need help on SINDEX F-16 vs SU-30MKI
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according to some taiwan forum... a recent taiwan based defence magazine. has shed insight on the sindex exercise with the RSAF F-16 shooting down the SU-30MKI....
does anyone have access to the magazine and kindly scan and upload for us??
http://www.diic.com.tw/
suppose to be in issue 273 under the defence topic
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here is the taiwan forum... for those interested.. please note that it is in chinese language.
http://forum.pfp.org.tw/viewtopic.php?p=265230&highlight=&sid=6db8e5f12746c4ca6c8e137572e57f46
actually... two taiwan forum....
http://bbs.cjdby.net/viewthread.php?tid=371547
on second thoughts... i think the last one is a china forum....
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wait for the south asian clones to show up ........
neways ... I'll bet a dollar that some publications there will have glory stories of indian sukhois pwnzing our vipers .... -
they already did that way back in 2004 in their newspaper... which the IAF refuse to confirm... while our chief of air force hinted that the opposite had happened..Originally posted by Fatum:wait for the south asian clones to show up ........
neways ... I'll bet a dollar that some publications there will have glory stories of indian sukhois pwnzing our vipers .... -
everyone likes to scratch their own balls ... (though some more than the others ... :lolOriginally posted by tripwire:they already did that way back in 2004 in their newspaper... which the IAF refuse to confirm... while our chief of air force hinted that the opposite had happened.. 
but methinks the only country that can truly lay claim to having the best fighter pilots in the world is Israel ...
their chaps had an exercise with the Indians too didn't they ? ... wonder how the Indian press reported that .... did they pwnzed the Israelis too ? ....
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yup... the good news for us is... we aint the ones scratching our balls... its the taiwanese....Originally posted by Fatum:everyone likes to scratch their own balls ... (though some more than the others ... :lol
but methinks the only country that can truly lay claim to having the best fighter pilots in the world is Israel ...
their chaps had an exercise with the Indians too didn't they ? ... wonder how the Indian press reported that .... did they pwnzed the Israelis too ? ....
had the claims been made from a singapore source... i would just close one eyes... but when the news is from a third party... now ... that is worth taking a good second look... -
If the Taiwanese did say that RSAF F16 may have trounced the SU330, they were merely trying to reassure themselves that their F16 may also trounce the PLAAF SU30.
Don't take it the wrong way. Otherwise "zi zuo duo qing". -
Never mind who scratches whose balls. Ultimately, the best trained pilot, the best maintained plane, and constantly upgraded equipment will determine the outcome of any engagement.
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The IDF are excellent in nearly every area.Originally posted by Fatum:everyone likes to scratch their own balls ... (though some more than the others ... :lol
but methinks the only country that can truly lay claim to having the best fighter pilots in the world is Israel ...
their chaps had an exercise with the Indians too didn't they ? ... wonder how the Indian press reported that .... did they pwnzed the Israelis too ? ....
But you also have to take into account that they often fought against less well-trained Arab pilots.
If they go up against Russians or Americans and consistently top them then you can say they are the best in the world. -
Well........ we need to take this news with a pinch of salt. I read before that our F-5S/T have shot down before an F-18 during one of those exercise with the other countries. So can we say F-5S/T is better than the F-18 and that it can P-own F-18. NO!!! Just bcos there is an isolated case of such event, we cannot conclude F-5 is superior to F-18. Unless we can get a large consistent data of F-5 defeating F-18, or perhaps in real war engagements, we can just rule that that particular RSAF pilot is more well trained, his opponent is less trained or even bcos the situation favours him/her. Same for this F-16 exercise, we cannot be for sure wad are the parameters involved in the training............
One thing is observable, in the first link from Taiwan, why do all those PRC forummers get so worked out and start talking abt using nukes here and there? i mean it was the IAF involved, not as if it was the PLAAF....... -
so can the raptor take on any other bird anywhere anytime?
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which is why i wish to read the article myself and see what's really in it before jumping to conclusion.Originally posted by chino65:If the Taiwanese did say that RSAF F16 may have trounced the SU330, they were merely trying to reassure themselves that their F16 may also trounce the PLAAF SU30.
Don't take it the wrong way. Otherwise "zi zuo duo qing". -
ultimately... there is a limit to how far trainning can go... and how superior an operation system can be...Originally posted by Bionic Animals:Never mind who scratches whose balls. Ultimately, the best trained pilot, the best maintained plane, and constantly upgraded equipment will determine the outcome of any engagement.
while such parameters no doubt have a strong influence... the platform and the onboard technology is important too... otherwise singapore and other countries wont be spending billions introducing new planes and weapons. -
its true that one swallow does not make a spring... but its undeniable that such an event would not go unnoticed and a serious AAR will be conducted to understand wat actually happen...Originally posted by equlus84:Well........ we need to take this news with a pinch of salt. I read before that our F-5S/T have shot down before an F-18 during one of those exercise with the other countries. So can we say F-5S/T is better than the F-18 and that it can P-own F-18. NO!!! Just bcos there is an isolated case of such event, we cannot conclude F-5 is superior to F-18. Unless we can get a large consistent data of F-5 defeating F-18, or perhaps in real war engagements, we can just rule that that particular RSAF pilot is more well trained, his opponent is less trained or even bcos the situation favours him/her. Same for this F-16 exercise, we cannot be for sure wad are the parameters involved in the training............
One thing is observable, in the first link from Taiwan, why do all those PRC forummers get so worked out and start talking abt using nukes here and there? i mean it was the IAF involved, not as if it was the PLAAF.......
hopefully someone can upload the magazine and let us see if there are really any gems worth digging... for our benefits. -
I am not sure on who exactly get trashed...but one thing is for sure RSAF is considered a young airforce with no battle experience whatsoever, further more our F-16C/D is of a differentclass from that of the Su-30MKI.
So in the very likely event that the RSAF trashed the IAF, we certainly have something to be proud of. -
but methinks the only country that can truly lay claim to having the best fighter pilots in the world is Israel ...
nope i think other than united states it would be Hellenic Air Force and the Turkish Airforce. Both are the most experienced in terms of pilot. Both operate Block 52 viper and have dogfigting each other every day. Both airforce have exellent maintanence and upgrade and training. -
i was lookin at one of mindef posted picture of one of the joint excerise picture could not see SU 30. So I was wondering if they stop the flying as it is political sensitive.
I thought IAF was at 1 point considering procuring the teen? was it after the excerise or before the excerise? -
Yeah, the Turks(in the ancient times, Persia) and the Greeks have been loggerheads since Alexander's time...Originally posted by tankfanatic:nope i think other than united states it would be Hellenic Air Force and the Turkish Airforce. Both are the most experienced in terms of pilot. Both operate Block 52 viper and have dogfigting each other every day. Both airforce have exellent maintanence and upgrade and training. -
the turks arent persians.the iranians are.the turks are asiatic.The are more mongols.Originally posted by tankee1981:Yeah, the Turks(in the ancient times, Persia) and the Greeks have been loggerheads since Alexander's time...
This greek-turk thing started in the 800's during the byzintine era -
went to NLB today... found the magazine... and read it.
there was no mention of RSAF beating the IAF under the defence section.. i read 3 times to make sure i didnt miss it.
undeterred... i read on.. and finally found it on the second half of the magazine on issue related to AV-8 harrier...
its just a short 2 liner... no details.. just a simple sentence that RSAF beat the IAF and "wash away the american shame".... something like that...
unsatisfied... i went back 2 dozen issue and found a another issue on cope india 2004 and 2005 with the USAF F-15 and F-16 vs the IAF SU-30... more detail... and probably gave an insight on why the F-16 would succeed where the F-15 failed...
read enough to know... that the IAF didnt really beat up the F-15 or the F-16... so much restriction was placed on the USAF aircraft... i think our F-5S and the retired A-4S also stand a very good chance in winning the USAF F-15.
ran out of time... and left... will go back to NLB... hopefully can find something related to RSAF vs IAF... but chances... 50/50...
if i do find it... i will post it.. maybe even upload some scans... -
Found this article on the other forum for reference. anyway take it as a grain of salt. It sound like a different excerise than the one publish in the chinese magazine. by the way also have to mention this is cut off from MY topics.
As of the report on Indian MKI defeat Sg F-16 .. no report ? It's an open secret and well known story :
"Exercise Report
Singapore's top guns have been engaging in dogfights with their Indian counterparts in the open skies over Gwalior in western India in a 15-day exercise which ends today. And they have fared well, considering that the Indian Air Force includes veterans with real battle experience.
"It was a good exercise, which allowed our Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) pilots to interact with a well-established air force with highly-professional operators," said a Ministry of Defence (Mindef) spokesman.
Key to the exercise were two factors: One, it provided the RSAF access to new air training space and two, to engage for the first time, with Russian-made aircraft using different weapon platforms.
Six F-16 Fighting Falcon jets from the RSAF, led by Detachment Commander Lt Col Anil Sanker, 39, engaged in aerial combat with aircraft deployed by the Indian Air Force, which included the top-of-the-line Sukhoi-30, MiG-27, and MiG-29 and the Mirage 2000.
The MiGs and the F-16s are comparable in terms of manoeuvrability, sophistication of avionics and weapons systems, say analysts.
Both Singapore and Indian pilots tested their skills in one-on-one dogfights, which escalated to two-on-two clashes and eventually involved up to as many as 10 aircraft.
Considering that the Indians, in their Sukhoi-30s, triumphed over a visiting American team in their F-15 Eagles in exercises earlier this year at Gwalior, how did the RSAF pilots, who have fared well in international competitions, do?
A Times of India news report, quoting IAF sources, said the Indian pilots proved more than a match for their visitors."=====> other details deleted -- confidential maaaa....
Anyway Sg Mindef are very very eager to acquire some knowledge of Sukhoi in the exercise in term of manoeuvrability, sophistication of avionics and weapons systems knowing that MY is purchasing Su-30MKM. THe same with India on F-16 should Pakistan acquire F-16 in future. -
have you check the official RSAF reply to the indian news report?Originally posted by Arapahoe:Found this article on the other forum for reference. anyway take it as a grain of salt. It sound like a different excerise than the one publish in the chinese magazine. by the way also have to mention this is cut off from MY topics.
As of the report on Indian MKI defeat Sg F-16 .. no report ? It's an open secret and well known story :
"Exercise Report
Singapore's top guns have been engaging in dogfights with their Indian counterparts in the open skies over Gwalior in western India in a 15-day exercise which ends today. And they have fared well, considering that the Indian Air Force includes veterans with real battle experience.
"It was a good exercise, which allowed our Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) pilots to interact with a well-established air force with highly-professional operators," said a Ministry of Defence (Mindef) spokesman.
Key to the exercise were two factors: One, it provided the RSAF access to new air training space and two, to engage for the first time, with Russian-made aircraft using different weapon platforms.
Six F-16 Fighting Falcon jets from the RSAF, led by Detachment Commander Lt Col Anil Sanker, 39, engaged in aerial combat with aircraft deployed by the Indian Air Force, which included the top-of-the-line Sukhoi-30, MiG-27, and MiG-29 and the Mirage 2000.
The MiGs and the F-16s are comparable in terms of manoeuvrability, sophistication of avionics and weapons systems, say analysts.
Both Singapore and Indian pilots tested their skills in one-on-one dogfights, which escalated to two-on-two clashes and eventually involved up to as many as 10 aircraft.
Considering that the Indians, in their Sukhoi-30s, triumphed over a visiting American team in their F-15 Eagles in exercises earlier this year at Gwalior, how did the RSAF pilots, who have fared well in international competitions, do?
A Times of India news report, quoting IAF sources, said the Indian pilots proved more than a match for their visitors."=====> other details deleted -- confidential maaaa....
Anyway Sg Mindef are very very eager to acquire some knowledge of Sukhoi in the exercise in term of manoeuvrability, sophistication of avionics and weapons systems knowing that MY is purchasing Su-30MKM. THe same with India on F-16 should Pakistan acquire F-16 in future.
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2004/oct/25oct04_nr.html.print.html?Status=1
its also good to know that our guys are trainning against SU-30 for the last 3 years... while our malaysian friends are just starting to learn how to fly one...
and the statement by RSAF:it would not be courteous for us to comment on the specific outcomes of the exercise.
has always bugged me.... why would it not be courteous to comment on the specific outcome of the exercise... unless.....
maybe we shouldnt read too much into it....
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give the IAF some credit lah ... they have a billion strong population pool to pick from, and they did pwnz the pakistanis many times over in several conflicts ... (though they themselves got pwnzed by the Chinese )
so maybe they do know something about combat worth learning from ... it's just the assorted clones and their press that makes me laugh ... -
I meant the Persians did have confrontations with Greeks in the same geographical territory before the Turks which came into the region much later. CheersOriginally posted by |-|05|:the turks arent persians.the iranians are.the turks are asiatic.The are more mongols.
This greek-turk thing started in the 800's during the byzintine era -
understood Mindef reply. I was just thinking that given that our units are not tested the first exercise will demonstrate the abilities to confront the unknown.Originally posted by tripwire:has always bugged me.... why would it not be courteous to comment on the specific outcome of the exercise... unless.....
maybe we shouldnt read too much into it....