Does the mighty SAF have any weaknesses?
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Reservist don't do that. It is always the untrained civilian militia with machetes who exacted revenge onto other ethnic group. Do not compare with atrocities committed by American drafted soldier in vietnam. It happened but very small in percentage and not condoned by their higher echelon.Originally posted by mancha:Reservists! So called operationally ready troops.
It always the soldiers from these forces that rapist, mass killers of civilians, and looters abound. Part-time soldiers are more apt to do a whole village in retaliation for a comrade.
Reservist are actually trained with the same kind of discipline standard as to the regulars. Just that after time come they revert back to civilian to be recalled if the need arises. -
Somehow I gave up trying to explain to people that they should correct the misconception that the SAF is outnumbered.Originally posted by jondizzle foshizzle:The SAF has pretty top of the line military technology but not enough of it if you catch my meaning. We lack the numbers. We may have an advanced navy and airforce but not a very large one.
When it comes to numbers, in many aspects we outclass that of our potential adversaries both in numbers and individual unit quality. Take our armoured force for instance.
But... nvm... anyone willing to elaborate further is welcome. -
lol... I wanted to type the exact same thing. But I think you overestimate some elements though.Originally posted by ^Delta^:Somehow I gave up trying to explain to people that they should correct the misconception that the SAF is outnumbered.
When it comes to numbers, in many aspects we outclass that of our potential adversaries both in numbers and individual unit quality. Take our armoured force for instance.
But... nvm... anyone willing to elaborate further is welcome. -
weaknesses... Bad LEADERS, Commanders
weak in command. many a time, i saw man move not on command but just for moving. when fire fight start, all man stop and wait as no command was given.
weak in weaponry, M203, LAW, SAW, GPMG, 84MMRR, Mortar etc. weak knowledge in map reading, terrain study, troops deployment etc.
example in weaponry. enemy in vehicle driving away.(to get away from you) commander ask man to chase on foot for the kill. why not used LAW or M203 for the kill? (maybe he want to train his man IPPT)
example in troops deployment. embankment. instate of deploy man behind the embankment overlooking the killing ground, junctions or enemy activities. commander deploy the man on open space or some low ground area where the man can see nothing.
weak in tactics. just don't know what to do. poor knowledge.
as for thinking solider, our man are still not thinking when the higher command are not doing the thinking.Bad leaders are not those who made bad decisions but those who never make any.
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I think SAF has built itself and probably reach a level of plateau that had never reached before especially by end of 2010. so does its abilities to deploy together in combine forces.
In any organization if it gets big there is a need to tighten the process and communication in its scope of business. But because SAF have to anticipate security threats assessment the lack of real world experience does not allow planners to fine tune its execution performance. This may result in the inabilities to solve multiple problems at different command level in an unexpected situation.
An example of assumption, in this forum we see writers assume that when crisis happen Mindef or Gov will take the necessary steps to evacuate or transit the SAF into states of readiness. But is that a realistic assumption?
What we donÂ’t anticipate kills. Event such as Pearl Harbor attack and the 9-11 attack are example of prepared but not anticipate.
what are your thoughts? -
I think what you mentioned points to the big problem of NOT HAVING BEEN IN BATTLE.Originally posted by Joshua1975:weaknesses... Bad LEADERS, Commanders
weak in command. many a time, i saw man move not on command but just for moving. when fire fight start, all man stop and wait as no command was given.
weak in weaponry, M203, LAW, SAW, GPMG, 84MMRR, Mortar etc. weak knowledge in map reading, terrain study, troops deployment etc.
example in weaponry. enemy in vehicle driving away.(to get away from you) commander ask man to chase on foot for the kill. why not used LAW or M203 for the kill? (maybe he want to train his man IPPT)
example in troops deployment. embankment. instate of deploy man behind the embankment overlooking the killing ground, junctions or enemy activities. commander deploy the man on open space or some low ground area where the man can see nothing.
weak in tactics. just don't know what to do. poor knowledge.
There is simply no way that training - any amount of it - can teach you to react to real situations. Simple things like how to shoot up a fleeing vehicles. If you have never shot at one before, how can training teach you what to do?
So, in the absence of real combat, how can we make our training more realistic?
Any suggestions?
For example:
Would airsoft or paintball for FIBUA FOFO be useful? Airsoft hurts, and pain is a damn good teacher.
Better than either of these, some armies use some kind of training ammo for skirmishing. They are some kind of low powered rounds fired from your regular rifle and has plastic heads or something. Anyone know of this? -
Sometimes, more of common sense and less of textbook doctrine works.
I think all commanders and combatants should read up on the US Army's FM 3-24, as a good reference of how simple observation, reaction and common sense can work in situations of battle.
Not to use it as a doctrine though, but just to widen their minds. Helps to see things from the eyes and ears of another armed forces that has to improvise daily on the ground.
Flexibility, common sense, situational awareness. We don't even have to get into the technology as of yet, these are human software elements that have got to be trained. I see a lot of commanders without these even in NS. -
thats the main problem! reading!
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Better than either of these, some armies use some kind of training ammo for skirmishing. They are some kind of low powered rounds fired from your regular rifle and has plastic heads or something. Anyone know of this?
Simunition!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simunition -
Be careful my friend... Simunition ammos has many types and could be lethalOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
if fired to directly to people.
The correct type should be the non lethal training ammo. -
Hey dude!Originally posted by moca:Where u learn this?
Hollywood is it?
Talk about things u know - otherwise, zip it.
In all conflicts, most atrocities are committed by conscripts.
Go read up on it.
In Iraq, compare the behaviour of the regular British forces against that of the American home guards deployed there.
You dont like what people say then, plug it -
Not all conscripts, but rather troops who lack training in POW management, urban patrol and cultural training.Originally posted by mancha:Hey dude!
In all conflicts, most atrocities are committed by conscripts.
Go read up on it.
In Iraq, compare the behaviour of the regular British forces against that of the American home guards deployed there.
You dont like what people say then, plug it -
Yeah, plug YOU.Originally posted by mancha:Hey dude!
In all conflicts, most atrocities are committed by conscripts.
Go read up on it.
In Iraq, compare the behaviour of the regular British forces against that of the American home guards deployed there.
You dont like what people say then, plug it
You should send your report to SAF cos guess, what? We're ALL conscripts and oh dear... we are going to all commit attrocities. -
Haha, you've just called everyone here a potential rapist and baby-killer.Originally posted by mancha:Reservists! So called operationally ready troops.
It always the soldiers from these forces that rapist, mass killers of civilians, and looters abound. Part-time soldiers are more apt to do a whole village in retaliation for a comrade. -
it will be too late when "we" need to been in a battle in order to learn how to react to things like SHOOT AT FLEEING VEHICLES.Originally posted by moca:I think what you mentioned points to the big problem of NOT HAVING BEEN IN BATTLE.
There is simply no way that training - any amount of it - can teach you to react to real situations. Simple things like how to shoot up a fleeing vehicles. If you have never shot at one before, how can training teach you what to do?
So, in the absence of real combat, how can we make our training more realistic?
Any suggestions?
For example:
Would airsoft or paintball for FIBUA FOFO be useful? Airsoft hurts, and pain is a damn good teacher.
Better than either of these, some armies use some kind of training ammo for skirmishing. They are some kind of low powered rounds fired from your regular rifle and has plastic heads or something. Anyone know of this?
during training, a commander who can not make full used of his sections, platoon, company or even battalion weapon systems, what is there to say anymore when war is here. this is the kind of weakness my point at.
REALISTIC? with simulate enemies in play, casualties occurs, enemies fleeing in front of you. why? you need to see blood in order for you to feel real?
and your suggestions looks more like a game.
SAF can equip with the best hardware, "operators" not up to it, leaders can not handle stress, we can all forget about it.
think about it, how many time/s do guys in here hear a sect comd or PC order a LAW gunner or M203 gunner to engage enemy in a bunker, fleeing on vehicle etc? i never hear any and i must remind them what they have. even with a reminder from me, these so call "leader" still can not react. -
I believe the weakness of SAF is due to mainly 2 glaring issues which is namely elitism and doctrine.
Elitism, is very evident in all sectors of SAF. For example when a major exercise is conducted and concluded, senior commanders are rewarded with a big feast. That time during Wallaby, when the brigade exercise has ended, all the officers were entitled to this feast with flowing red wine, fine seafood dining on expensive cutleries under white tents with compliments of music from the PA system. How abt the rest, the NCO and men? We get to only eye-power their food and we have to buy our own food from the canteen. These creates an environment of elitism as officers are perceived as a rich men, privileged club. Such treatment will only dampen the morale of the troops under their direct command and create general un-happiness. These preferential treatment will only further encourage scholar-general syndrome and attract soldiers that are interested not by the nature of the job but by how lavish and spoilt the life an officer leads. Allowing retired generals to head GIC/ GLC or join the men in white has bred a generation of generals motivated by wealth and lust for future power in the civilian world.
The second problem is doctrines. We are the classic products of our rigid, stiff and too orthodox education system. Most of our exercises are too typical and hardly deviate from the typical setup. For example, we tend to assume the enemies will fight this way, use his equipment this way, or his modus operandi is this way. Thus our exercise dun really push the commanders to think of possible contigencies or alternative fighting manuveurs. Our exercises also always assume the enemy has an overall lower firepower or are lower technology than us. -
Elitsm? Hard to say but I would not be surprised to find that in Singapore.
HOWEVER, there needs to be some seperation between the officers and men, as discovered in studies, hence the ritual and stuff that tends to set them apart from the Non Commisioned ranks. Some degree of seperation is needed to make sure the officers can give orders that they might be reluctant to give if they associated too closely to the men (such as sending them to their certain deaths).
But of course this works both ways. Too close to the men and you stop thinking like a commander, too far away and you become aloof and lose the enlisted men's respect. -
The way i see it, we have at least 3 potential weakness that can be exploited by our enemies:
1. We are largely untested (I'm referring to brigade and above level). We can plan, simulate and exercise all we want, but our forces are largely untested in combat (pls correct me if I'm wrong - East Timor is so far our largest combat deployment, right?) such as: (a) how to respond when things go wrong, (b) can various units co-ordinate under stress or when things don't go according to plan or training etc.
2. Staying power. How long can we stay and persevere? Most of our exercises are over in a few days. And given our doctrine is pre-emptive in nature, we will probably not be fighting on S'porean soil (less motivation to continue fighting?). Also, whether we have enough stockpiles of petrol, water, food, combat and medical supplies if the war becomes prolonged, like US is in Iraq?
3. Can we adapt? True, our weaponry mostly outclasses our oponents', but they may come up with new tactics (e.g., guerilla warfare), new devices (e.g., shaped-charge IEDs that can penetrate even Chobam armour). Can we adapt to different scenarios, different type of warfare?
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but the organization is getting big and more sophiscated that means that you need real experience to plan.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Sometimes, more of common sense and less of textbook doctrine works.
I think all commanders and combatants should read up on the US Army's FM 3-24, as a good reference of how simple observation, reaction and common sense can work in situations of battle.
Not to use it as a doctrine though, but just to widen their minds. Helps to see things from the eyes and ears of another armed forces that has to improvise daily on the ground.
Flexibility, common sense, situational awareness. We don't even have to get into the technology as of yet, these are human software elements that have got to be trained. I see a lot of commanders without these even in NS. -
go to war. kick somali ass. if its a screw up at least SAF know that all these time they are wrong and the armed forces need to chnge and face reality. dont wait until facing a really trained enemy to learn mistake.
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BDE level ? Think OFE. That's all there is.Originally posted by OldBird69:The way i see it, we have at least 3 potential weakness that can be exploited by our enemies:
1. We are largely untested (I'm referring to brigade and above level). We can plan, simulate and exercise all we want, but our forces are largely untested in combat (pls correct me if I'm wrong - East Timor deployment is so far the largest combat deployment, right?) such as: (a) how to respond when things go wrong, (b) can various units co-ordinate under stress or when things don't go according to plans or training etc.
2. Staying power. How long can we stay and persevere? Most of our exercises are over in a few days. And given our doctrine is pre-emptive in nature, we will probably not be on S'porean soil (less motivation to continue fighting?). Also, whether we have enough stockpiles of petrol, water, food, combat and medical supplies if the war becomes prolonged, like US is in Iraq?
3. Can we adapt? True, our weaponry mostly outclasses our oponents', but they may come up with new tactics (e.g., guerilla warfare), new devices (e.g., shape-charged IEDs that can penetrate armour). Can we adapt to different scenarios, different type of warfare?
Regarding #2, ironic isn't it, that for a doctrine based on Forward Defence, we have doubts over whether we can sustain force projection abroad for a prolonged period of time. -
without those three elements, being in the midst of real experience will make you suffer.Originally posted by Arapahoe:but the organization is getting big and more sophiscated that means that you need real experience to plan.
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This is a bit side track. but refering to untested SAF.
If you were to put ground SAF into a real test which battle ground would be a good test
Iraq
Afghanistan
Peacekeeping Dafur.
Israel labanon border
E. Timor
S Korea, border patrol -
I tink we can only tell when a real war comes. Attitude wise, I think should be okay. You may not want to fight for ur govt. MAY... But will you for your family, your home, your frens and the man beside you?
I do agree that there's some leaders that really can't perform, but hey I believe we have good NCOs! The men can tell who's good and who's not and thank god, the whole SAF is not made up of totally useless officers. There are people who can lead too. -
MAY... But will you for your family, your home, your frens and the man beside you?
unless all of them pack up and leave the moment the war become inevitable?