What's will happen to the Ultimax?
-
Why increase the ROF? You'll remove most of the advantage of the constant recoil system in which the U100 is the strongest of all the SAWs, and that is to send a lot of rounds into a smaller group then most other systems in the world.
Also, from my personal experience with the thing... the ROF is more then enough to splatter or supress anything on the recieving end of it.
As to if it should be replaced, I don't know. I am in favour of a new SAW built on the lessons of the U100, they can call it the U200 or Ultimax 2 if they want, given the Yanks themselves are also looking into getting a next gen SAW (not XM8 variant) that is LIGHTER then the U100 (obviously though, given all the advances in technology).
So do we wait until all the tech matures before coming up with a new SAW and stick with what we have now? -
Like I posted before, 2 train of thoughts,.... higher ROF over lower ROF... I guess for me its the toss in the coin ! Most SPec ops people I talk to or have shot competition with prefer the higher ROF since they can do suppresive fire much better.... but again! I guess it is a matter of doctrine and the user's application.
YEah! A redesign would be good and improve upon the flaws and it will come out ahead!
there is a report in here to show a linkless box magainze from HK! maybe that would work better than the drum we have!
http://www.hkpro.com/HK23E.HTM
DaveC! -
The box mags look cool, but we won't know until we actually give it a run at the range I guess...
-
Like all HK products ! they will always be over engineer and expensive as hell...
I am currently using the new HK design M16 magazine ! Man! it makes the Mags we use looks like toys! they change the curvature of the mags and the fit and finish is just phenominal! but the price is $50 for the HK mags and $12 for the normal ones!
DaveC -
If it costs USD50 for a good M16 mag, how much will a U100 drum costs?Originally posted by davechng:Like all HK products ! they will always be over engineer and expensive as hell...
I am currently using the new HK design M16 magazine ! Man! it makes the Mags we use looks like toys! they change the curvature of the mags and the fit and finish is just phenominal! but the price is $50 for the HK mags and $12 for the normal ones!
DaveC
Someone on another forum mentioned USD150 per U100 drum mag.
-
Looks like the 1206 for losing magazines outfield can K.O. the hapless soldier liao.
-
US$150 for the U100 drum sound about right ! I paid $200 for my Beta mags! SO! $150 is not out of line! Drums are never cheap unless we talking those Chinese Drums.... we use to pay $25 for those 75 rders and $35 for the 100 rders...
DAveC! -
Hi,
The Ultimax's 100-rd drum magazine can be hand- loaded without any acessories in the field.
Back in 1994-1993, when my NSF platoon conducted day and night gunnery live-firings, each soldier in the platoon and more fired 90-rds each with the drum mag on the SAW. There were 3 SAW at the firing points. We did not oil the drum mag. The only field care we performed was to oil the barrel and the chamber after each firing details. Sustained bursts were fired too, though avoided since the rounds drifted away from the targets. We loaded 90 rds instead of 100rds to avoid mag malfunction due to no-spring tension.
I guess it is for practical reasons that S'pore infantry and other foot-sloggers are not equipped with the 100rd drums. I was/am transported on armour vehicle. I have a mechanized mule to lug the cumbersome fully- loaded 4x100rd drum carrier around. Fully loaded, the 4x100rd drum carrier is HEAVY. Look at the GIs and Australian Diggers in the Vietnam War. The big buggers were carrying minimum essential combat load to function effectively in the harsh weather and difficult terrain conditions. Fast forward to the Presence, the lesson is still applicable. Keep the individual soldiers' skeleton battle order light so that we can be effective in Asia environment.
I recalled a study done by SPC, Soldier Performance Center, in the 90's. For an average soldier to remain combat effective in combat tempo, his individual combat load should be limited to 15% of his body weight. When we conduct route marches in the past, we went to great length to distribute our platoon stores and combat load among the soldiers. Now, with more electronic gadgets, more batteries and maintenance kits, we have to introduce the Load-Bearing Vest, bigger full-pack to lug the load!!! It is not gung-hu at all. We had to wear armour vest now since we are weight-down and lumbering.
Singapre's foot-sloggers' days just got tougher. -
What would be really great is if we can find some information about the evaluation of the U100 from the Americans regarding their view of the drum. I'm sure they put the U100 and its drum through reliability and endurance tests.Originally posted by aikchongtan:Hi,
The Ultimax's 100-rd drum magazine can be hand- loaded without any acessories in the field.
Back in 1994-1993, when my NSF platoon conducted day and night gunnery live-firings, each soldier in the platoon and more fired 90-rds each with the drum mag on the SAW.
If indeed SAF will issue them during war time as "Let" suggested, most SAW gunners will be quite unfamiliar with it as, first of all, the weapons weight will increase by 2kg fully-loaded. And handling of the bulky drums will also take some getting used to.
In other words, are you saying that infantrymen are issued 30-rd mags as SOP and not because the drums are expensive for training or delicate etc etc?Originally posted by aikchongtan:I guess it is for practical reasons that S'pore infantry and other foot-sloggers are not equipped with the 100rd drums.
If 30-rd is SOP then it is a shame, as the 8 x 30rd mags the SAW gunner carry will mean that he has no more ammo than the normal rifleman. And firing auto, he will expend each mag rather quickly.Originally posted by aikchongtan:
What do they look like? Do you guys carry them for training? Are they some kind of back pack? Or some cross-sling bandolier? Many people say that changing mag on a U100 is fast. I guess this depends largely on how easy is this drum carrier to use.
Fully loaded, the 4x100rd drum carrier is HEAVY.Originally posted by aikchongtan:
Anyone who've stumbled through a pitch black forest at night on a 10km movement to contact will agree.
Keep the individual soldiers' skeleton battle order light so that we can be effective in Asia environment.Originally posted by aikchongtan:
I carried at least 25kg including the ancient radio equipment, that's about 40+% of my body weight. Both my knees are now kaput.
For an average soldier to remain combat effective in combat tempo, his individual combat load should be limited to 15% of his body weight.
15% of body weight is for Civil Defence.
Originally posted by aikchongtan:
Soon we'll be like the Americans and we can't fight anywhere unless we are driven there or heli-dropped etc. We'll be road-bound.
We had to wear armour vest now since we are weight-down and lumbering. Singapre's foot-sloggers' days just got tougher. -
Hi,
Can't imagine an average SAF SAW gunner going on assault with 4xdrum mag and 9xbox mag. As it is clearing SOC will be a nightmare
During my NSF days, the 4 drums were carried in a sling-style carrier. Imagine a Milo-tin with one sling except that the tin open sideway with 4 divided- space.
SAF fighting doctrine is blitz-oriented. That mentality permeates down all the way to the infantry section tactics. Compare our 7-men infantry section to the traditional 9>men fighting section, our fire footprint is heavier but narrow. The limitation in frontage has to be mitigated by aggressive maneouver by each member of the section.
When we assault, the self-contained SAW gunners leap & bound forward as well as part of the assault element. They fix bayonent as well. Such aggressive tactics serve to carry the enemy ahead of us as we close in. No quarters are given nor asked when we have to fight with lesser strength. Your unit's aggressive posturing & attitude will intimidate the enemy and exponentially heighten your unit's confidence and integrity. Such aggressive tactics were ably demonstrated by WWI German storm-troopers and WWII SSs and more recently, in Falkland conflict by the British paras. It is brutally effective when you have the determination and brawn to pull it off. At such close range, when the fire-fight is vicious and you can see the white of your enemy's eye, box mag is faster to switch; remedying stoppages is less heart-stopping. (GPMG gunners are equipped with small capacity assault mag for such situation).
GPMG, HMG and small-calibre cannon fitted with tripod, pintles and etc should be dedicated to the stand-off sustained firing role. Their barrels are constructed for such express purpose. I can't imagine a section carrying half-dozen of spare SAW barrel for close-in fighting. I would rather carry more M203 / hand grenades and box mags for sharing with my riflemen and SAW gunners.
Of course, having said all of the above, I love the drum mag
They are reliable and simple to use. In fixed positions, when we are emplaced, the drum mag is a real confidence boaster against infantry assault waves. -
What is the marksman score for SAW ATP? I dun remember liao...
-
allow me to digress for a moment
not sure if this have been asked earlier
but recently the US marine were evaluating the U100 and was featured in one of the guns magazines, sold in singapore as well. They showed the U100 in some inconventional config, ie. P-rails and such
What were the result of the evaluation in the end ..anyone?
-
Wow!!!! Thats a very good mod to the Ultimax100. Most of the problem i experience before seems to be rectified. The magazine well seems to be deeper by a lot, thus preventing magazine droping off. They seem to have introduce some polymer casing to protect some parts of the ultimax. A good red dot aiming sight over the crappy iron sights.Originally posted by tek_koh:allow me to digress for a moment
not sure if this have been asked earlier
but recently the US marine were evaluating the U100 and was featured in one of the guns magazines, sold in singapore as well. They showed the U100 in some inconventional config, ie. P-rails and such
What were the result of the evaluation in the end ..anyone? -
Anyone got the full article about the USMC evalution of the u100?
-
Hi,
Take a closer look at the twin-drum mag for this modified version. When loaded on the weapon, it will give the SAW a fatter side profile compared to the present 100rd single-drum mag. It utilized a tall M16-style box mag lip to feed rounds from both drums into the weapon. The twin-drums distribute the ammo load evenly on both sides of the weapon. The 100rd single drum mag will protrude and occupy more space below the weapon. In ergonomic sense, both drum designs are unsuitable for close-in fighting. Otherwise, let's equip all our riflemen with drum mag for their SAR21 Let find out more about the mag design specification and field trial observation before we conclude on the reliability of both design.
Based on this modification, I assume the Americans are uneasy with the current well-less mag feed construction. Since the side-mounted 2-pin mag catch release button has been retained on this modified version, I assume the present 2-pin mag catch has been retained.
Actually, I see merits on the well-less design. Allow easier access to clean the firing chamber and clear any stoppages such as double feeding, ruptured cartridges and etc. My platoon never encounter the mag-drop-by-accident scenario. Anyone care to share their personal experience?
-
Looks like there is more changes to the US marine Corp IAR program..Initially we hear the IAR will replace the SAW!.. BUT.... the SAW in the Marines looks like it will soldier on and the IAR seems to be a new concept and is a Supplement to the MArine Squad.
there is quite a bit of discussion and looks like there are more than 20 vendors have submitted their design .... big names like FN, General Dynamics, LRWC etc have put in.... do not know what is the verdict yet... there may be some funding issues..
Unofficially I hear that GD, FN and LRWC are selected ! did not hear about our U100! YET!
Well keep you guys update about the Selction!
DaveC -
Any idea what the other people submitted for trials?Originally posted by davechng:Looks like there is more changes to the US marine Corp IAR program..Initially we hear the IAR will replace the SAW!.. BUT.... the SAW in the Marines looks like it will soldier on and the IAR seems to be a new concept and is a Supplement to the MArine Squad.
there is quite a bit of discussion and looks like there are more than 20 vendors have submitted their design .... big names like FN, General Dynamics, LRWC etc have put in.... do not know what is the verdict yet... there may be some funding issues..
Unofficially I hear that GD, FN and LRWC are selected ! did not hear about our U100! YET!
Well keep you guys update about the Selction!
DaveC
It'll be a shame if U100 didn't get selected yet again. The U100 is the natural choice.
But again, some websites quoted people in the US as having referred to the U100 as "jammomatic".
An article from Defense Review seemed to imply that the USMC came up with the term IAR just so they can go out and buy some U100. -
I wonder why i was called ultimax 100 in the first place.
-
LWRC have a piston based M16 type with open bolt and beta mag, COlt makes a piston M4 type rifle also.... do not know what FN and General Dynamics have in the submittion!
YEah! I hope ST would do more to get to this project! It would be a great boost in their sales!
DAveC! -
On a few gun site forums, there are former SAF ppl writing rave reviews about the U100.
One guy while admitting that he has never fired a drum mag, claimed that in his 2 years, the U100 never once jammed when firing live rounds from M16 mags.
Either he is very lucky, or he fired the U100 like once or twice, or he is too full of patriotism.
A weapon (or magazine) does does not jam - ever - has not yet been produced.
During one live firing, my "borrowed" U100 had a double feeding that took 15 minutes to clear. It could be the faulty M6 mag, but there you go. It jams.
Any other experience with U100 reliability issue to share? -
American defense purchases is always linked to constituency porkbarrel dollars and the buy American mood.
I'm not surprised if we didn't win the USMC contract. But it doesn't mean they will not purchase a small amount for their socom boys, does it? -
On my platoon flanking life firing my U100 simply failed to chamber any round no matter what mag was used or trick was tried (supporting the mag to give it a better feed), it simply kept half-feeding.Originally posted by moca:A weapon (or magazine) does does not jam - ever - has not yet been produced.
During one live firing, my "borrowed" U100 had a double feeding that took 15 minutes to clear. It could be the faulty M6 mag, but there you go. It jams.
Any other experience with U100 reliability issue to share?
That weapon was certianly not FFF and I had no idea how on earth it got through to the life shoot. And it made me kinda dissapointed given I was looking forward to shredding some stuff with automatic fire.
It could be due to the fact that the weapons we were using at SISPEC were simply very old and at the end of their service life. Some were even field-modded hybrids of Mk.2 guns with Mk.3 parts! So one can get an idea of their general state of repair. I'm not too surprised that some are not FFF.
On the other hand, at another life shoot, the U100 I was using worked well and burned through all my mags with any issue. It was lots of fun then.
Warstock will probably quite a lot more reliable, given the weapons themselves will be more or less mint condition.
The U100 is hopless at shooting blanks though, often becoming a bolt action sniper rifle and the silly pouch for collecting the RAI they designed just does not work most and ends up broken most of the time. -
the bolt action sniper rifle of U100 is probably due to the built up of carbon on the gas regulator..
from my experience, the mag cannot b loaded with more than 25 rounds.. or else the chance of jamming is high..
U100 wasnt design for night time use.. u need to rezero the LAD very often bcos it will become loose after firing..
the C tool for U100 is simply useless.. -
Wow, U100 for SAF now comes with LAD? Times have changed!!Originally posted by mr_sotong:the bolt action sniper rifle of U100 is probably due to the built up of carbon on the gas regulator..
from my experience, the mag cannot b loaded with more than 25 rounds.. or else the chance of jamming is high..
U100 wasnt design for night time use.. u need to rezero the LAD very often bcos it will become loose after firing..
the C tool for U100 is simply useless..
Anyway, SAF blanks don't work on the U100 simply because they are too weak to cycle the heavier bolt. That plus the blank attachment is usually faulty.
And maybe the constant recoil system of the U100 means the bolt travel longer distance. Despite nearly 4 decades of cursing and swearing by countless generations of NS men, SAF persist on using a shxtty blank cartridge that is simply NOT up to the job.
It can barely cycle an M16, let alone a LMG.
EDIT: What's a "C tool"? -
LAD on a U100?
The C tool is used to calibrate the gas regulator I think..