Israel in talks with US for F22
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http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/04/20/213348/israel-in-talks-with-usa-over-f-22-orders.html
Washington has so far not authorised the export of the Raptor stealth fighter, but sources in Israel say this is the first time a “reasonable” request has been made.
wonder if it will go through? -
I wonder.. where the Israelis will even cough up the cash to buy such expensive planes. I don't the US military aid given is quite enough to buy more than say a squadron or two.
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it will go thru, political election is coming up, both party needs the jewish vote.
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Now if it goes thru for them wad about us?
Can the israelis deal with the othe airforces in the region right now? If so, will they need the F 22? Perhaps in the future?
Well, maybe we will be considered, after Japan and Australia? -
if the Israelis get it, the Chinese will get it too ....
bitten multiple times, the Americans will be shy now .... -
F-22s to Japan
By Bill Gertz
April 20, 2007
Japan wants to purchase up to 100 of the Air Force's ultramodern F-22 warplanes, and the subject is expected to be on the agenda of the meeting next week between President Bush and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.
Pro-China officials in the Bush administration are working against the sale of the advanced warplane, which has stealth characteristics and is expected to bring harsh criticism from China, which views Japan's more internationalist military posture as a threat.
The F-22 sale to Japan is favored by conservatives who say Japan, the closest U.S. ally in Asia, needs the warplanes to counter threats from both North Korea, where missiles could be pre-emptively attacked before launch, and China, which is building up forces opposite Taiwan, where China has deployed about 900 missiles within range of the island.
"One hundred F-22s in hands of Japan could change the Taiwan balance of power for two decades," said one official in favor of the estimated $30 billion sale. "The F-22 based in Okinawa could not only fight off [China's People's Liberation Army] air force but strike inside China; it is invisible to radar."
An Air Force spokesman said sales of the jet to Japan would require changing a 1998 law that prohibits the Pentagon from selling any F-22s to a foreign government.
China scored a political victory last year when the Bush administration headed off a planned request by Taiwan to buy upgraded F-16 jets. As a result of production schedules, any future sales of F-16s will be delayed until 2011.
Related link: http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20070419-114228-8449r_page2.htm
Israel is not the ony US ally eyeing the Raptors. There may even be a remote chance that RSAF will get them in the distant future as F-22 is being release to US allies to bring down the cost. Another reason is due to the uncertainty of the JSF, with its repeated deplays. -
This I concur. Early of the year, a US Defence paper - US Defence News, ran an article on the F-22, in it it discussed on the potential sale of the F-22 to selected US close Asian allies. Besides Japan, S Korea and Singapore were identified as the other Asian allies whom the F-22 could be released to. But it it also said, no sale will be expected from this 2 Asian nations in the immediate future as both nations are currently in the midst of inducting advanced version of the F-15 into their AF.Originally posted by tankee1981:... There may even be a remote chance that RSAF will get them in the distant future as F-22 is being release to US allies to bring down the cost...
But nevertheless, IMO, unless (i) the quality of the pilots of the neighbouring countries improved dramatically, (ii) coupled with the induction of huge inventory of advanced BVR weapons in their arsenal & (iii) their Air Defence systems became too sophisticated and inpenetratable even to our a/c assigned to Defence Suppression missions, I DON'T FORSEE the RSAF of jumping to join the queue for the F-22 purchase EVEN after the US Congress gave the green light for the sale of the Raptors to SIN.
Mind you, the price tag of a Raptor runs into $$$-millions and not like the cost of an Eagle or Viper where each is just $$-millions. Don't forget, advanced versions of the Typhoon and Rafale will be available in say 10 years time and performance-wise, they may not be in the same league of the Raptor, but they will be able to hold their own even against advanced versions of the current Flankers-series (eg the SU-35s) if the latter were to be ever introduced into this region.
P/s I don't believe the price of a Raptor will even go down to the level of US$90 million even if the Raptor were to be available to selected allies....but then, I could be wrong. -
BA, that was definitely interesting.
I wonder what a stripped down version of the F-22 would cost, likened to the ADF version of the F-16 J79 that was released for export to non-NATO allies and friendly states in the early 1980s. It'd be interesting to compare this to any future incarnation of the Typhoon or the Rafale. -
if you sell it to the japanese, you can be sure as hell that they won't be selling the tech to the chinese .....
if you sell it to the israelis however .............
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The trouble with the F-22 is the stealth and the thrust vectoring engines that probably form the bulk of the costs. The radar and electronics could easily be found on other fighters (I believe the radar they are using is fitted to some variants of the F-15.)Originally posted by LazerLordz:BA, that was definitely interesting.
I wonder what a stripped down version of the F-22 would cost, likened to the ADF version of the F-16 J79 that was released for export to non-NATO allies and friendly states in the early 1980s. It'd be interesting to compare this to any future incarnation of the Typhoon or the Rafale.
So if stripped down i guess the stealth features will take a knock. -
F-22 is a total low observation(LO) machine, or Stealth in a more common way. ItÂ’s not only has LO in aerodynamic design but also in SIGINT. The APG-77 AESA radar found in Raptor has the unique LPI stealthy feature that you canÂ’t find in old 4th G fighter like F-15 etc. To be electronic LO is just as important as to be LO in enemyÂ’s radar screen.
Accidentally, both Japan & Israel are currently no access to YanksÂ’ export oriented F-35 fighter. Israel canÂ’t get access to it because itÂ’s suspended by US in the JSF project for the accused export of sensitive technologies to China.
Unlike Israel, Japs don’t have an influential ethnic community in US like Jewish. And Yanks are always suspicious towards Japs even it acts as the door watch role in Asia for US. If you judge from the previous experience how Yanks transferred the F-15J to Japan and “helped” Japs F-2 development then you will see Yanks won’t simply give their top line fighter as Japs wished, at least in foreseeable future.
Even USÂ’s closet ally the UK canÂ’t get access to lower tier F-35 technology. How come Japs can get USÂ’s crown jewel the F-22 just wished?
I believe Israelis may get the F-22 sooner than Japs but again I doubt they can afford it -
politics ma
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They just want the best equipment from uncle sam.....to protect them frm the arabs
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only oil rich countries like saudi can afford to burn money to buy such ridiculously expensive toy. is it US$2bn each? might as well buy eurofighter
china also can buy 50 of these with 10% of their foreign reserve instead of getting US junk bond
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they do not cost 2 billion each. think 200mil or somewhere around there.
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$2BN is for the B-2A Spirit.Originally posted by audiovideo:only oil rich countries like saudi can afford to burn money to buy such ridiculously expensive toy. is it US$2bn each? might as well buy eurofighter
china also can buy 50 of these with 10% of their foreign reserve instead of getting US junk bond -
Just like what I have said, but never expected the rebuff comes so swift
Even a big NO on an F-22 export version
US Arms-Sale Chief Discounts F-22 Sale To Japan
The top U.S. government arms-sale official all but dismissed prospects for supplying the United States' premier fighter jet to Japan.
Reuters
The top U.S. government arms-sale official on Friday all but dismissed prospects for supplying the United States' premier fighter jet to Japan or Israel, even if a sale is cleared by Congress.
Designing an export version of Lockheed Martin Corp.'s radar-evading F-22 Raptor could cost more than $1 billion and be "prohibitively expensive" for any would-be foreign buyer, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency.
"If (export) were to be considered, which it's not, it essentially would have to be redesigned, rebuilt, retested and then go into production," Kohler, who oversees government-to-government arms sales, told Reuters in a brief interview.
The issue matters to Lockheed and its F-22 partners -- Boeing Co. and United Technologies Corp.'s Pratt & Whitney unit -- because overseas sales could extend the production line beyond 2011, when the last of the 183 Raptors currently planned is due to be sent to the U.S. Air Force.
Any redesign, Kohler said, would require degrading the aircraft's capabilities and making them tamper-proof to keep the technology exclusive -- a process he said would take years.
"This airplane was built to give us an edge way into the future, and that's why it's not exportable."
Japanese military officials are eyeing the F-22, the U.S. Air Force's primary air superiority fighter, as part of their response to growing regional missile threats, among other things.
The first F-22 overseas deployment was to Kadena Air Base on Okinawa, Japan, this year. Twelve are still in the region. The aircraft goes for $136 million per copy, not including development costs.
"BECOMING COMPELLING"
"I'm aware the Japanese are interested in the F-22," Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in an April 17 interview with Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine. "I'm also aware of our concerns about what we export and don't export in our high-end technology.
"We're committed to the defense of Japan, so we'll work our way through it," Pace said, according to an official transcript. "I think we all need to be concerned about both ballistic and cruise missile defense."
Loren Thompson, an analyst close to the Pentagon and to military contractors, discounted Kohler's comments as having been overtaken by senior Air Force officials' latest thinking.
"Strategic reasons for sharing the plane are becoming compelling," including cruise missile defense, said Thompson, of the Arlington, Virginia-based Lexington Institute, a research firm.
Another motivating factor, he said, is a belief that Japan may be willing to fund development of a new version that would be more of a bomber.
Israel is also widely reported to have shown interest in acquiring the F-22, which entered the U.S. combat fleet in December 2005, 20 years after it was conceived to battle Soviet MiG fighters over Europe.
As a prelude to exports, the U.S. Congress would have to lift a decade-old ban on overseas sales of the F-22, which features fuel-efficient supersonic speed and integrated electronic brains that could help defeat cruise missiles.
The ban was enacted to make sure the United States kept its technological edge. But the reported interest of Japan and Israel has fueled talk of reversing the law.
Dennis Wilder, senior director for East Asian Affairs on the White House National Security Council staff, told reporters this week that the Bush administration is "very positively disposed to talking to the Japanese about future-generation fighter aircraft.
"Whether it's going to be one model or another of aircraft is an open question at this point," he said on Wednesday, ahead of talks between President Bush and Prime Minister Shinzo Abe of Japan which may have included the issue.
Kohler told Reuters the U.S. intent was to supply Lockheed Martin's next-generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, due to be available for export in about 2015.
Joseph Quimby, a spokesman for Lockheed's F-22 program, said, "Any discussions pertaining to foreign sales of the F-22 are the province of the U.S. government." (Reuters) -
They will most probably not sell F22 to the Israeli. Their current AirForce is more than capable to take on the entire Arab Airforce. They don't even need it other than to sell to China for a quick profit. Remember Phalcon?
Unless Iran start pumping out the Su-s then maybe got alittle chance.
Anyway, under law, the eurofighter can't be exported to China. I don't really think they want either given China reverse-engineering skills. -
Israelis are not alone, same can happen in JMSDF or should I say Japanese Navy now?
Japanese help will only make China's own "Aegis" better:
AEGIS weapon system data possibly leaked(Japanese navy) to China
YOKOHAMA (Kyodo) Kanagawa Prefectural Police and the Maritime Self-Defense Force have teamed up to find out how a noncommissioned officer got his hands on top-secret data on the Aegis defense system and why he obtained them, suspecting someone higher up in the MSDF provided the information.
Police confiscated digital storage devices containing the data during a search in January of the home of the 33-year-old petty officer 2nd class in connection with his Chinese wife, who is suspected of violating immigration law. The couple were not identified, and the law the wife was suspected of violating was not specified.
Information on her current status was not provided.
The hard drives and other storage media contained Aegis destroyer radar data and telecommunications frequencies, sources said.
The U.S. Navy has lodged a strong protest with the MSDF, because the Aegis system is U.S.-developed and its secrets are supposed to be secure, a separate Japanese source said.
Police suspect the noncom violated the confidentiality protection law under the Japan-U.S. defense cooperation agreement by having the data on the advanced missile defense system, the sources said.
Police said the petty officer has cooperated with their investigation and has denied providing the information on core parts of the Aegis defense system to a third party, the sources said.
The petty officer is assigned to the destroyer Shirane, which is part of the 1st Escort Flotilla based in Yokosuka, Kanagawa Prefecture.
He is not authorized to access the data in question. As a result, police suspect someone else in the MSDF gave him the data, the sources said.
According to an article in the daily Sankei Shimbun, the sailor told police he had copied the data from the personal computers of former colleagues who had also been aboard the Shirane.Police and MSDF investigators are questioning the colleagues the sailor mentioned, but their ranks are not high enough to give them access to the data, the paper said. The paper also said the Chinese wife had been arrested three years ago for theft and deported in February 2004. But she sneaked back into Japan and got a job at an eatery in Yokohama's Chinatown, where she met the noncom. They married last October. Investigators are trying to learn more about her.
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I find it highly unlikely that only American defense R&D establishments could come up with these integrated systems.
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http://www.f-16.net/news_article2299.html
U.S. to lift ban on F-22 exports to Japan, Korea and Israel?
April 27, 2007 (by Lieven Dewitte) - The U.S. government recently hinted that it may sell F-22 Raptor fighter jets to Japan. It would be the first overseas sale of the fifthation stealth fighter aircraft.
"We're happy to discuss supplying next-generation fighters to Japan," said Dennis Wilder, the senior director for East Asian Affairs at the National Security Council, ahead of Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo AbeÂ’s first visit to Washington scheduled on April 26.
"China is spurring modernization of its air force and North Korea's missile and nuclear capabilities comes as a threat to Japan. All of these explain why the Japan's Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) requested the future-generation fighters," Dennis added.
The Raptor is a likely candidate for the JASDF's Replacement-Fighter program in summer 2008.
In mock battles with F-15, F-16 and F-18 fighter jets, the F-22 achieved a 144:0 kill-to-loss ratio. The South Korean Air Force, composed mainly of F-15 and F-16 fighters, would probably be powerless in front of the Japanese Air Self Defense Force equipped with F-22s.
Note that much of the credit goes to the F-22's stealth feature, which makes the fighter jet undetectable by radar. The F-15, 16 and 18 were simply unaware of the approaching F-22 until they came in range of its mid-range air-to-air missiles dozens of kilometers away.
The export of the F-22A however is banned under federal law until 2015 and needs approval from the U.S. Congress and the Pentagon. Its high cost (US$200-US$300 million per Raptor) also may be an issue. Japan was also considering buying F-15FXs first and F-22s later. The F-15FX is the advanced version of F-15J and F-15DJ, the mainstay of the JSADF, and its price is less than the half of a Raptor.
The Japanese government has allocated 1 trillion Yen (~ 8.4 billion USD) for its Replacement-Fighter Program which seems to be largely insufficient to acquire the F-22.
China surprised the world by shooting down a satellite with its own missile and increasing its fleet of nuclear submarines. A decade later, China is about to launch its own fleet of aircraft carriers.
Japan doesn't want to sit by idly as China arms itself and the U.S. is seeking to counter China by aggressively supporting Japan's missile defense systems and by boosting the country's air force and naval capabilities. And Washington could be considering selling F-22s to Japan in an effort to manage the security order of East Asia based on the U.S.-Japan alliance.
The United States Air Force deployed 12 F-22 fighters at Kadena Air Base in southern Japan's Okinawa prefecture in late February. The deployment ends in May. JapanÂ’s Ministry of Defense proposed a joint drill between United States Air Force pilots and JSADF pilots, and the joint military training is to be held around Okinawa on April 27.
Neighboring Northeast Asian nations are sensitive to Japan's possible purchase of F-22 fighters. When the Washington Times reported, "Japan wants to buy as many as 100 F-22 fighters" on April 20, Chinese media expressed concern, saying that it will break the 20-year military balance of the Taiwan Strait.
China has already started developing its next-generation fighter J-13 and 14 in a bid to challenge the F-22. Although China is planning to field the new jets by 2015, it will accelerate its deployment once Japan purchases F-22s. Taiwan and other countries will also beef up their military strength, sparking an arms race in Northeast Asia.
In a separate move, Japan is apparently developing its own stealth fighter jet modeled on the F-22.
Raptors for South Korea?
South Korea is in a double bind: a nuclear and biological missile threat from North Korea and being trapped between a fierce armament race between China and Japan. They cannot just sit back and watch what the U.S., Japan and China are doing.
Seoul unveiled its ambition today to also procure fifth-generation fighter jets such as F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, to keep up with the air superiority of neighboring powers. This clearly shows they are reexamining its air force reinforcement plans, which were centered around F-15K fighter jets.
But there is also no way of knowing whether the United States would sell the F-22 to South Korea. And even if it does, South Korea will find it hard to purchase the F-22, which costs up to double the price of an F-15K. With GDP growth only in the four percent range, South Korea is facing a tough time looking for ways to protect itself in Northeast Asia, where it is stuck between North Korea, which is unwilling to give up its nuclear program, and China and Japan, which are about to embark on an armament race.
Raptors for Israel?
The United States would also be inclined to allow the sale of the F-22 Raptor to the Israeli Air Force if the State of Israel's security was in jeopardy, former US Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen told The Jerusalem Post Thursday night.
While Congress and the Pentagon would be hesitant to release classified technology like the F-22 to Israel, "if it came to a question of Israeli security, I am confident they will come to help." -
AEGIS weapon system data possibly leaked(Japanese navy) to China
actually hes exchanging porn with his officers and accidentally given a cd with classified mathematic formula for the aegis computer. -
Seems you may need some updates since PLAN long ago has already deployed Aegis alike DDG. Not necessarily only US can develop such a system but not Chinese. But obviously, Chinese desperately need some crucial data from Yanks’ proven Aegis system to debug their own system and make it more reliable. That’s the reason I said “ to make the Chinese Aegis system” better.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I find it highly unlikely that only American defense R&D establishments could come up with these integrated systems.
From AFCEAÂ’s SIGNAL magazine, a report dated back in 2005. And you can see from the report, actually it's quite difficult to put 4 radar arrays onto a compacted DDG superstructure. Even USSR failed this try and didn't come out a similar Aegis arrangement.China Debuts Aegis Destroyers
By James C. Bussert
July 2005
http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles/templates/SIGNAL_Article_Template.asp?articleid=992&zoneid=7
A coastal force extends its reach and capabilities.
The PeopleÂ’s Liberation Army Navy recently introduced two domestically designed and built guided missile destroyers that include Aegis-type radars and related technologies. Known as Project 052C guided missile destroyers (DDGs), the ships feature Aegis-type phased array panels, vertical launch systems, long-range missiles and considerable command and control. These capabilities were not found on any previous Chinese-built DDGs.
The design of a lead ship with prototype Aegis radar, combat direction links and a vertical launch system (VLS) into a small 6,600-ton hull is an ambitious development. The smallest U.S. Navy Aegis ship with VLS is the 8,400-ton Arleigh Burke-class DDG 51. Russia had its Aegis-equivalent Sky Watch system only on 30,000-ton aircraft carriers. The nine years of sea test development prior to the U.S. NavyÂ’s first installing Aegis on the warship USS Ticonderoga CG 47 indicates the complexity and the engineering effort necessary to build a successful Aegis system. The fact that the Soviet Union gave up on an Aegis system after years of frustrating problems on two warships also shows the extreme difficulties.
China is building only two 052C ships, and the next ship under construction will have a different Aegis and VLS suite. Even so, the mere existence of PeopleÂ’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) warships with long-range phased array radar, communications to other naval assets and over-the-horizon ship-to-ship missiles (SSMs) complicates planning by other naval powers for the Taiwan Straits or other disputed Pacific Ocean waters.
The first sea platform for the U.S. Navy Aegis was the trial ship USS Norton Sound AVM-1 in 1974. The first warship full-up four-panel Aegis system was on the Ticonderoga in 1983, which had 50 meters between the fore and aft deckhouse arrays. The first Aegis destroyer with the single deckhouse array SPY-1D was the 8,400-ton Arleigh Burke lead ship in 1989. More than 50 DDG 51-class ships have been built in this highly successful and constantly upgraded class of warships. All cruiser and destroyer SPY-1 variant antennas are 3.7 meters in diameter and measure 13.5 meters vertically, and they have an F-band frequency of from 3100 to 3500 megahertz.
In 1988, the Soviet Union installed its first Aegis-type Sky Watch on two full-deck aircraft carriers. Each of the four square-plate phased array antennas measured about 5 meters in diameter, and their frequency was estimated to be F-band at about 850 megahertz. This is similar to the Top Plate radar that was mounted on previous Soviet carriers for long-range detection. The port array was 60 meters forward from the starboard array.
The Soviets seem to have had considerable trouble in exercises with their Gorshkov phased array radar, as mechanical scanning Top Sail/Top Pair radars replaced it on the next Soviet carrier, the Tblisi. Sea operations attempting to successfully target incoming threats using external ship or aircraft platforms also seem to have failed.
ChinaÂ’s first 6,600-ton missile destroyer with an Aegis-type four-plate phased array antenna is the Lanzhou DDG 170 launched in Jiangnan Shipyard in April 2003. The DDG 171 followed six months later. Their undesignated Chinese radar is different from the Aegis or Sky Watch phased array radars. This radar is C-band instead of L- or F-band, and it has convex curved arrays instead of flat panels. The four arrays are 4.6 meters high x 3.9 meters wide, and they face out from the forward deckhouse as on the U.S. DDG 51. China reportedly has purchased two advanced Russian phased array radars for a follow-on larger air defense DDG 103 ship that is under construction at the Dalien shipyard. The short one- or two-ship production runs are a trademark of post-Luda DDG designs. -
Why they want to buy???
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America scared what. They most probably already have next-gen Aegis out already.
They spend so much money and its been awhile since Aegis is out. I can't believe they are just sitting there and doing nothing to improve themselves.