Singapore Marines
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How come we do not have a amphibious specialised Marine Corps?
We have heliborne Guards, why not Marines?
Being surrounded by water, you would think this is a natural choice.
Indonesia has Marines if I'm not wrong. And Malaysia also has no Marines, I think.
While our heliborne forces should be pretty well-equipped and organised by now, we seem to be quite basic in the amphibious area, or are we not?
Yes, many of us have been on assault boats but these are quite small scale ops. -
Marines are, how should we put it mildly, highly offensive element.
They are raised for very specific offensive missions and, in the grand scheme of things, do not fall into MINDEF's operational requirements. It's not too difficult to understand why.
For one thing, Marines will require alot of additional support from the Navy. Our Navy is still pretty much a defensive element, not really capable of projecting beyond our immediate area. -
BTW...guards are seaborne too....Originally posted by chino65:How come we do not have a amphibious specialised Marine Corps?
We have heliborne Guards, why not Marines?
Being surrounded by water, you would think this is a natural choice.
Indonesia has Marines if I'm not wrong. And Malaysia also has no Marines, I think.
While our heliborne forces should be pretty well-equipped and organised by now, we seem to be quite basic in the amphibious area, or are we not?
Yes, many of us have been on assault boats but these are quite small scale ops. -
No need for Marines.Guards can already fulfill that requirement,as and when needed.
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Guys,guys, guys... How can u all forget abt NDU???? They can fight from air, land and the sea...
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Until something is done, there will always be people who say it shouldn't be done, cannot be done, no need etc.
Before the MRT was built, a lot of Singaporeans were against the idea of having a MRT system for many reasons.
Before Leopard A4 announcement was made, a lot of people were saying we don't need one etc.
We don't have Marines now, but there's no reason we definitely won't have them in future. -
I believe we will slowly progress to a Marine Corps, perhaps two battalions sized.
It might be a forward joint expeditionary group that can perform disaster recovery and humanitarian work at a very short notice, with organic land and air support elements.
Give or take 5-10 years though. The naval infrastructure is already there, what is left is the manpower requirement and any will to make it happen.
Under a RSMC ( Republic of Singapore Marine Corps ) Orbat, we could see
NDU - Force Recon/Marine SOF
1 Marines - Regular duties
2 Marines - Regular duties. -
The fact that Guards and other infantry units practice amphibious ops is actually a good indication that SAF might eventually field a Marine-type unit.
Instead of the opposite as some see it.
Being a specialilsed Marine unit is a whole different ball game from infantry units doing the occasional sea borne assault by little assault boats.
The Guards will eventually be strictly heliborne like the US Air Cavalry.
Both the Guards and the Marines of the future will constitute our Rapid Deployment Force, which I am guessing will be our doctrine in the near future.
SAF had been preaching Forward Defence for decades. Well, you can't "Forward Defence" if everyone is going by land.
So, a heliborne and seaborne RDF will be the instrument of that policy. Some go by air, some go by sea, and the rest of us go by bus No. 11.
Depending on just heliborne is also not enough cos heliborne forces are not heavy enough.
So you would need to land men and heavy equipment by sea the old-fashioned way.
And that's a Marines job. -
Are the 191 Sqn's 4 LSTs (RSS Endurance,RSS Resolution,RSS Persistence andRSS Endeavour) ain't gonna be enough to support the operations of 2 battalions of marines with all their equipment such as tanks, arty etc. Granted that naval gunfire can be used in place of arty, the current LSTs should have no prob. moving 2 Guards BN with all their gear, LSVs, tonners etc...but other then that...more would be required man.
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That won't be a problem. ST Marine has actually LPD designs much larger than the LSTs in service now. The SAF turned them down because present usage does not call for such large vessels.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Are the 191 Sqn's 4 LSTs (RSS Endurance,RSS Resolution,RSS Persistence andRSS Endeavour) ain't gonna be enough to support the operations of 2 battalions of marines with all their equipment such as tanks, arty etc. Granted that naval gunfire can be used in place of arty, the current LSTs should have no prob. moving 2 Guards BN with all their gear, LSVs, tonners etc...but other then that...more would be required man.
Our technical support is there, what is needed is just doctrinal change and leadership's long-term vision. Oh, and think hovercrafts. We've been playing with them recently. -
Since we're getting more influenced by the Americans, i'd say yea... Quite possible...
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But if SAF decide to have Marine Bn,if NDU is going to be in the part of it,NDU is going to have a large intake of ppl... But the NDU is part of the Navy leh... Muz ask CNV hor...
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Marines can come under General Staff.Originally posted by gaoxingdcf:But if SAF decide to have Marine Bn,if NDU is going to be in the part of it,NDU is going to have a large intake of ppl... But the NDU is part of the Navy leh... Muz ask CNV hor...
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We've got Sea soldiers who do train pretty damn hard and stuff.
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I remember seeing Soviet Union/Russia had some HUGE Mother-of-all hovercrafts in their Marine units. These things can beach themselves and tanks and infantry will pour out of it.Originally posted by LazerLordz:That won't be a problem. ST Marine has actually LPD designs much larger than the LSTs in service now. The SAF turned them down because present usage does not call for such large vessels.
Our technical support is there, what is needed is just doctrinal change and leadership's long-term vision. Oh, and think hovercrafts. We've been playing with them recently.
The Western amphibious capabilities pale in scale when compared to those of former Soviet Union.
The quality of western troops are not in doubt, but I am talking about sheer scale.
PLAN uses huge hovercrafts, too. And their Marine units are also very powerful, dreaming about Taiwan all the time. -
our Guard have the AMX 10 deployable from LST leh then LST carries heli ... almost marine liao lah
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Oh, here it is. Called the Zubr. Has no equal in the world. At least twice the size of the largest US hovercraft.
57 meters long and 20 meters wide. 130km/hr on water.
Can carry 500 troopers or 10 armoured vehicles. Or more commonly, a mix of men and tanks.
China ordered SIX last year!!!
Its on-board armament is also impressive including a six-barrel chain gun known as the "metal-cutter".
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These trials with Guard units could merely be the early stages of developing fully-specialised amphibious infantry.Originally posted by seancannot:our Guard have the AMX 10 deployable from LST leh then LST carries heli ... almost marine liao lah -
Typically we only have 6 Bn of Infantry and 2 Bn of Guards that were active.. this is not classified... it is open info, part of SAF's orbat.
To get 2 Bn will of "marines" assuming we strip from existing orbat will mean that we will have
4x SIR
2x "Marines"
2x Guards
Don't you think this is overly "heavy" in terms of Guards and Marines? we have as much Guards and "Marines" as there is SIR.
The strength of the USMC is that they have a very large amphibous (spelling) afloat... and that they USMC have integral air element.... these only make sense if there are large forces. -
My assumption is that a new Marines orbat of 2 BNs will consist of elements drawn from all three services to provide the numbers. We need air and naval assets to be organic to the BN to be considered as Marines.Originally posted by spencer99:Typically we only have 6 Bn of Infantry and 2 Bn of Guards that were active.. this is not classified... it is open info, part of SAF's orbat.
To get 2 Bn will of "marines" assuming we strip from existing orbat will mean that we will have
4x SIR
2x "Marines"
2x Guards
Don't you think this is overly "heavy" in terms of Guards and Marines? we have as much Guards and "Marines" as there is SIR.
The strength of the USMC is that they have a very large amphibous (spelling) afloat... and that they USMC have integral air element.... these only make sense if there are large forces.
Need not draw down the SIRs. But merely increase recruitment efforts, with Marines to be more regular than conscript based. Of course, conscripts may volunteer to cross over depending on staffing numbers on their parent unit.
I believe for this to succeed, the SAF has to undergo a real paradigm shift in mindset and push towards a larger professional regular Armed Forces. -
for some reason I doubt that is SAF direction, mindef will have to invest on more asset to support such an outfit. I think right now they are focusing on joint strike. if the intention to establish unit like marine to be peace keeping deployment it has to involve civilian gov, and not sure if SAF can substance peace keeping deployment and maintain all other SAF functions equal i think it would tied down too much resources. Lastly, GST might go up again.
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i seriously do not think that Singapore will increase any two Bn... there just isn't any manpower...Originally posted by LazerLordz:My assumption is that a new Marines orbat of 2 BNs will consist of elements drawn from all three services to provide the numbers. We need air and naval assets to be organic to the BN to be considered as Marines.
Need not draw down the SIRs. But merely increase recruitment efforts, with Marines to be more regular than conscript based. Of course, conscripts may volunteer to cross over depending on staffing numbers on their parent unit.
I believe for this to succeed, the SAF has to undergo a real paradigm shift in mindset and push towards a larger professional regular Armed Forces.
The recent unit increases in the Military Intel Bn and the chem defence Bn are more non conventional units.
don't think there will be incease in "infantry" units marine or otherwise.
as for the paradigm shift, i tend not to agree, i don't think there will be larger regular professional armed forces... -
Good point about the limitations of yearly intake manpower.
But if you look at the big picture, we have at least 350,000 men (including reservists) in uniform upon mobilisation. Surely, there is a way to get 2 battalions of Marines out of this number?
Even if we start with just one combined arms Marine battalion, after a few intakes we will have several Marine Battalions including the reservists.
But as the Marine Battalion reservist age, they can be downgraded back to regular infantry status so we don't need to maintain too many Marine Battalions as they need a lot of assets.
The focus in future will definitely be on making units as mobile as possible. Getting there fast is sometimes half the battle won.
Regular foot soldier infantry units are becoming a thing of the past. Especially with our dwindling manpower, all combat units would eventually have some specialised roles or at least end up being mounted or amalgamated into some combined arms brigades or divisions.
SAF becoming 3G surely is more than just adding a few computers here and there. The whole SAF will shrink in size but will increase in firepower, protection, sophistication in personnel, tactics and equipment - as well as mobility etc etc. -
Although we do not have dedicated official marines in SAF, we already have similar elements within the current ORBAT.
The 'rumoured' ADF is an all regular battalion which have rapid deployment capabilities such as using LST. Our current Guards outfit have a mixture of heliborne and amphibious assault capabilities (eg Super Pumas with LSV and AMX-10). Not to mention the NDU from the navy which sends soldiers for SEAL training in the US regularly.
As someone have mentioned earlier, the term Marines is offensive in nature and thus not used due to political reasons. But if you ask me,we already have 'marines' within SAF. Should one day Singapore government have the political will to assert Singapore as a regional military power then they can easily reshuffle the various units currently within SAF to form a new Marine formation.
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PS....can somebody explain why is it that people keep posting that NDU is to be considered as Marines? The way I see it...they do diff. things from say Marine Spec.Ops ie. Marine Force Recon. They chart waters, clear underwater demo., collect soil samples to see if a beach can be used to land tanks, trucks, clearing underwater obstacles such as iron pikes, tank traps etc...or can be used the SEALs are used in Gulf War 1 creating a diversion by means of a mock landing on a beach etc.