What's the next land Fighting Vehicle?
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Originally posted by CM06:
In the interest of history, the Scots ...erm.. still go to war with bag pipes all the way to Desert Storm.
1) WWII - The Scots go to war with bag pipes.
"The bagpipes are the traditional instrument of the people of the Scottish highlands and have been carried into battle with Scottish soldiers from the days of William Wallace to the Falklands War of 1982. "
http://www.awm.gov.au/commemoration/customs/piper.htm
"In the UK, the Highland regiment tradition reaches back to the middle ages and even to Roman times, and includes the names of many large scale battles-- Culloden Moor, Waterloo, Balaclava, the Somme, Jerusalem, Dunkirk, El Alamein, Liri Valley, Gold and Sword Beaches, Singapore, and even up to the Falklands war and Desert Storm."
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/bunker/3351/allmen/pipers.htmlOriginally posted by CM06:
No, because tanks can't move through a swamp, so why plant mines there?
6) Mines they plant in a swamp is it?
However, the VC planted punji stakes and other goodies in the swamps.
For that matter, infantry has lots of difficulties in swamps. Allied troops who tried to escape through Malayan swamps had great difficulties - slow, getting lost, no food, disease etc. Technology may have changed, swamps have not.Originally posted by CM06:
I was quoting hisstory.
Now Imagine points 3 - 6 are ALL along that one track you have to go. Trust me on that sometimes there is only one track for you to go from your current position to target location. Would you want to go on the road?
Got tracks can bash? Y Got wheels can bash? N. Firepower difference? None diff. So that's what i mean by dont remove an option.
Wheels are great for urban though.Originally posted by CM06:
I didn't find anything you said offensive. Disagreement is not offensive at all. Only when personal insults start, then it spoils things.
No offense ah. I bad mood. All these talk remind me i have to go back in july for ICT
Originally posted by CM06:
hehe... I don't recall any agreements between the 2 sides.
Oh edit: You will realised that It makes perfect sense for the Japs to use the tracks since you already mention -both sides- agreed to fight it out on the tracks.
The fact that all the big battles were fought on the roads, were due to circumstances already quoted. It was a blitzkreig-style offensive. It's not a slug-fest like the Vietnam War.
It's all cool, dude, you are right about all that you said about not making sense to go on the road.
But the fact that both sides fought hard to own the roads and bridges was to try and make it safe to use the roads so they can move fast, or prevent the other side from moving fast.
Back to topic.
I am not advocating wheels or tracks, I am merely trying to paint the scenario of what is needed in SAF. If we already have this or that, what do we need next? etc... -
Ya i know you not saying for pure wheels. I will be pissed if SAF does that though. That one's asking for trouble.
It's perfectly alright to have wheeled AFV/LTs that's air transportable though. Way more effective to deploy behind enemy lines, penetrate and disrupt them at form up points - hit and run, delay enemy from pushing forces forward then slowly fight a delay battle to link up with the normal advancing forces.
One more thing regarding as tactics, while effective, the force is kinda without support ie casualty rate is very high. Same with block force that you deploy behind enemy forces to "hammer/anvil" them.
Yes we still need a LT even with BMS,arty,AH,blahblahblah.
I'm a little sad that the old one's been scrap.
A little stuff regarding LTs, it's basically a heavier AFV with a main gun.
Advantages - large calibre LOS / FS weapon.
Less maintainence/cheaper to build/maintain than MBT.
Mobile, probably RC capable, air transportable,can be wheeled.
Able to react quicker in ambush vs ATGM AFV ie can defend itself better.
Cheap rounds vs ATGM.
Disad - protection for crew is only as good as the AFV body.
Main gun limitations in terms of penetration due to lesser recoil requirement. Short Engagement range ~2km.
Ammo carried is less and most probably HE/HEAT/HESH/AP only.
Smaller body = auto loader = usually slower reload.
Unable to maintain covering fire the way a CG AFV is able to.
Fire on the move...?
Regarding my thoughts of Missile tanks - requirements will be LOAL and VLS - one is to improve crew survivalbiliity the other to save space and reduce combat disabling. -
I suppose by wheeled light tank replacement this is what they're aiming for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Gun_System
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-mgs.htm
It would be easy to convert the existing Terrex hulls for this purpose:Various weapon systems can be fitted on the roof, including a remote weapon station armed with a 40mm automatic grenade launcher and a 7.62mm coaxial machine gun or a complete stabilized turret armed with a 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon and 7.62mm coaxial machine gun. Additional 7.62mm machine guns can be mounted over the rear troop compartment. In addition, the vehicle can be configured to carry varying combat payloads - from turreted weapon stations (including 105 mm tank guns) to rocket launchers. The modular top deck allows for quick configuration change.
I hope we get more Leopards though, seeing that the Malaysians are planning for 2~3 more brigades of PT-91 -
The number of Leopards declared is not the entire number which we will eventually get.Originally posted by Typhoon:I suppose by wheeled light tank replacement this is what they're aiming for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Gun_System
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-mgs.htm
It would be easy to convert the existing Terrex hulls for this purpose:
I hope we get more Leopards though, seeing that the Malaysians are planning for 2~3 more brigades of PT-91
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what happen to the notion of the problems in having wheel because it get stuck in the yellow muds? Fighting concept have changed but our terrain hasn't change.
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Actually our terrain HAS changed... So has Malaysia's...and many other parts of the world.Originally posted by Arapahoe:what happen to the notion of the problems in having wheel because it get stuck in the yellow muds? Fighting concept have changed but our terrain hasn't change.
There are now much, much more paved roads, scondary roads than there ever was 50 years ago.
Any army considering a rapid advance would be mad not to try to control and use the road networks. Armies had been using roads since WW1, WW2, Afghanistan, Korea etc. It is a misconception that nobody use the roads during war.
As much as I am not in favour of wheels, this is the reality today. Wheels are faster on roads.
So I won't be surprised SAF will not get a tracked LT. I actually see very little urgent need for one. Our AMX-13S1 will serve on for another 5 to 10 years, I think. Though in steadily dwindling numbers.
As someone already said, SAF is likely to get wheels whether some of us like it or not.
IMO, SAF WILL DEFINITELY want to field properly-equipped RDF brigades soon. And RDF need wheels to be fast on roads and possible air deployment. -
According to JDW today, we'll be getting 18 MLRS systems and 3 battalions worth of wheeled IFVs.
The Terrex is but one of many contenders. -
Agree, wheels move a lot faster on roads, and would provide better fuel economy when traversing through paved surfaces. A healthy number of those should be made available, and those with amphibious -swim capabilities.
Of course, the beauty of tracks would really show when the paved surfaces start disappearing from bombings, shelling, and other counter mobility operations. So we cant live without tracked vehicles as well.
Anyone has a list of contenders for this series of wheeled fighting vehicles? Besides terrex, I'd imagine the Stryker/LAV-25 series would be included, and perhaps BTR-90? Centauro? Pirahna? Pandur2? -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
woah ! ... for real ? ...
According to JDW today, we'll be getting 18 MLRS systems and 3 battalions worth of wheeled IFVs.
The Terrex is but one of many contenders.
post up extract here leh ... -
Singapore plans multiple rocket launcher, IFV acquisitionsOriginally posted by Fatum:woah ! ... for real ? ...
post up extract here leh ...
Robert Karniol JDW Asia-Pacific Bureau Chief
Bangkok
Singapore is seeking to acquire its first multiple rocket system and first wheeled IFV
The Singapore Army is enhancing its firepower and mobility capabilities with the planned acquisition of its first multiple rocket launcher (MRL) and its first wheeled infantry fighting vehicle (IFV).
The MRL requirement is for 18 systems, with the request for proposals currently in progress. First deliveries are expected in about 18 months.
Contenders for the contract remain unclear, but sources told Jane's that talks on the programme are under way with the US. This suggests that potential candidates include the 227 mm Multiple Launch Rocket System and the High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System, both from Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control.
The IFV programme is aimed to equip three battalions, with initial deliveries expected around the end of 2008. The locally developed Singapore Technologies (ST) Kinetics 8 x 8 Terrex AV81 IFV is among several platforms under consideration; other options remain unknown.
The army most recently upgraded its artillery with the introduction of ST Kinetics' Pegasus 155 mm/39 calibre Singapore Lightweight Howitzer, unveiled in late 2005. This supplemented the ST Kinetics Primus 155 mm/39 calibre self-propelled artillery system that was revealed two years earlier.
The wheeled IFV would complement two tracked platforms in current service: the ST Kinetics Bionix IFV, operationally deployed since 1999; and the older Giat Industries AMX-10P infantry combat vehicle.
The Singapore Army will further bolster its capabilities with deliveries, due to start in mid-2008, of 66 ex-German Armed Forces Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks, together with an additional 30 platforms earmarked as spares. These are intended to replace AMX-13 light tanks.
The planned acquisitions are linked to a broader force modernisation programme currently in progress and dubbed the third-generation Singapore Armed Forces.
courtesy of YF from the other side -
wow now economy good, government raise GST, got alot more money to spend on this kind of stuff.
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Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Dunno accurate or not. The no of Leo 2 they quoted is already wrong. Based on latest report its 90+ Leo 2 to 30 odd spares.
[b]Singapore plans multiple rocket launcher, IFV acquisitions
Robert Karniol JDW Asia-Pacific Bureau Chief
Bangkok
Singapore is seeking to acquire its first multiple rocket system and first wheeled IFV
The Singapore Army is enhancing its firepower and mobility capabilities with the planned acquisition of its first multiple rocket launcher (MRL) and its first wheeled infantry fighting vehicle (IFV).
The MRL requirement is for 18 systems, with the request for proposals currently in progress. First deliveries are expected in about 18 months.
Contenders for the contract remain unclear, but sources told Jane's that talks on the programme are under way with the US. This suggests that potential candidates include the 227 mm Multiple Launch Rocket System and the High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System, both from Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control.
The IFV programme is aimed to equip three battalions, with initial deliveries expected around the end of 2008. The locally developed Singapore Technologies (ST) Kinetics 8 x 8 Terrex AV81 IFV is among several platforms under consideration; other options remain unknown.
The army most recently upgraded its artillery with the introduction of ST Kinetics' Pegasus 155 mm/39 calibre Singapore Lightweight Howitzer, unveiled in late 2005. This supplemented the ST Kinetics Primus 155 mm/39 calibre self-propelled artillery system that was revealed two years earlier.
The wheeled IFV would complement two tracked platforms in current service: the ST Kinetics Bionix IFV, operationally deployed since 1999; and the older Giat Industries AMX-10P infantry combat vehicle.
The Singapore Army will further bolster its capabilities with deliveries, due to start in mid-2008, of 66 ex-German Armed Forces Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks, together with an additional 30 platforms earmarked as spares. These are intended to replace AMX-13 light tanks.
The planned acquisitions are linked to a broader force modernisation programme currently in progress and dubbed the third-generation Singapore Armed Forces.
courtesy of YF from the other side
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Hooray!!! MLRS are the way to go!!
Once again, we have MY to thank for giving us the green light to go out and buy more destructive devices.
In comparison, each MLRS can lay down so much more ordnance on a target in a fraction of the time it takes one tube of arty. This leaves enemy in targetted area less time to take cover.
And also shoot and scoot in a matter of a few minutes. You can put 5 launchers in 5 very different locations (e.g. 1 in AMK, 1 in Woodlands etc), all target the same area, fire off 20 rounds each in a few seconds, and disappear in 5 different directions.
Enemy counter fire or airstrike will come too late.
And the range is much longer. This will now put KL well within striking range of our arty regiment.
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Tactical uses aside, the MLRS is a terror weapon of sorts.
In WW2 massive Russian MLRS strikes broke many German advances as well as wet many pants.
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THE ARMS RACE IS HEATING UP
This purchase is also a clear signal to the Malaysians that they should stop introducing new weapon systems and heating up the arms race in this region.
"What they buy, we will buy even more" is the message. -
.double post
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Holy crap...2% GST = more toys
Anyway, its true that we will do whatever MY will do and more..
HiMARS is like a 12 inch gauge shotgun with sniper rifle accuracy...
This is a public open arms buying posting so...you can guess what we do in the background...
The RDF is coming to open now.. can tell that it's a Brigade level force too. -
Oh yeah STimes coverage of the NDP picture today..just said
Watch out for the state flag Chinook being Escorted by 4 SUPER PUMAS......I'm pretty sure SPs have longbow radar and hellfire missiles.... FAIL.. -
Basically the US make a very wrong move on Strykers. But that does not mean that wheel amoured vehicles are all bad .......Originally posted by cairocks:Just saw this about the Strykers. Now the US is beginning to question if they made the right choice of going on all wheels and not track.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,135721,00.html?wh=news
A lot have to say about the design of stryker itself. Like our terrex seem to have incorporate more advance design then styker with v shapes hull which is designed to take land-mine hit. -
if u ever play games wher u have a chance to ride in a stryker u kno how bad it is compared to the humvee.... its pretty big for ppl AT u....but games are games iknow....
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My guess is if it is true that SAF is getting MLRS, it will not be used as in traditional arty role but as a land based strategic precision strike using LR GPS guided missiles as in US ATACMS or Israeli EXTRA.Originally posted by chino65:Hooray!!! MLRS are the way to go!!
Once again, we have MY to thank for giving us the green light to go out and buy more destructive devices.
In comparison, each MLRS can lay down so much more ordnance on a target in a fraction of the time it takes one tube of arty. This leaves enemy in targetted area less time to take cover.
And also shoot and scoot in a matter of a few minutes. You can put 5 launchers in 5 very different locations (e.g. 1 in AMK, 1 in Woodlands etc), all target the same area, fire off 20 rounds each in a few seconds, and disappear in 5 different directions.
Enemy counter fire or airstrike will come too late.
And the range is much longer. This will now put KL well within striking range of our arty regiment.
...
Tactical uses aside, the MLRS is a terror weapon of sorts.
In WW2 massive Russian MLRS strikes broke many German advances as well as wet many pants.
...
THE ARMS RACE IS HEATING UP
This purchase is also a clear signal to the Malaysians that they should stop introducing new weapon systems and heating up the arms race in this region.
"What they buy, we will buy even more" is the message.
Read this for thr future of MLRS:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1077112&C=landwar
Not as traditonal arty pieces especially those using unguided rockets as even the US army has already stop buying unguided rocket but going for LR GMLRS and ATACMS.
Here the quote:In January 2006, the U.S. Army announced that the majority of (possibly all?) future purchases of tactical MLRS rockets will be M31s with unitary warhead. ( i.e. GPS guided, single warhead)
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/mlrs.html
Here another quote:The US Army is currently working on developing and fielding unitary (one large warhead instead of submunitions) rocket and ATACMS variants, as well as a guided rocket.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M270_Multiple_Launch_Rocket_System
MLRS has recently been upgraded with guided rounds. Phase I testing of a guided unitary round (XM31) was completed on an accelerated schedule in March 2006. Due to an Urgent Need Statement the guided unitary round has already been fielded and used in action in Iraq.[1] Lockheed Martin also received a contract to convert existing M30 DPICM GMLRS rockets to the XM31 unitary variant
So from the above, US is not going for any unguided rocket like the M26 but all single warhead GPS guided GMLRS and ATACMS, I believe SAF is going toward the same direction. -
The latest confirmed number of Leopard 2A4 MBTs is 102 active + at least 30 for use as "spares."Originally posted by sgf:Dunno accurate or not. The no of Leo 2 they quoted is already wrong. Based on latest report its 90+ Leo 2 to 30 odd spares.
This new purchase of 18 MLRS systems is enough to equip 1 battalion, but given MINDEF's past procurement patterns subsequent batches may be expected.
Additional MLRS purchases beyond this first batch would give every one of our combined arms and armoured divisions the flexibility of using tube or rocket artillery against adversaries depending on the situation. -
given past record... 54 primus, 54 FH-88, 54 FH-2000, 54 pegasus..... would it be another 54 HIMARS?Originally posted by ^Delta^:The latest confirmed number of Leopard 2A4 MBTs is 102 active + at least 30 for use as "spares."
This new purchase of 18 MLRS systems is enough to equip 1 battalion, but given MINDEF's past procurement patterns subsequent batches may be expected.
Additional MLRS purchases beyond this first batch would give every one of our combined arms and armoured divisions the flexibility of using tube or rocket artillery against adversaries depending on the situation.
figures from wiki.... -
Looks like what I predicted came true. I have speculated back then when we bought the Leopards, that we would buy wheeled AFVs to complement the Leopards, as 1) this is what global trends represent, and also 2) the combined tracked and wheeled package will completely replace the SM1 in quantity as well.