What's will happen to the Ultimax?
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I think our friend here worked around it somehow... no sense having a beta-c on a semi-automatic weapon. I'm jealous already. =/Originally posted by chanjyj:Walao eh... don't make me jealous of your armoury
Which city in the US you live in? I thought there is a ban on fully automatic firearms now, only semi-auto firearms can be procured? -
HI SHotgun!
WHat U see here are a few Class 3 full auto weapons!both the M4 are the real deal and not the Semi version!
YEah! it is kind of pointless to have a beta mag on a semi!
DaveC! -
Nothing will happen to it unless there came a new invention better than it...
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Dang I can't seem to dig up the link on some dudes who tried it, if my memory serves me correctly it was the Africans who got hold of some U100s and converted them to shoot semi plus scope, turning them into sniper weapons.Originally posted by moca:I don't know who actually tried to make the U100 a sniper rifle when there are so many better options out there. Most AR will outshoot the U in semi. It's probably one of those things you try after a few beers too many.
When you squeeze trigger on the U100 the first thing to happen is the heavy bolt carrier sliding forward. This will throw your aim off slightly. So if you are talking about pin point accuracy like that of the M16, you won't get it with the U.
Well apparently they got it to work... maybe they had a lack of better firearms to deal with, and though that the U100 made a good field mod, who knows? Too much kaht maybe?
But hey, if the Yanks managed to turn their M2HB into a ubersniper rifle... anything's possible. -
It is not uncommon to mount scopes on MGs.
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So your guns are older than 1986?Originally posted by davechng:in Great State of Texas .. DAllas!
There is restrictions on FUll auto weapons! but civillian can still register and buy machine gun if you register the machine gun, do a title transfer, FBI check and and a $200 tax stamp!
MOst people just buy semi auto stuff! the Fuill auto stuff was ban for importation and manufacture in 1986! so anythiung before is grandfathered and can be had!
Surpressor can still be bought! but register it as a Class 3 weapons just like the Full auto stuff!
DaveC -
I just re-posted this from the SAR-21 thread.Originally posted by Let:Please, unless you really know the facts, let's not make wild conjecture about the reliability & safety. It is reliable & certainly safe. The Croatians loved it during the Serbian war. There are no confirmed reports otherwise in all the 20 years.
The reason the U100 drum magazine is not widely used in the SG army is the difficulty with hand loading to the max (100 rounds) cost due to the strength of the spring. That & the cost.
For training purposes, the need to reload regularly and the cost of sending it back for machine reloading makes it costly for peacetime use. Believe me, they have stockpiles of it ... when it comes to war time ... it'll be issued pronto.
Its the same case with all large capacity magazines since time immemorial. The Thompson sub-machinegun during WWII was the same. The mobsters (clean urban setting, dodgy money, macho scare factor) used the drum but ironically not the troops during WWII. Even then its not even anywhere near 100 rounds.
The cost is also an issue with all modern "large" capacity magazines. Look at the price of the P90 mag.
Some misconceptions I noted:
1) C-Mags
They are not the answer. If only because they need graphite lubricants in order to hand load!
Its tough enough to expect soldiers to clean/oil their rifles during combat. To expect them to lubricate their magazine is ridiculous to me. I'd rather be maintaining the rifle.
Incidentally, the American designer commissioned by Singapore to invent the beloved Ultimax 100 is also the inventor of the C-Mag. The original version was all black, nylon plastic. No lubrication needed. But the current C-mag makers put in a clear Lexan back to enable viewing of the remaining rounds. Penalty - the lubricant. If u dun use it, it'll jam too.
Of course, the cost of each mag again. The U100 drum is simpler.
2) Belt-feeding
I dun know why so many ppl yearn for belt-feeding. Be careful about the devil you ask for.
Read the US troops current top complaints. The M249 is one of them. The Iraq experience has shown that its slower to reload, mechanism is more complex & prone to reliability problems especially when encountering sand/mud, cleaning/oiling/maintenance is a pain as a result, the gun needs to divert more gas to provide the energy to "pull" the belt through the system, which means that theoretically, given the same barrel length, less propellant goes towards pushing the projectile = less projectile energy/accuracy/range etc., the ammo on a per round basis is heavier & more costly due to the metal links.
I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. If you use the 100 rd drum everyday, you will not be even wishing for belt ammo.
That forms the basis why the USMC is evaluating the LMG concept for which the U100 is the only EXISTING product that fits ALL its requirements without modification.
As to the perceived disadvantages, they are a non-issue:
1) Why do you need 200 rounds, when you know that the U100 is the most accurate LMG/SAW in the world? Our boys representing the SG army in the Aussie combat skills competitions ALWAYS top score against all the US/Aussie/NZ/Brit or whatever countries taking part - all using the FN M249.
The whole point is to concentrate the bursts into tight groupings. Make every round count. Use short accurate bursts. The U100 outhits the M249 ALL THE TIME.
Only Hollywood likes unlimited rounds. Real soldiers have to bloody lug them around.
The U100 means less weight penalty not only gun wise but ammo wise. The strain on the logistics chain is more manageable too.
2) The U100 weighs 10lbs as opposed to the 15 lbs of the M249.
I DON'T EVER WANT US TO BE USING THE M249. If u've ever done your road marches or jungle exercises, u'd be crazy to want to struggle with a weapon 50% heavier or with 200 round ammo boxes or worse... noisy clinky ammo belts!
Same barrel length & overall gun length. But the U100 is infinitely more usable with a folding stock too.
3) The U100 can use the 30 rd mags wheras the M249 needs another complex /costly/heavy adapter.
4) Speed of loading / self-sufficiency.
Besides the oft mentioned doctrines of the SAW gunner as integral to the assault maneuvers, the SG army is quite unique with its 7 man squad. Population constraint, what to do? Yet still must maximise firepower right?
The SAW gunner has to be self-sufficient and able to reload as quickly as any other soldier using the 30 rd mag.
With the M249, you'd need another soldier for support, if not for quicker loading, then to carry the bloody ammo! Which the gunner tends to waste because he is far less accurate and tends to squeeze off using longer bursts!
See the vicious cycle?
5) Ability to handload - moot point
For goodness sakes, how the hell do you intend to hand link individual bullets from M16/M4s into belt form while in the field? Using glue? Sewing kit?
What has been bandied about is the issue of small mechanical loaders to "lever" the ammo reload in the field though, that could be the answer. -
there should have night vision aiming scope mounted on SAW.. LAD bracket will always loosen when the weapon is cooled..
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I read that the MK4 has a P-Rail or something and I believe that will allow the mounting of scopes.Originally posted by mr_sotong:there should have night vision aiming scope mounted on SAW.. LAD bracket will always loosen when the weapon is cooled.. -
It always bugs me...
How are SAW gunners going to carry their 100 round mags? Where are they going to place on the combat webbing?
I am sure SAW gunners carry more than 1 100 round mags... -
Originally posted by davechng:
pics of magazines with bullets or its airsoft.
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and WTF!?
the akSU-74's fire selector is set to auto?
dude, you really need to learn some basic gun safety.
nice elcan and eo-tech , not to mention the SCAR bipod grip
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He was former Singaporean, former SAF, now live in US. And yes, that is REAL guns..Originally posted by ktk:pics of magazines with bullets or its airsoft.
and WTF!?
the akSU-74's fire selector is set to auto?
dude, you really need to learn some basic gun safety.
nice elcan and eo-tech , not to mention the SCAR bipod grip
Oh btw, that is only a small portion of his gigantic inventory.. he has pistols, blah blah blah. Only thing I think he don't have is MATADOR -
Gee...firearms and alcohol don't mix. Respect the weapon and it will protect you, disregard it and it will be the master over you.Originally posted by moca:It's probably one of those things you try after a few beers too many.
Hmm..nt really familiar with the Ultimax 100 weapon, but have been able to fire it 2/3 times and handle it during open house etc. Just my 2 cents, I was wondering...the U100 SAW is fundamentally designed to provide high volume of sustained fire and yet be a weapon that allows the user to progress at the rate his section proceeds at. Yes? Prolonged firing of any weapon will cause heat build up and rapid wearing out of the weapon right?Thus is there a possibility that our SAW gunners are issued with 30 round mags as part of a training doctrine, to ensure that they make their bursts last and count as each time they load, they only have 30 rounds to play with. So when the magic button is pushed, SAW gunners are issued with the 100 drum mags. They will be conditioned to fire the weapon in bursts as they trained with the 30 round box mags,due to muscle memory perhaps?
But on the flip side, I do not agree with this as the gunners may not be trained with the 100 round drum, resulting in operation issues etc. Besides, perhaps can someone answer this, if using a 100 round drum mag, if an IA is encountered, is it easy to clear? Lastly...an ideal SAW weapon, haha...I did say I would wish to lay my hands on something similiar to the H&K 416, but of course, belt-fed for me with the option of using STANMAGs. -
Well! Ktk! U don;t need to teach me gunsafety! these guns are unloaded by myself and was place for photoshoot.Originally posted by ktk:pics of magazines with bullets or its airsoft.
and WTF!?
the akSU-74's fire selector is set to auto?
dude, you really need to learn some basic gun safety.
nice elcan and eo-tech , not to mention the SCAR bipod grip
for your information! all AK selector when is fully down in Semi auto! when it is on one notch up it is full auto. so you have it backwards!
the Bipod is call Grip pod! very well made and it works like a champ! very lightweight also!
Hee hee ! still trying to find me RPG-7 and "matador" if I can have it here
DaveC -
Heh Moca
there are some issues that is a matter of doctrine and training and implementation of the SAW! I have talk to several SAW gunnner or operators that uses the M249 and the HK equivilent!
All of the M249 series have higher rate of fire than the U100 we have... its a matter of opinion..... a lot liked the higher ROF .... although the lower ROF will give you better controllability and accuracy!
We can argue here all day of which is better.... but I guess all these lies with your mission, your requirement and what you are empolying the system as!
I am in favour of a lower ROF like 500 to 600 rpm for full auto! you can walk the round easily and controllability and handling is good! anything beyond that is hjust way too fast! the extreme case being the MG42 which is so fast! Iin fact my M4 if stock will shoot 800 to 900 rpm on FA! and I put a heavy buffer on it to slow it down to 600! now I like it!
As for the U100's 100 rd drum which is not design well and reliability suffers, .... they either have to improve on that or go with somthing better. in real life where dirt, sand and crute gets into the mags that further degrades the reliability of the system! and having a bad feeding system is not acceptable in the real world.
U100.. could defintly be improve upon!
DaveC! -
Hey dave, ye gonna be there permanently? well i'm most prolly flying up to study in Wichita in aug / nxt jan. awaiting acceptance reply.. Perhaps could meet up during my vacation/freetime..Originally posted by davechng:in Great State of Texas .. DAllas!
There is restrictions on FUll auto weapons! but civillian can still register and buy machine gun if you register the machine gun, do a title transfer, FBI check and and a $200 tax stamp!
MOst people just buy semi auto stuff! the Fuill auto stuff was ban for importation and manufacture in 1986! so anythiung before is grandfathered and can be had!
Surpressor can still be bought! but register it as a Class 3 weapons just like the Full auto stuff!
DaveC
Btw, different states have different rules abt firearms right? What the catch like in Kansas? And wat requirements before i can even buy one...? else i'll juz stick to airsoft for the time being.. -
HI Moonstrike ! Welcome!
YEs! most definte each state has very differnt gunlaws! .... I think Kansas is not one of those communist state! so you will be fine!
AS a non citizen or we call immigrant alien.... in some states you have to buy a hunting lisence, prove of residency for 3 months! which means proof you live in the address for 3 months with your bills ( telephone bill, etc ) a valid drivers lisence with no records! you can buy a gun! .. 18 for long guns ( shotgun, rifle, assualt rifle) that is semi auto and 21 for pistols!.. during purchase , do a NICS check ( ATF and FBI type check if you have any prior conviction) and once approve you can pay and get your gun!
Kansas do have Conceal hand gun carry! in some states non citizen cannot get it or apply but in Texas you can!... go thru a 10 hr class and handgun proficieny test.. FBI fingerprinting and check! with the CHL you can buy guns wihtout the NICS check becasue you already got check during your CHL aplication.
ANyway! you can contact me in my email! [email protected]
wellcome to come to Texas!
DaveC -
oh yeah its called a gripod XDOriginally posted by davechng:Well! Ktk! U don;t need to teach me gunsafety! these guns are unloaded by myself and was place for photoshoot.
for your information! all AK selector when is fully down in Semi auto! when it is on one notch up it is full auto. so you have it backwards!
the Bipod is call Grip pod! very well made and it works like a champ! very lightweight also!
Hee hee ! still trying to find me RPG-7 and "matador" if I can have it here
DaveC
forgot lar!
rpg-7? what variant? Rpg-7Vr with the tandem warhead? teehee!
what intrigues me is that AUG...i heard AUG's are hell expensive , lik ard 2.5K to 3K in the states! -
The last post I made, I was re-posting something from a guy name "Let" who posted in the SAR-21 thread.Originally posted by davechng:Heh Moca
there are some issues that is a matter of doctrine and training and implementation of the SAW! I have talk to several SAW gunnner or operators that uses the M249 and the HK equivilent!
....
U100.. could defintly be improve upon!
DaveC!
So those points aren't mine.
My position is this:
If they can improve the drum, the U100 will be perfect.
If they can't, then belt feed should be considered.
But "Let" points out that the Croats were very happy with the drums. I don't know how he got that info. It would be great if he can direct us to the source as I am very interested in real combat accounts with the U100.
Some people at the Filipino forum also said their guys loved the U100 that they got to trial with. Though there was no specific mention of the drum. -
eh dave... answer my question leh...
your guns all older than 1986 since the ban on importation of automatic arms came into place in 1986 isit? -
Hi!Originally posted by chanjyj:eh dave... answer my question leh...
your guns all older than 1986 since the ban on importation of automatic arms came into place in 1986 isit?
although sound simple but is a complex problem! I have a register sear! it is part of the gun that make it a full auto register machine gun!.. so the sear is made before 1986! and the base gun is not!
U can get a brand new Bushmaster , dpms or other AR, and put in with the require bolt carrier and lower parts and with the registered sear! you have a brand new M4.
DaveC -
HI MOca
Agree with you.... I was suprise that even the Mk4 U100 still uses a flawed feeding system.... SO sad! I wish they would have learn somthing than slap thing s on it and call it a differnt variant!
so many people have worked with drums, the RUssians with the RPK,RPD, the BEta, the U100, the MGI 90 rder drum... all comes to the same problem of reliability!
Not to mention those PPSH41 and thompson MOdel 1928 .....
DaveC! -
I think everyone, including Dave, love the Ultimax. None is in any doubt that the U100 outshot and out performed the M249 in accuracy. Given a chance, I, and many others, will take the U100 over a M249 beast. So no need to "re-invent the wheel" and preach to the converted.Originally posted by Let:The fact remains that it replaced the M60, which was more like a GPMG by today's standards, 7.62mm, weight, size & all. Not to slight the M249 but its easy to see why it was considered a major improvement over its predecessor - as a SAW.
etc etc etc
Understand that: Nobody here wants the M249.
We are asking some questions and they are:
• why the drum was never issued?
• is the drum reliable?
• what will happen to U100 post SAR-21?
• is belt-feeding a good alternative for the next U100 version?
I am a layman, and all my points are my own and not based on some inside knowledge. However, you seem to be very authoritative when you insisted that the drums were not issued because they need to be factory-loaded and that's costly.
YET...
If this is true then how come 7.62 belts - which also need to be factory loaded - were issued with every excercise, live or blanks? Can it be that belts are cheaper for the factory to load than the drums?
Furthermore, from what I read, the drum need only be reloaded by an armourer with a simple reloading tool - and not some giant expensive robotic contraption. Or perhaps you mean transporting the empty mags back to base is too costly for the mighty SAF?
Next question is the reliablility of the drums. You go on and on about how terrible the M249 is. Yet we are more interested in how reliable the U100 drum is, never mind the M249.
How many U100 drums do you fire everyday?Originally posted by Let:If you use the 100 rd drum everyday, you will not be even wishing for belt ammo.
Dude, I have never even seen a U100 drum in SAF apart from open house or some pictures of sales demo to foreigners. None of my SAW gunners have ever fired their weapons from a drum. Of course, maybe this is because we are from some crap infantry unit so maybe you have an entirely different experience. So please share.
The next question is about what will happen to the U100 post M16?
So, in your opinion, what will happen, do we maintain the stauts quo, do we change the U100 to take SAR-21 mags? This also imply a change of the U100 drum.
Or what?
The last question is the reliability of belts:
You claim that belt-feeding is terrible. Is belt-feeding terrible for reliablility in general, or is it that certain belt-feeding guns are unrealiable?
I know, for a fact, that belt feeding can be VERY RELIABLE. The 50-year old FN MAG, the 80-year old Browning M2 are all living proof. Not to mention the scores of WW1 and WW2 belt-fed guns of all sides.
On the other hand, many drum fed weapons suffered from reliablity problems including the Thompson. Which is why the US stopped issuing Thompson drums during WW2. The Bren also had a 100-rd drum mag for air-defense role which was also not generally issued due to reliability problems.
I am merely asking if belt-feed might be an option for the U100 IF the drums are indeed unreliable.
Me neither... but nobody is asking you to. The M249 is NOT the only belt-feeding gun in the world. That's the wrong tree you are barking up.Originally posted by Let:I DON'T EVER WANT US TO BE USING THE M249.
Belt-feeding is slower to reload? How much slower? Does it take more than 1 minute to switch between belts that come contained in canvas pouches or plastic boxes?
And switching between bulky U100 drums is what? lightning speed?
With 100 rounds of either drum or belts, you shouldn't be reloading all that often, anyway. And most people without a death wish will duck behind cover to reload even a pistol.
And is the SAW gunner being out of action for 1 minute to reload a a dire consequence. Maybe, but the SAW is NOT the only weapon in a section. -
AGree MOca
M249 and u100 both have it pros and cons!
since I handle both the M249 , Hk21e and HK23e, and U100.. I wish some of the features is made into the U100
Namely the higher ROF, belt fed or a more reliable hi capacity feeding system.
I ike the roburst, handling and lightweight of the U100! ... certian feature still needs to be look into
DaveC -
I actually feel the robustness of the U100 can be improved, especially the co.cking handle.Originally posted by davechng:AGree MOca
M249 and u100 both have it pros and cons!
since I handle both the M249 , Hk21e and HK23e, and U100.. I wish some of the features is made into the U100
Namely the higher ROF, belt fed or a more reliable hi capacity feeding system.
I ike the roburst, handling and lightweight of the U100! ... certian feature still needs to be look into
DaveC
Apparently, if you don't return the charging handle to the forward position after co.cking, the the first shot fired will slam the handle to the front and may result eventually with breakage.
Well, with regards to capacity... I don't know how many of you have noticed it, but we sometimes have 2 SAW gunners in each section. This means that whether they used 30rds or 100rds magazines, the firepower is already double that of most other armies with only one SAW per section.