who else is left to guard your house while you go hunting in east malaysia?? Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
Is it just me or E Malaysia is the unlikely MAIN THEATER? But well thats where Brunei and allies come into picture, but yea~ i admit.. I am not 100% sure of it...just READ above. I doubt it would be in a large scale invasion in East Malaysia, most likely targeted key location invasion, something very much isolated by size, easily taken and would also mean 'possibly' easily re-taken. Moreover, wars now are much faster. Its Military illogical to defend the whole Kalimantan Border what else face2face engagement.
given malaysia's politicians constant anti-singapore attitude and countless effort to undermine singapore's economy as well as security... i doubt there will be much support in singapore to rescue someone who has been shouting potong potong across the causeway ever so often.... and trying to steal our island!!!
Come on, be honest, if Malaysia is losing Singapore will be peeing in her pants as well. Imagine the changes is regional politics and your neighbours. Even Aust armaments has alot to do with its proximity with Indonesia, and if your claims of race, skin colour is true, well you're contradicting yourself by acting high and mighty.
in fact.. i counted at least twice, SAF nearly invade malaysia and LKY once threaten to invade malaysia to defend singapore's interest... given the background... i doubt UMNO leaders would sleep well with singapore soldiers guarding their door... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
Water issue. A silly saga but essential in strategic importance wise. Admit. psst.. for you gloats out there, if we are so 'noob' as you think we are, well you better pray hard that in your FANTASY of a 'successful' campaign, no missiles accidentally pass thru your defence net, cause for every one of it, its a building block the very least. I'm not comparing guns, just sharing some humility not to wear a hat bigger then your head, cause it will simply block your sight.
5. why should singapore get in trouble with indonesia over east malaysia? it doesnt matter how we get involved.. TNI generals aint stupid... any effort on singapore part to assit MAF in any form or manner would be regarded the same as RSAF dropping a bomb in jakarta... so.. lets not kid ourselves by reading in-between the lines...
True, but by not helping, one way or another Singapore will be crucified in the long run. Something cross my mind... refugees...lol.. its silly but imagine the 'swim-overs'...
6. how you gonna get MAF from west malaysia to east malaysia? across indonesia territorial water or around natuna island??? either way... i doubt TNI will be amused... and do nothing to hinder or stop it.
Point taken, but it will be a long run logistical problem, on the immidiate term this is not relevant. Deployment would be made as TNI showing aggression
7. moving MAF soldier to east malaysia is the easy part... logistical support to sustain and supply the additional forces would require substantial sealift and airlift capabilities... across or detour around indonesian territorial water and air space.... not easy leh.
true no buts here. I guess this is a weak point the MAF is trying to solve
btw..sorry for the bad english, noticed many grammer errors and bad phrasing. Kinda rush through this without proof reading . As long as you can understand, that is what that matters. Yet again, my apologies -
Some here, are like you said - just kids, literally. And the rest of us are just armchair generals commanding a desk.Originally posted by zacklee:Sometimes when i read forum such as these I am totally amazed by the utter ignorance and self righteous sword wielding kids. Somehow I can't help but draw a conclusion that half of you are just noobs in military deployment and self rattling about superiority of SAF. So chill out.