Designated MArksman rifle
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With the changing of warfare and the demand for more accurate and precise shooting, should we look into a DMR type rifle for the Section?
I know US DMR is 7.62 caliber but I guess With the small frame of SIngaporean! I was thinking more of a 5.56 type rifle but using a much more potent 5.56 ammo like the 77 grain like the Mk 242 Mod 0 for the US forces! Maybe mount an ACOG 4 power scope or an Elcan scope . that would increase the lethality of the squad's long range capability.
The sharp shooter scope in my opinion is mounted way too high on the carrying handle thus an operator is at the wrong cheek placement! I wonder is SIngapore fielding sharpshooter scope on the SAR21 ! if so! what kind??
ANy Comments??
DaveC
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Looks heavy...Originally posted by davechng:With the changing of warfare and the demand for more accurate and precise shooting, should we look into a DMR type rifle for the Section?
I know US DMR is 7.62 caliber but I guess With the small frame of SIngaporean! I was thinking more of a 5.56 type rifle but using a much more potent 5.56 ammo like the 77 grain like the Mk 242 Mod 0 for the US forces! Maybe mount an ACOG 4 power scope or an Elcan scope . that would increase the lethality of the squad's long range capability.
The sharp shooter scope in my opinion is mounted way too high on the carrying handle thus an operator is at the wrong cheek placement! I wonder is SIngapore fielding sharpshooter scope on the SAR21 ! if so! what kind??
ANy Comments??
DaveC -
I am only guessing but most pictures of Ruskie troops I see, the SVD Dragunov is liberally issued. Which leads me to believe that their sniper rifle is also their designated marksman weapon, one per section.
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Yep there is a sharpshooter variant of the SAR... but for some reason we train with the old M-16/scope combo.
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I guess in the SAF concept of a 7-man section, we cannot afford to have a designated marksman who carries a weapon that's too different from the basic assault role.
In the old days, we have SAW gunner, sharpshooter, M203. The only guys carrying regular AR's are the LAW gunner and the Section IC. Depending on each section's makeup, it varies. Some have 2 SAWs, some 2 M203's, some 2 LAW and some have 2 sharpshooters.
With the SAR-21, I may be wrong but the need for a separate sharpshooter has somewhat been made redundant as everyweapon is now a sharpshooter weapon.
Unlike the Russians I posted above, the SAF requirement for a section sharpshooter is actually very low - just a 1.5x scope.
IMHO, our section sharpshooter is most importantly a rifleman first, due to the small size of our sections.
So if they are armed with such a specialized weapon like the one you posted, they may not do so well in the assault role. -
Maybe another reason why our requirement for section sharpshooter is so low is because the terrain where the infantry section operates - jungle, plantation or FIBUA, you can't really see that far to snipe long distance.
I emphasize "where the infantry section operates".
Because the sharpshooter moves with the section on assault. He doesn't detach himself to find a nice sniping position. Therefore, to equip him with a specialized sharpshooting weapon may be quite unnecessary. I feel the 1.5x scope with the 5.56 bullet is quite sufficient for infantry section fighting.
Having a 7.62 in the section would burden the ammo supply and he will have a weapon that's too big for FIBUA and FOFO or just bashing through vegetation.
There will be the real snipers deployed for these roles. -
my unit had issued the sharpshooter variant of SAR21 last year..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Yep there is a sharpshooter variant of the SAR... but for some reason we train with the old M-16/scope combo. -
Oh, what's the difference with the standard SAR-21?Originally posted by mr_sotong:my unit had issued the sharpshooter variant of SAR21 last year.. -
I had the opportunity to touch n feel the SAR21 sharpshooter variant, essentially its the same piece of kit as the SAR21 for general issue. Only thing is that instead of a 1.5x scope is now has a 3x scope. But i can't remember for sure if the scope is equipped with ranging grids or not. What i'm very certain is that the sharpshooter variant comes with a 3x scope.Originally posted by moca:Oh, what's the difference with the standard SAR-21? -
no.. dont think it come with ranging grids..Originally posted by SpecOps87:I had the opportunity to touch n feel the SAR21 sharpshooter variant, essentially its the same piece of kit as the SAR21 for general issue. Only thing is that instead of a 1.5x scope is now has a 3x scope. But i can't remember for sure if the scope is equipped with ranging grids or not. What i'm very certain is that the sharpshooter variant comes with a 3x scope. -
well! looks like we have a SAR21 with a 3x scope ! that is a good idea becasue there may be time when your 1.5x scope cannot engage a target as effective out to 400 meters or more.... with the advent of better bullet like say the M855/SS109 or the 77 grain 5.56 ammo! we could effectively engage up to 600 meter! thus a 3 or 4x scope would be useful. Hopfully the scope has a ammunition calibration rectical or a Ballistic cam to compensate for the bullet drop at diffrent ranges.
a DMR would greatly increase a squad's capability ... the weight is insignificant becasue try enageing a man size target out to 600 meter would be very hard without a good optics! and the extra weight would be well worth it ! you can;t hit what you cannot see!
I have shoot side by side a AUG with 1.5x and a M16 with Elcan and I could easily engage at 600 yards on a man size gong with the Elcan! with the Elcan we can easily ding the gong 8 out of 10! while the 1.5 AUG will be about 3 out of 10 becasue the AUG''s scope and also the AUG did not have the bullet drop compensation! at 600! it will be near impossibe to hold off ( kentucky windage) becasue the target is too small.
DaveC -
Well, the only time our platoon had cause to engage at a long distance, more than 200m, was when we were doing coastal defence excercise.
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I just feel that mission can change and we may be engaging a differnt warfare where longer range engagement is needed. Although statistically all engagement is done 100 meter or less, there are times when a terrorist or anything is further and the squad lose its effectiveness ! reason why US is supplementing their units with M14 and scoped M16... I guess same thing with the British which has the SUSAT scope . and if you look at the scope design! all have range compensation to the ammo use! thus the effectivelness of the rifle is increase! same with the SVD's PSO-1 scope! Dang! even the British SUIT scope in the 80s have a cam that has 300 and 500 meter setting!
Maybe it is time we train our troop level to engage differnt distance instead of learning to do the aim off thing!
The pooint being you can;t engage if you cannot see that well!reason you start seeing M4 with ACOG, FN-249 with ELcan and M240 with Elcan setup!
We had the vision to have the Sharpshooter concept for a long time! ! WOnder why they kind of let it slip and neglected it!...
Maybe the 3x 4x scope is too expensive ! like this M4 setup with the ELcan is deadly at 600 yds with SS109 ammo!
DAveC!
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nothing beats a good 7.62 DMR!
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The sharpshooter in my section uses a regular SAR21 with a 3X scope. It looks exactly the same as the normal SAR21.
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so it does not have any means of bullet compensation in different ranges?? ! man! we are like decades behind in a modern rifle design ! So SAD!
Just to enlighted everyone,,..... the ACOG TA-01 NSN and new M145 Elcan has a recicle but have graduation of 100 to 600 meter drop for the SS109 ammo! the Canadian Elcan has a inverted post recticle but it has a cam outside the scope which when you clikc 1 for 100, 2 for 200 etc !
This makes your shot much more accurate and precise!
FOr a DMR role ! you need the precision and not do the agar agar thing .. try agar at 600 yds!
DaveC! -
got bullet drop and target speed compensation every 100m in the 3X scope. in fact i quite like the sharpshooter's scope. it is luminous at nightOriginally posted by davechng:so it does not have any means of bullet compensation in different ranges?? ! man! we are like decades behind in a modern rifle design ! So SAD!
Just to enlighted everyone,,..... the ACOG TA-01 NSN and new M145 Elcan has a recicle but have graduation of 100 to 600 meter drop for the SS109 ammo! the Canadian Elcan has a inverted post recticle but it has a cam outside the scope which when you clikc 1 for 100, 2 for 200 etc !
This makes your shot much more accurate and precise!
FOr a DMR role ! you need the precision and not do the agar agar thing .. try agar at 600 yds!
DaveC! -
kool!
So it is calibrated for the ammo we use and a calibrated recticle! is the recticle illuminated at night??
DaveC -
Does the sharpshooter variant come with grids? Like the 4X avimo scope for the M-16S1? Has the iron sight of the SAR-21 been rectified? Is the scope aiming sight the circle with a dot type or is it like the 4x scope type with a sharp triangle tip typeOriginally posted by PointBlue:The sharpshooter in my section uses a regular SAR21 with a 3X scope. It looks exactly the same as the normal SAR21. -
i've only seen it briefly. i remember it as a cross type with a circle ring in the centre. the iron sight is still the same one on top of the scope/carrying handle. there are no grids though.Originally posted by equlus84:Does the sharpshooter variant come with grids? Like the 4X avimo scope for the M-16S1? Has the iron sight of the SAR-21 been rectified? Is the scope aiming sight the circle with a dot type or is it like the 4x scope type with a sharp triangle tip type -
yes the reticle is made of luminous black paint. it is fairly visible in low light.Originally posted by davechng:kool!
So it is calibrated for the ammo we use and a calibrated recticle! is the recticle illuminated at night??
DaveC -
i gotta so look u up in US... i'll be in Wichita, Kansas...
btw, wats the criteria for an "alien" to purchase firearms there? -
black paint??? man! it must be tritium ..... could not be black paint! that would be a really cheap way to do it..
I have read about Russian troops is Chechnya reinforce each squad with SVD and SVDS to counter the threat of the terrorist and rebels!
I guess they got the limitation with teh Ak74M and the AKS-74 which does not have the optics and range to engage..
DaveC! -
Yeah, all those pictures I tried to post didn't appear. They are all from Chechnya and I figured that there must be one SVD per section.Originally posted by davechng:I have read about Russian troops is Chechnya reinforce each squad with SVD and SVDS to counter the threat of the terrorist and rebels!
I guess they got the limitation with teh Ak74M and the AKS-74 which does not have the optics and range to engage..
DaveC!
But ....
Even in old pictures from the 70's where they were using the AK-47, you still see the guy with the SVD right alongside the rest of the guys and dressed just like a rifleman.
I am curious as to why they don't use the SKS for DMR? I mean it is more accurate compared to the AK47, and it uses the same ammo.
That's why in the other thread I asked if the AK47 round is inherently inaccurate?
Of course, this could simply be that their concept of a Designated Marksman is completely different from us. -
Non-resident aliens, such as foreign nationals temporarily in the US on work or study visas, are not allowed to purchase firearms.Originally posted by Moonstriker:btw, wats the criteria for an "alien" to purchase firearms there?