Taiwan plans to buy 30 Apache Helicopters
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Originally posted by CM06:Please lah dude, dont be like (i dont know which one) robertteh or andrewpkyap.....dont bring politics here can?
This is miltarynuts forum.
Hear people complain elsewhere until very sian already.
And dont blow things out of proportion. He is paid 2+ mil he's going to be paid 3mil His increment is half a mil.
Thnx
That aside,
we have 20 Apache, we so small have 20. They so big only thinking of 30. -
I wasnÂ’t trying to bring local politics into this forum, I have been wondering for quite sometime what is our real commitment with ROC. This is just a hindsight.Originally posted by CM06:Please lah dude, dont be like (i dont know which one) robertteh or andrewpkyap.....dont bring politics here can?
This is miltarynuts forum.
Hear people complain elsewhere until very sian already.
And dont blow things out of proportion. He is paid 2+ mil he's going to be paid 3mil His increment is half a mil.
Thnx
That aside,
we have 20 Apache, we so small have 20. They so big only thinking of 30.
Obversely LHL felt that it was more important to make that trip than the political fallout with PRC. Could he be worried that he has to make a critical decision for Singapore if PLA decided to walk across ROC after he became PM? After all LHL did explicitly said we are not responsible if ROC declared independent! So what if ROC did not declared independent and PLA still walk across for other political reason. Than it bring back to the question what is our commitment to ROC does it involved military? Do we still keep our base in ROC and let the man station there get in the cross fire? -
I think they should purchase at least a 100 of such helicopters...
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We only lease space there. We dont own any base.
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LHL explicitly said if Taiwan initiated the move, Singapore cannot support.
Maybe what is unsaid, is more important. -
where is the guy who always go for Gundam de.. he he he..~
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No lar...all NS men and NSF will be evacuated from the island if it occurs.Originally posted by LazerLordz:LHL explicitly said if Taiwan initiated the move, Singapore cannot support.
Maybe what is unsaid, is more important.
And see how US react too. -
Which also means that we would need advanced warning from China, which in turn, we would be very likely to inform Taiwan as well.Originally posted by CM06:No lar...all NS men and NSF will be evacuated from the island if it occurs.
And see how US react too.
If China attacks without allowing us to evacuate our troops, what would your opinion be? Do we surrender our boys there or do we let them defend themselves. -
Well before war there will obviously be a buildup of tension, and it's hard to mobilize their army without Taiwan at least knowing something about it.
In that case the SAF would already long have left the potential area of battle. -
Aye, we might even receive discreet .....messages to ....leave...else...singaporean troops dying there for nothing will make a -huge- uproar..
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What is our stake in Taiwan? Our long term relationship with Taiwan was built with the KMT government, especially with Jiang Jing Guo. When Lee Teng Hui came on stage, that relationship just remained status because LTH was only keen to show that he was a better politician than LKY. Officially the relationship has not improved since.Originally posted by Arapahoe:I wasnÂ’t trying to bring local politics into this forum, I have been wondering for quite sometime what is our real commitment with ROC. This is just a hindsight.
Obversely LHL felt that it was more important to make that trip than the political fallout with PRC. Could he be worried that he has to make a critical decision for Singapore if PLA decided to walk across ROC after he became PM? After all LHL did explicitly said we are not responsible if ROC declared independent! So what if ROC did not declared independent and PLA still walk across for other political reason. Than it bring back to the question what is our commitment to ROC does it involved military? Do we still keep our base in ROC and let the man station there get in the cross fire?
What is left is the camp and training ground which are never ours, and our soldiers who are there for TRAINING only!!
Whatever happened to Taiwan, whether a war with the PRC or a typhoon or earthquake, our first priority is to protect our soldiers there. It is the duty of SAF to protect our soldiers who are trained overseas, in Thailand, Taiwan, India, Australia or anywhere from any cross fire. Our soldiers in Taiwan are not be part of our commitment to protect Taiwan!! If for any reason, a missile that appear to come from mainland landed in our camp and a few of our guys died, that will not be an excuse for the SAF to declare war on China.
Besides our soldiers, thousands of Singaporean living overseas, travelling on business and leisure, it will be the duty of the government to inform and evacuate in case of any wars, riots, typhoon, tsunami....SAF will be used to carry out such duties as and when necessary.
We do not have any commitment to be involved militarily in any war anywhere in the world, even in a war sanctioned by the UN, we could only send in volunteers. SAF is for the protection of Singaporean, our sovereignty, our territory. Taiwan is not part of us. -
SAF is for the protection of Singapore's supreme national interests.
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Unless intel completely miss the build up and PLA was able to achieve complete suprise. I am sure PLA has always been lookin at how to achieve suprise 1st wave and to what objectives they like to achieve.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Well before war there will obviously be a buildup of tension, and it's hard to mobilize their army without Taiwan at least knowing something about it.
In that case the SAF would already long have left the potential area of battle. -
Strategic surprise is highly unlikelyÂ… the Chinese are dealing with corruption and I think the C.I.A almost certainly has a few important people in the PLA on their payroll, as well as other means of figuring out if China is going to attack.Originally posted by Arapahoe:Unless intel completely miss the build up and PLA was able to achieve complete suprise. I am sure PLA has always been lookin at how to achieve suprise 1st wave and to what objectives they like to achieve.
Tactical surprise is something the Chinese will probably be working on improving, while the Taiwanese may know the Chinese are coming, they might not know when, where or how. -
I understand that part of SAF is to protect Singapore, and its interest on Singaporean abroad. and the facilities in ROC are not ours. I am not saying we would be declaring war with PRC.Originally posted by sgdiehard:What is our stake in Taiwan? Our long term relationship with Taiwan was built with the KMT government, especially with Jiang Jing Guo. When Lee Teng Hui came on stage, that relationship just remained status because LTH was only keen to show that he was a better politician than LKY. Officially the relationship has not improved since.
What is left is the camp and training ground which are never ours, and our soldiers who are there for TRAINING only!!
Whatever happened to Taiwan, whether a war with the PRC or a typhoon or earthquake, our first priority is to protect our soldiers there. It is the duty of SAF to protect our soldiers who are trained overseas, in Thailand, Taiwan, India, Australia or anywhere from any cross fire. Our soldiers in Taiwan are not be part of our commitment to protect Taiwan!! If for any reason, a missile that appear to come from mainland landed in our camp and a few of our guys died, that will not be an excuse for the SAF to declare war on China.
Besides our soldiers, thousands of Singaporean living overseas, travelling on business and leisure, it will be the duty of the government to inform and evacuate in case of any wars, riots, typhoon, tsunami....SAF will be used to carry out such duties as and when necessary.
We do not have any commitment to be involved militarily in any war anywhere in the world, even in a war sanctioned by the UN, we could only send in volunteers. SAF is for the protection of Singaporean, our sovereignty, our territory. Taiwan is not part of us.
The back drop of the relationship between LKY with Jiang Jin Guo was the height of communism in Asia, and LKY political fight againist communism during election. We may have agreed to stand solidarity politically with KMT in the 60.
But the zillion dollar question remain why LHL felt that ROC trip was such an important issue that was in his mind.
Speaking for myself If I were in his shoes and there are tons of things to worry about to be the PM of Singapore among other things I most likely look at the top 5 importants changllenge for Singapore....Yet 1 issue is to travel to ROC to see for himself.
Succession was only a matter of time for LHL, its no big secret and why did he not chose to travel 1 year earlier on a personal trip to see for himself? why travel to ROC knowing the relationship fallout with Singapore right before he assuming the role of political leadership?
And that is the nature of my cloud? don't tell me is a bad judgment. -
Ja ja you are right i forgot Uncle Sam has the greaterest weapon....Las Vegas...probably on high roller account.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Strategic surprise is highly unlikelyÂ… the Chinese are dealing with corruption and I think the C.I.A almost certainly has a few important people in the PLA on their payroll, as well as other means of figuring out if China is going to attack.
Tactical surprise is something the Chinese will probably be working on improving, while the Taiwanese may know the Chinese are coming, they might not know when, where or how. -
Your point is very valid. ROC has always been an important, yet unspoken part of our foreign policy, with Israel. The reality of international relations today and the regional politics in Asia mean that we cannot openly embrace these two states.Originally posted by Arapahoe:I understand that part of SAF is to protect Singapore, and its interest on Singaporean abroad. and the facilities in ROC are not ours. I am not saying we would be declaring war with PRC.
The back drop of the relationship between LKY with Jiang Jin Guo was the height of communism in Asia, and LKY political fight againist communism during election. We may have agreed to stand solidarity politically with KMT in the 60.
But the zillion dollar question remain why LHL felt that ROC trip was such an important issue that was in his mind.
Speaking for myself If I were in his shoes and there are tons of things to worry about to be the PM of Singapore among other things I most likely look at the top 5 importants changllenge for Singapore....Yet 1 issue is to travel to ROC to see for himself.
Succession was only a matter of time for LHL, its no big secret and why did he not chose to travel 1 year earlier on a personal trip to see for himself? why travel to ROC knowing the relationship fallout with Singapore right before he assuming the role of political leadership?
And that is the nature of my cloud? don't tell me is a bad judgment.
However, we have to look at this relationship we have with them, on the basis that both ROC and Israel helped us in our most dire moments, and formed the basis of our armed forces, the very nature of our sovereignty.
LHL had this to say to the PRC, that Singapore has a right and will define her national interest in her own terms and no one will dictate to us. The mass media missed this point, and instead focused on the more negative aspect of how we didn't show the PRC any respect etc. -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
a little deviation from the main topics. I thought he made a tactical error by explicitly giving his view in the news media where ambiguity might be better, although his view may not be for PRC but for ROC.
Your point is very valid. ROC has always been an important, yet unspoken part of our foreign policy, with Israel. The reality of international relations today and the regional politics in Asia mean that we cannot openly embrace these two states.
However, we have to look at this relationship we have with them, on the basis that both ROC and Israel helped us in our most dire moments, and formed the basis of our armed forces, the very nature of our sovereignty.
LHL had this to say to the PRC, that [b]Singapore has a right and will define her national interest in her own terms and no one will dictate to us. The mass media missed this point, and instead focused on the more negative aspect of how we didn't show the PRC any respect etc.[/b] -
I think perhaps he meant for it to be that way. A little public show can serve to make your counterpart think harder.Originally posted by Arapahoe:a little deviation from the main topics. I thought he made a tactical error by explicitly giving his view in the news media where ambiguity might be better, although his view may not be for PRC but for ROC.
*shrugs. -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Thats how the PRCs think. Its all about "mian zi." To the PRC, it was a simple, "you don't give us face." They are quick to forget whatever good that we've done for them too. That a lot of their scholars are receiving education at extremely reduced fees, the money we invest into Shenzhen and other projects.
Your point is very valid. ROC has always been an important, yet unspoken part of our foreign policy, with Israel. The reality of international relations today and the regional politics in Asia mean that we cannot openly embrace these two states.
However, we have to look at this relationship we have with them, on the basis that both ROC and Israel helped us in our most dire moments, and formed the basis of our armed forces, the very nature of our sovereignty.
LHL had this to say to the PRC, that [b]Singapore has a right and will define her national interest in her own terms and no one will dictate to us. The mass media missed this point, and instead focused on the more negative aspect of how we didn't show the PRC any respect etc.[/b]
Personally, if a war ever breaks out with ROC, I feel sure that the SG government would stand with US and the international community. Whatever commitments to both ROC and PRC we have are off the moment war breaks out. I'm sure SG will do its part to mediate the 2 Chinas when tensions escalate, but we'll definitely pull out with war.
Honestly, the chances of SAF troops in Taiwan getting involved in a firefight is slim. An all out amphibious assault on Taiwan can't be hidden, and we'd be out of there before the fighting starts.
And seriously, no point for China to launch a missile barrage at Taiwanese camps if they don't intend to make a massive amphibious landing. -
no ... not that the PRC was forgetful or ungrateful ... but they have to make the right "noises" too .... did you see any long term ramifications at all ? ... there were none ......
China knew where we stand, but they have to show where they stand too ... after that all was well again .....
I think they have been a lot more understanding than people would acknowledge ... take our F-5s for example .... and ST's conversion of taiwanese F-5s to tigereyes .... -
LKY used to travel to Taiwan every year, subsequently, even after the recognition of PRC by Republic of Singapore, there were many exchanges between the officials in Taiwan and Singapore. Singapore was even the venue for the cross straits talk between the two chinas. It is only when Lee Teng Hui started the move to amend ROC constitution, and the final change of government, then the exchanges between Taiwan and Singapore became few and far in between. I believe LHL had felt that he needed to understand the mindset of the leaders in the new ah bian government. It was not a bad judgement.Originally posted by Arapahoe:I understand that part of SAF is to protect Singapore, and its interest on Singaporean abroad. and the facilities in ROC are not ours. I am not saying we would be declaring war with PRC.
The back drop of the relationship between LKY with Jiang Jin Guo was the height of communism in Asia, and LKY political fight againist communism during election. We may have agreed to stand solidarity politically with KMT in the 60.
But the zillion dollar question remain why LHL felt that ROC trip was such an important issue that was in his mind.
Speaking for myself If I were in his shoes and there are tons of things to worry about to be the PM of Singapore among other things I most likely look at the top 5 importants changllenge for Singapore....Yet 1 issue is to travel to ROC to see for himself.
Succession was only a matter of time for LHL, its no big secret and why did he not chose to travel 1 year earlier on a personal trip to see for himself? why travel to ROC knowing the relationship fallout with Singapore right before he assuming the role of political leadership?
And that is the nature of my cloud? don't tell me is a bad judgment.
I have no problem if Singapore were to stand alongside ROC, against a communist PRC, if PRC had acted unreasonably.
But if the Taiwan issue is used by the US against PRC, Singapore should never be part of it.
If the new Taiwanese government began to dissociate Taiwan from China, as being done now, then the ah bian government is bringing his head to crash against PRC. Singapore should not be part of it.
I guess it was good for LHL to meet the ah bian government, the "shi da tian wang", the education minister, the late Defence Minister who called Singapore "Pi Sai"....he needed to see for himself what kind of people are there looking after ROC, (if he doesn't watch the "quan min da men guo" in channel 52, 10pm everyday) for him to decide if Singapore should side with Taiwan should there be conflict between the two.
The zillion dollars question is not why did he go, it is what did he conclude from his trip.
cheers. -
yuup!!...dat's y i said it was a "dream list".... i noe it will never ever come.. just dreamin......Originally posted by CM06:I hope you are donating the $$$. There's no way we can afford that many.
Buy liaoz, personnel to maintain, and people trained to use them leh? Storage space leh? Alot more $$$
Mindef dont have blank check.
I think Mindef is still accessing whether the AH-64D is suitable yet. Helicopter pilots are more talented than fighter pilots actually in terms of piloting skills. The Heli itself is always in unstable flight.
Fighterjet pilots are paid more because they have to do all their weird combat calculations while flying at the same time. Hence a WSO will help because he will lessen the load of the pilot.
Just like the subs,until we strenghten our SOPs and define, ops of subs, we will use them as a "trial". Combat ready, but trial nonetheless.
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Back to the OP: Has anyone read some of the scenarios of a Chinese attack on Taiwan? One plausible way is for the Chinese to focus on rapid assymetric warfare knowing the US has a weakness in rapid deployment for a large scale land war. It seems that that the first wave may involve missile strikes and cyber attacks on Taiwan's C4ISR to cut communication between commanders and the their units, coupled with airborne assaults on vital military and civilian infrastructure targets, including neutralising the top political and civilian people in Taiwan.
This first wave may be hard to detect (disguised as an exercise) or the Chinese can destroy US and Taiwanese spy satellites as they recently demonstrated that capability. It is a decapitation concept - cut off the head and the rest of the body is in confusion/paralysed. If executed very quickly by the Chinese, there may be no more organised resistance even before the Americans arrive, so the Ameircan mission changes from supporting Taiwan to "invading" Chinese-occupied Taiwan, which is a different ball game and may not have political support.
I'm not saying the Taiwanese soldiers are weak and give up easily, but from hearing comments from our soldiers who have exercised with them, they appear to lack initiative at the platoon to company level (compared to our soldiers). So if their command and control is destroyed, it could be a premature end without much fighting.
It appears that the Taiwanese shouldn't just beef up their conventional hardware like buying Apaches, destroyers and subs but also look into better protection of their C4ISR and guarding their leadership and maybe train their soldiers to operate more independently.
Some interesting reads:
http://www.globalfirepower.com/chinese_report.asp
http://www.c4isrjournal.com/story.php?F=2366056 -
But when PRC really aim their 1000 misslies and fire them to ROC,when the first hit ROC,hit cilivian,PRC is gonna get it back whacked by ROC... Can see the the ROC army are a bunch of dicated soldiers to protect their homeland... But when the sh!t hit the fan,SAF will be long gone back to SG... And if the fight is real,like in the earlier post,region will be dragged down by them...