Small Arms questions for DaveC, MG & others
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(MG means Meia Gisborn)
They may be noob questions, so please bear with me. I had several questions but now I can only remember one.
First question:
When you fire a Battle Rifle at FA (such as DaveC and his FN FAL) they are supposed to be quite uncontrollable.
The Germans solved this by producing an "necked down" or "kurtz" round for the MP44 to achieve this controllability quality.
The AK-47 7.62x39mm is basically the same thing.
So...
Theoretically, can you just put less propellant into a normal 7.62x51mm case and get the same "necked down" effect for controllability.
Maybe you need to change the recoil spring or something, and the velocity and hitting power may be slightly reduced... But is it theoretically possible?
If I'm not wrong there are subsonic loadings for SMG/pistol rounds. -
The old post-WWII Japanese service rifle (can't remember the model) uses 7.62x51mm cartridge case with down-rated propellant. However, it can still fire the original ammo by adjusting the gas regulator.
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i think your primary concern is that the reduced gas might not cycle the weapon properly to the next round using a "kurtz" round right?Originally posted by moca:(MG means Meia Gisborn)
They may be noob questions, so please bear with me. I had several questions but now I can only remember one.
First question:
When you fire a Battle Rifle at FA (such as DaveC and his FN FAL) they are supposed to be quite uncontrollable.
The Germans solved this by producing an "necked down" or "kurtz" round for the MP44 to achieve this controllability quality.
The AK-47 7.62x39mm is basically the same thing.
So...
Theoretically, can you just put less propellant into a normal 7.62x51mm case and get the same "necked down" effect for controllability.
Maybe you need to change the recoil spring or something, and the velocity and hitting power may be slightly reduced... But is it theoretically possible?
If I'm not wrong there are subsonic loadings for SMG/pistol rounds.
modern weapons like the steyr AUG have a gas regulator switch to select how much gas goes into the piston to cycle the weapon so it isnt a problem IMHO.
just select for foul/grenade launch position and you should be good to go as more gas goes into the piston to cycle the round/chamber etc...
as for blowback weapons like SMG's you are better off using a silenced version (mp5SD etc) that specifically shoots subsonic ammo.
as for controllability, recoil is only one factor, the muzzle rise is also another factor you have to take into account too!
The AK 74's splendid muzzle brake makes it group better than a m16 on 3 round burst due to its purpose built design, to control muzzle climb . -
HI Moca
From Reloading point of view, you can technically use less powder or using differnt rate of burning powder or use differnt bullet weight to achive lower velocity!.... and with reduced velocity, you will need to retime your gun totally , like you said! springs, and all that.... Yes it is possible ..... but you will have to in some times totally redo the gun timming issue which at sometime is more difficult to achieve .
SOmtimes it is physically impossible becasue of the design of the gun! Battle rifle like the FAL,, G3, M14 all have pretty hefty bolt and carrier! so by reducing the load may not have sufficient power to make the cycle of the rifle consistant and reliable ! EVen with the reduced spring! you can only tune it down this much! also! in full auto fire, you need the necessary power to have consistant Extraction!
IN theory! I would say it can be done!
DaveC! -
SO in other words, you have to gut the rifle and rebuild the insides including the bolt carrier, right?
Which means you're better off building a new rifle.
It's a shame as everyone (esp US) wants the 7.62 back. And there are still so many 7.62 weapons in surplus stock.
Ever mindful of trends FN came up with the FN SCAR in 7.62, It has a rather short barrel which means that muzzle flash would be tremendous even in Semi.
So people who do their own handloads are doing it for pistols and bolt action rifles? Or do people even handload for AR?
And why do people handload? -
Another question:
Is the AK-47 7.62 x 39mm inherently inaccurate?
I read somewhere that this was so because the cartridge is a tapering case. This makes for easy chambering accounting for the AK's reputation for reliability. But this tapered cartridge reduces accuracy.
Is it correct to say that you CAN'T build an accurage weapon using the 7.62 x 39 round? -
Here's a question about M-16 STANAG mags.
We all know that the aluminium M16 mags in SAF are problematic.
What are the options out there? Are there more reliable versions of STANAG mags out there? What other materials are used instead of aluminium?
What do they cost compared to a standard M16 mag?
Are there any STANAG mags that allow you to see the number of rounds you have?
I know that Diemaco make their own mags for their own versions of the M16 which can be swapped with normal M16 mags.
The Brits and Israelis also make their own (STANAG?) mags for their own weapons like the L85 and the Galil. Are these interchangeable with M16? -
Hmm... Sounds workable on a weapon with a gas regulator to me...Originally posted by ktk:modern weapons like the steyr AUG have a gas regulator switch to select how much gas goes into the piston to cycle the weapon so it isnt a problem IMHO.
What do you guys think? -
for all i know, the PRC type 95 also have a gas selector similar to the AUG,Originally posted by moca:Hmm... Sounds workable on a weapon with a gas regulator to me...
What do you guys think?
ditto bout the SAR platform, dont have much experience.
basically any weapon with a short recoil can be built to have a gas regulator to feed it different types of ammo but in the long run, a spring for supressed ammo is still better as its pirpose built.
the AK round's inaccuracy at 300m might be because of its heavier bullet ,it has knockdown power but it takes longer to fly to its target ,hence the reduced effective range and the tendency to shoot in an arc.
5.56 does shoot further but lacks the knockdown power of the ak round. -
The L85A2 mags are built by H&K and are made of stainless steel instead of aluminium.Originally posted by moca:Here's a question about M-16 STANAG mags.
We all know that the aluminium M16 mags in SAF are problematic.
What are the options out there? Are there more reliable versions of STANAG mags out there? What other materials are used instead of aluminium?
What do they cost compared to a standard M16 mag?
Are there any STANAG mags that allow you to see the number of rounds you have?
I know that Diemaco make their own mags for their own versions of the M16 which can be swapped with normal M16 mags.
The Brits and Israelis also make their own (STANAG?) mags for their own weapons like the L85 and the Galil. Are these interchangeable with M16?
Canada's solution is a polymer mag called a thermold mag , but it does have problems at low temperatures. its polymer feed lips are prone to breakage too.
theres a new kid in town, its called a Magpul polymer mag which looks really tuff:
http://www.magpul.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=80_120
heres the vid:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UCFXcOOb4jc -
from my memory, all H&k rifles (cept the g36 family) uses its delayed roller blowback system.The bolt is HUGE and with a reduced recoil , it might not have enuff energy to cycle the weapon properly as davec said.Originally posted by davechng:HI Moca
From Reloading point of view, you can technically use less powder or using differnt rate of burning powder or use differnt bullet weight to achive lower velocity!.... and with reduced velocity, you will need to retime your gun totally , like you said! springs, and all that.... Yes it is possible ..... but you will have to in some times totally redo the gun timming issue which at sometime is more difficult to achieve .
SOmtimes it is physically impossible becasue of the design of the gun! Battle rifle like the FAL,, G3, M14 all have pretty hefty bolt and carrier! so by reducing the load may not have sufficient power to make the cycle of the rifle consistant and reliable ! EVen with the reduced spring! you can only tune it down this much! also! in full auto fire, you need the necessary power to have consistant Extraction!
IN theory! I would say it can be done!
DaveC!
Ditto if its true but nearly all 7.62 weapons have huge bolts to accomodate for the huge round so might as well design one to shoot specialized subsonic 7.62.
5.56 is different as its a smaller round and the forces acting on it wont push it beyong breakage nearly as fast as the 7.62 nato round. -
Moca, I've seen polymer/synthetic STANMAGs, not too sure bout their quality though. But a good feature is that they allow you to quickly assess how many rounds you have left in a gunfight rather then wait for that "Almighty Death-Click". Not too sure about the costs involved per unit though.Originally posted by moca:Here's a question about M-16 STANAG mags.
We all know that the aluminium M16 mags in SAF are problematic.
What are the options out there? Are there more reliable versions of STANAG mags out there? What other materials are used instead of aluminium?
What do they cost compared to a standard M16 mag?
Are there any STANAG mags that allow you to see the number of rounds you have?
I know that Diemaco make their own mags for their own versions of the M16 which can be swapped with normal M16 mags.
The Brits and Israelis also make their own (STANAG?) mags for their own weapons like the L85 and the Galil. Are these interchangeable with M16? -
Hmmm.... I wouldn't say the 7.62 x 39mm cartridge is inherently inaccurate. Perhaps its close association with the venerable AK-47, which sacrifices accuracy to gain reliability, is responsible for that perception.Originally posted by moca:Another question:
Is the AK-47 7.62 x 39mm inherently inaccurate?
I read somewhere that this was so because the cartridge is a tapering case. This makes for easy chambering accounting for the AK's reputation for reliability. But this tapered cartridge reduces accuracy.
Is it correct to say that you CAN'T build an accurage weapon using the 7.62 x 39 round?
(I have a friend who has an accurized and scoped Yugoslavian SKS rifle that's chambered in that caliber, and it regularly shoots sub-2" groups at 100 yards with regular commercial Wolf-brand ammo. I haven't asked him how it performs beyond 100 yards, though.) -
So people who do their own handloads are doing it for pistols and bolt action rifles? Or do people even handload for AR?
And why do people handload?[/b][/quote]
HI MOca
People handload becasue they want to control the accuracy of the round.. with hand loading which a lot of people do it for extreme accuracy, you can control a lot of variables that most ammunition company cannot do! on good example is that a cartridige is fired say in a bolt action sniper rifle, the brass after fired is fire form to the chamber of that rifle... that brass would be customized in that way to your rifle .... and you merely need to neck size the brass and you have a custom load made for your rifle that will be more accurate than any factory load.
The point of hand loading is mainly for accuracy and you can change differnt variables like using different burn rate, bullet type, primer seating and primer type , ability to control the overall length and how far to seat the bullet... all these consitute to what you want foryour shooiting that if you don;t reload you are at the mercy of the manufacturer ...
Yes ! people so hand load for AR becasue AR is one of the most acurate semi auto out there and you could really make advantage of handloading and push your rifle to the next level.
DaveC -
Well! good questions, like what MG said, a lot of people uses AK47 rifle that is stock and uses the worst ammo and said the round is not good! Well! 7.62x39mm can be made to be quite accurate ( I guess accurate is a relative word! 1/4 MOA or 3 MOA!??)) So! just for illustration sake! We use good quality 7.62x39mm by Lapua! and shoot it thru a SAKO Valmet! it did about 1.5" at 100 yds ! I think that is pretty good ..Originally posted by moca:Another question:
Is the AK-47 7.62 x 39mm inherently inaccurate?
I read somewhere that this was so because the cartridge is a tapering case. This makes for easy chambering accounting for the AK's reputation for reliability. But this tapered cartridge reduces accuracy.
Is it correct to say that you CAN'T build an accurage weapon using the 7.62 x 39 round?
DaveC! -
HI MOca!Originally posted by moca:Here's a question about M-16 STANAG mags.
We all know that the aluminium M16 mags in SAF are problematic.
What are the options out there? Are there more reliable versions of STANAG mags out there? What other materials are used instead of aluminium?
What do they cost compared to a standard M16 mag?
Are there any STANAG mags that allow you to see the number of rounds you have?
I know that Diemaco make their own mags for their own versions of the M16 which can be swapped with normal M16 mags.
The Brits and Israelis also make their own (STANAG?) mags for their own weapons like the L85 and the Galil. Are these interchangeable with M16?
AS for the British STANAG! they did make a steel body and also AL body mags for the L85A1! but they are poorly made and I can attest to that! it sucks! .... and than HK came in and re-vamp the L85 to the L85A2 and one of them is the intriduction of the HK mags! this one is very well made , steel also with steel non tilt follower and even the angle of the mags is change ! but expensive!
The Isreali went with a polymer based M16 mags! and they are call Orlite ! as for the Galil mags !no it will not fit the M16 ! but the Galil does have a M16 mag adapter to use the M16 magazine!
The M16 STanag mag has its problem ! There are a lot of improvement like Magpul new polymer base mags which is super strong and super reilable! ... akso we can improve upon our old mags by changing out the non tilt follower from Magpul!
DaveC -
DaveC hit the nail right on the head with his explanation of the benefits of handloading!
Aside from being able to completely customize a cartridge to an individual firearm to maximize its accuracy, there's also the immense satisfaction gained from the process of experimentation in the work-up to the "perfect" handload, and the pride of knowing that you're shooting products of your own handiwork rather than generic store-bought ammunition.
Then there's the cost aspect to handloading: it costs significantly less to handload than to buy commercial ammunition, especially in the larger calibers. -
MG is right! with the ammo prices going sky rocket here in the US recently, I actually save quite some money reloading my own M855/SS109 and M118LR!
Besides, the satisfaction of your own load outshooting those expensive Black Hills match or HOrnady TAP ammo makes your ego goes 10 fold!
DaveC -
So you buy the gunpowder, load it into the empty shell and put in the bullet?Originally posted by davechng:MG is right! with the ammo prices going sky rocket here in the US recently, I actually save quite some money reloading my own M855/SS109 and M118LR!
Besides, the satisfaction of your own load outshooting those expensive Black Hills match or HOrnady TAP ammo makes your ego goes 10 fold!
DaveC
Any machinery required? -
for reloading there are many ways to load .. progressive or manual reloading.
check out this site for what is needed ab\nd the basics!
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=5&s2=12
DaveC -
Gents,
As indicated above, folks reload for several main reasons:
1) To save money, especially if you shoot as much as some of us do, about 20K to 25K a year on average.
2) To get the perfect load needed for say, competition. Take the venerable 45ACP for example. Factory loads are high power factors. If you shoot (say) IDPA, the factory load is about 195 but IDPA only requires you to meet 165. That is a huge difference and when you download it to 165, the 1911 shoots very nice and soft.
3) 'Cos the damn ammo is not easily available. Getting harder these days to find large qty of 5.56mm ball. We normally buy several thousand rounds at a time and we cannot seem to find Federal Eagle's 5.56mm in stock these days. Everything points to the so-called 'war effort'.
Now, not all factory ammo is expensive and holds a high power factor. For most of our guys who compete in 9mm, if we're buying in bulk, it is almost always cheaper for us to purchase as a group. The cost is about the same as reloading. That said, we do not buy brand new ammo but reloaded ones from a reputable company that supplies to the US Army Marksmanship Team. -
P.S. On the subject of magazines, we recently started shipping the new polymer PMags from MagPul. The first generation ones had some feeding issues but these new Gen IIs are sweeeeet.
They are currently working on a clear one that allows you to see the rounds inside. A version of the colored ones with a window (mag level indicator) will be available in a couple of months.
http://www.magpul.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_120&products_id=267 -
So for manual you put in the gunpowder pellets, then pop the bullet in place?Originally posted by davechng:for reloading there are many ways to load .. progressive or manual reloading.
check out this site for what is needed ab\nd the basics!
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=5&s2=12
DaveC -
no it is not as simple !lots of consideration.Originally posted by wonderamazement:So for manual you put in the gunpowder pellets, then pop the bullet in place?
in a nutshell
clean brass,
lubricate brass ( if tapred round lilke most rifle cartridge)
deprime and resize brass
check brass for elongation and trim brass ( happen to hi pressure cartridge )
clean brass ( the lubrication)
priming operation
drop appropiate powder
seat bullet and crimp
DaveC -
Hi thanks!Originally posted by i-SHOT:P.S. On the subject of magazines, we recently started shipping the new polymer PMags from MagPul. The first generation ones had some feeding issues but these new Gen IIs are sweeeeet.
They are currently working on a clear one that allows you to see the rounds inside. A version of the colored ones with a window (mag level indicator) will be available in a couple of months.
http://www.magpul.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_120&products_id=267
I just bought 6 of the P mags and they ran great! ... the fit and finish and functionality is 1st class ! I can retire my HK Mags now !
they ran perfect on all my AR and SIG556!
I-shot if you represents Magpul! great product!!... loooking forward for the MAsada rifle!
DaveC