OFFICIAL: Gulfstream 550 - Airborne Early Warning system.
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Earlier link on discussion of RSAF Gulfstream:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=246553
Speech by Minister for Defence Teo Chee Hean at The Networked Air Defence Capability Demonstration at Tengah Airbase announcing the order for G550
Extract:
"...The demonstration we have seen today is a slice of this new system, which we will continue to develop and upgrade. Because we are a small country, our ability to see potential threats early is critical to our defence. One new sensor that the RSAF will operate is Gulfstream 550 - Airborne Early Warning system.
Based on a business jet, the Gulfstream 550 (G550-AEW) aircraft will replace the E-2Cs that have served the RSAF well for the last 20 years. Equipped with a better radar and modern information systems, the Gulfstream 550 will significantly enhance the RSAF's airborne early warning and surveillance capability. The integration of this new sensor into the Networked Air Defence system will further strengthen our air defences..."
Click link below for full speech:
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2007/apr/23apr07_nr/23apr07_speech.html
Factsheet: G550 - Airborne Early Warning:
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2007/apr/23apr07_nr/23apr07_fs3.html -
Finally a confirmation.
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Yup, so glad to read this news in today Straits Times pg 3.
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I'm no expert on air defence so bare with me while I ponder some things:
1. If I'm not wrong, none of our neighbours have AWACS. We're the first & I think the only. Now we've even replaced the E2C with a better AWACS. So how come despite their increased funding & shopping of subs, attack choppers, jets, MBTs, et al, they've not even bought a single AWACS? They feel its not vital? Or maybe they already have them but are pretending not to?
2. Ever since we phased out the Bloodhounds, we've not had any long range missiles. And there doesn't appear to be any plans to get those. How come? Does RSAF figure medium range missiles like the I-Hawk (which are getting old too I may add) are enough? I doubt its for fear of making our neighbours pee in their pants 'cos we did have long range SAMs before anyway. -
Good questions sgf, but I doubt none of us here can really answer them.
1. Its really up to the countries you decide to answer these questions. They decide their policies and postures, not us. In anycase, AWACS platforms have proven themselves to be vital in controlling airspace and maintaining air superiority. They are indeed huge force multipliers.
2. We don't really know what RSAF possesses. Perhaps they did acquire S-300s from the Ruskies, or even the Spyder/Derby from the Mexicans. No one knows, and no one is willing to confirm. Still, even with what is known, the RSAF still possesses one of the best and lethal IADS in this part of the world. -
The cost of a single early warning plane alone could blow a big hole in horse country or indonesia defence budget coffer. Anyway, if any of them manage to get hold of it, with their SU-30 MKM, our edge will be narrow somehow more or less.
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We will caused them fear if we brought in even advance weapon..
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Why not one answered my earlier questions regarding radar?
1) have more than one type of radar on the same plane
2) Can the radar come in different(or switch) bands
And why get derby from mexico if we can get direct from israel (if they allow)
Not to mention the Range coverage is the same as the i-hawk/rapiers.
I-Hawk is a rather modern SAM.
Regarding bloodhounds replacement, i think the new long range SAM class (70km) is the Patriot/Meads type.
However we can consider this:
HAWK-AMRAAM AIR DEFENCE SYSTEM
Raytheon and Kongsberg Defence have jointly developed the HAWK-AMRAAM air defence system, which combines the capabilities of HAWK and AMRAAM missiles within a distributed architecture. The missiles are mounted on universal launchers, and a fire distribution centre controls target detection, identification, threat ordering, engagement, and kill assessment, as well as short-range air defence cueing.
The system can include the Sentinel radar and the HAWK AN/MPQ-61 high power illuminator for target tracking and illumination, although it is possible to hook up any number of radars and missile systems to the fire distribution centre. -
There have been some speculation here that we may have played a part in the development of this system with the mexicans too.
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It's easier to be the investor and not the researcher.Originally posted by Pitot:There have been some speculation here that we may have played a part in the development of this system with the mexicans too.
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no wonder they need a pay rise? to cover up for this?Originally posted by LazerLordz:It's easier to be the investor and not the researcher. -
if you notice, the press report on the straits times mentioned nothing about the hardware of this aircraft being made in Israel. All they said was the Gulfstream G550 is made in america and the software for the radar is developed by DSTA. Seems like they are so hush-hush abt sg buying israeli weapons even though its such an open secret.
btw any pictures of this pretty aircraft in RSAF colours? -
Yar riiight like Phalcon =/= Israel.Originally posted by ah_kwang:if you notice, the press report on the straits times mentioned nothing about the hardware of this aircraft being made in Israel. All they said was the Gulfstream G550 is made in america and the software for the radar is developed by DSTA. Seems like they are so hush-hush abt sg buying israeli weapons even though its such an open secret.
btw any pictures of this pretty aircraft in RSAF colours?
And what pretty colours? DULL GRAY again. -
1. NoOriginally posted by CM06:Why not one answered my earlier questions regarding radar?
1) have more than one type of radar on the same plane
2) Can the radar come in different(or switch) bands
And why get derby from mexico if we can get direct from israel (if they allow)
Not to mention the Range coverage is the same as the i-hawk/rapiers.
I-Hawk is a rather modern SAM.
Regarding bloodhounds replacement, i think the new long range SAM class (70km) is the Patriot/Meads type.
However we can consider this:
HAWK-AMRAAM AIR DEFENCE SYSTEM
Raytheon and Kongsberg Defence have jointly developed the HAWK-AMRAAM air defence system, which combines the capabilities of HAWK and AMRAAM missiles within a distributed architecture. The missiles are mounted on universal launchers, and a fire distribution centre controls target detection, identification, threat ordering, engagement, and kill assessment, as well as short-range air defence cueing.
The system can include the Sentinel radar and the HAWK AN/MPQ-61 high power illuminator for target tracking and illumination, although it is possible to hook up any number of radars and missile systems to the fire distribution centre.
2. No
The frequency of the radar is fixed as the antenna length is fixed. Similarly the frequency of the radar also gives you the minimum size of the target it can track.
I Hawk is way too old. Its electronics edge would have been compromised by now.
Hawk-Amraam? Anything that as Amraam as a component requires too much clearance for export. Some parts like range is still highly classified.
Some points that may be of interest.
1. IIRC The range of the rockets on a Hind gunship is about 15km. The only SAM that we have is the HAWK. The next nearest is RBS70 at about 4km. Not too sure about the Iglas. There is a big gap in between.
2. Phalcon radar on the Gulfstream, one version was sold to China but cancelled.
3. I thought AEW platforms are suppose to be slow as it affects the resolution of slow moving targets? Or may be electronics and computers have caught up. -
In between we have the Rapier. Range up to 15km. It's not updated (it's already the newest @ Mk2)
Thanks for the radar answer.
I suppose the phased array radar can be done digitally so speed doesnt matter.
The SAM part regarding this i shift to the more proper topic. read the other one please:
Edit:New thing
Mach is 333m/s right?
so 3 seconds = 1km
1 minute =20km
Detection range of 200 NM = 370 KM (current)
Say usage range is 320 KM(low est)
An enemy jet closing in @ mach 2 40km/minute will need 8 mins.
We will have plenty of warning time. -
Phased array radar scan rates have much faster scan rates. In anycase, i think this slightly improved speed shouldn't affect the resolution much since the US have already been using the E-3s (Moves pretty fast if required to) for quite some time.
8 Mins? Not exactly. It could be less than 4 mins if we are talking about them launching long range cruise missiles or similar type of weaponry. Of course, thats assuming they get to ingress unopposed, which isn't likely. Every SAM we throw at them is gonna buy us time, if not kill them.
Collaborations with the Mexicans is an open secret already. But whether we did work with them on the Syder/derby is a different story. However, the Mexicans DID sell a few of those to an unnamed asian country.
So many Asian countries, who really knows? But one thing's for sure, India doesn't bother to be unnamed when it comes to buying arms. So its just a matter of whose left? -
E3 is seen with a rotate radome at least suggesting the radar is not fully phased arrayed. E3 is still using mechanically driven radar.
In Asia, couple of Countries already operates AEWs/AWACS, Japan is world No 2 in the capacity of AWACS/AEWS.
China deployed indigenous KJ-2000 AWACS with fixed AESA radome & Y-8 balance beam AESA AEWs. India is yet to receive its Phalcon platform. -
2.SG bought 4 E2c in circa 1986 by the amount equal toOriginally posted by sgf:I'm no expert on air defence so bare with me while I ponder some things:
1. If I'm not wrong, none of our neighbours have AWACS. We're the first & I think the only. Now we've even replaced the E2C with a better AWACS. So how come despite their increased funding & shopping of subs, attack choppers, jets, MBTs, et al, they've not even bought a single AWACS? They feel its not vital? Or maybe they already have them but are pretending not to?
then one year defense budget!!Plus the operational
and mainteanance cost in the life span.
Owning your eyes and ears in the sky 24x7
will burn any country pockets. -
Originally posted by CM06:
1) The G550 AEW has two different radars - an L-band radar attached to both sides of its fuselage and an S-band one facing fore and aft. The S-band radar has a shorter detection range than the L-band one.
Why not one answered my earlier questions regarding radar?
1) have more than one type of radar on the same plane
2) Can the radar come in different(or switch) bands
2) The US Navy's DD(X) has a Dual Band Radar (DBR) which combines the functionality of the X-Band AN/SPY-3 Multi-Function Radar with that of an S-Band Volume Search Radar (VSR).
http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/ids/documents/content/cms04_014621.pdf
Cheers,
Sunho -
For those who are interesting to have some more background information on world AWACS/AEWs landscape, I quote here some reference materials from JaneÂ’s:
As this edition of Jane's Radar and Electronic Warfare Systems went to press, the global Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW & C) market was effectively dominated by four architectures: Ericsson Microwave's Erieye surveillance radar mounted on either an Embraer ERJ-145 or Saab 340/2000 airframe, Lockheed Martin's AN/APS-145 radar installed (predominantly) aboard Northrop Grumman's Hawkeye platform, Northrop Grumman's Multirole Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) sensor mounted on a Boeing 737 airframe and Elta System's Phalcon AEW & C suite installed aboard either a Beriev A-50/Ilyushin Il-76 or Gulfstream G500 series airframe. Of these, Erieye-based systems are in service with the air forces of Brazil, Greece, Mexico and Sweden and are being bid to South Korea and Pakistan (Saab 2000 aircraft), while Northrop Grumman continues to produce E-2C Hawkeye 2000 aircraft for the US Navy and is gearing up to produce the next generation E-2D platform which features a new ESA/mechanical scanning radar that is being developed by Lockheed Martin. For its part, the Boeing 737/MESA combination has been ordered by Australia and Turkey and is a strong contender to meet South Korea's long standing E-X AEW & C requirement. Variants of Elta's Phalcon suite are mandated for an Indian Il-76 application and Israel's Gulfstream G500 series compact AEW platform, with the latter application forming the basis of a South Korean E-X bid. While these four architectures are currently pre-eminent, readers should also note that India has restarted its indigenous AEW & C programme and is developing an indigenous ESA radar which, in the first instance, will be applied to an ERJ-145 platform.
Elsewhere, China has embarked on a two-pronged national AEW & C effort that centres around AEW & C variants of the Y-8 and Il-76 transport aircraft. Here, the Y-8 application makes use of what is believed to be an AESA radar that features a 'plank' antenna not dissimilar to that used with the Erieye sensor, while the Il-76 platform is equipped with a fixed, dorsal 'rotodome' that is suggestive of an ESA/AESA radar that makes use of three fixed transceiver arrays arranged in a triangular configuration to provide 360º coverage in azimuth. Looking to the future, it is Jane's Radar and Electronic Warfare Systems' opinion that the AEW & C market remains buoyant, with (alongside the already noted examples) procurements possible in Chile, Italy, Kuwait, Malaysia, Singapore (possible Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) solution - JREW believes such a capability will be demonstrated within the next decade), Spain, Thailand and the United Arab Emirates. Readers should also remember the potential of helicopters in the AEW & C role, a viewpoint exemplified by India's procurement of the Ka-31/E-801 radar combination and the UK's use of the Sea King/Searchwater 2000AEW system. -
Thanks for the Info.
Now i know our gulf can search further and yet still can guide missiles (with S band). I didnt know about the latter.
Ohhh and i know who's the mexicans now. Stupid me. Heh. -
No the G550 got s-band radar on its front and rear is just a cheap compensation of the L-band side AESA radar which canÂ’t provide azimuth coverage in front & rear.
The Erieye “balance beam” shaped radar only covers 240 deg.
In order to give true 360 coverage, you need to use” three fixed transceiver arrays arranged in a triangular configuration” like Chinese AWACS system.
If L-band canÂ’t do the guidance, so does S-band which got lower frequency. -
Hmmm I never know much about bands. I just suppose the smaller the alphabet "a" the longer the wave since fire control radar is in X band
it thought S is nearer and thus is shorter than L
Wasnt our E2s S band? Cant they guide missiles?
Nevermind i read up a bit of it Longest to shortest
L - S - C - X
1-2ghz 2-4 4-8 8-12ghz
Can S band guide missile? -
The E-2's radar operates in UHF band, which is lower than L-band.Originally posted by CM06:Hmmm I never know much about bands. I just suppose the smaller the alphabet "a" the longer the wave since fire control radar is in X band
it thought S is nearer and thus is shorter than L
Wasnt our E2s S band? Cant they guide missiles?
Nevermind i read up a bit of it Longest to shortest
L - S - C - X
1-2ghz 2-4 4-8 8-12ghz
Can S band guide missile?
Almost all fighter radars and fire control radars for semi-active radar homing missiles operate in X or higher frequency bands.
Cheers,
Sunho -
PHALCON stands for “PHased-Array L-band CONformal radar”, it should apply 4 L-band AESA arrays at plane’s both sides of the fuselage as well as nose & rear to porvide ful 360 deg coverage. However, the G550 AEWs being acquired by RSAF only found side L-band AESA radar and the front & rear L-band radar arrays were replaced by a more economic S-band radar, is the S-band radar still AESA? I doubt, if it’s AESA, S-band radar usually has a longer search range than L-band one provided the power output is on par. If the S-band radar got a short range than the L-band one, it could emit much less power than the L-band one, a non AESA radar usually emits much less power than AESA radar.Originally posted by datafuser:1) The G550 AEW has two different radars - an L-band radar attached to both sides of its fuselage and an S-band one facing fore and aft. The S-band radar has a shorter detection range than the L-band one.
....
Cheers,
Sunho
So the G550 doesnÂ’t exactly use a Phalcon but an cost effective version of it.