What's will happen to the Ultimax?
-
Ney, last I checked this hasn't stopped plenty of other designs from coming up with their own proprietary mags as solutions to the issue of the shortcomings of the STANAG.Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:Making the SAR-21 take only proprietary plastic mags is a mistake to begin with. If current STANAG mags are bad, I'm sure a better one can be made, including adding the see-thru option. If STK put their mind to it, I don't see why this can't be done. Diemaco of Canada has already made a more reliable STANAG mag. The British also use their own more robust STANAG mags for their SA80 rifles.
At the end of the day you can only improve the STANAG mag that much- you certainly can't make it out of polymer and attempts to make it of more robust material cause weight gains and are at best a stopgap to the issues of that magazine system. The improved metal mags will still dent under sufficent abuse and wear and what have you not.
The truth of the matter is, this who magazine system is in bad need of a overhaul to a new polymer standard, but until that is done we are stuck with a metal mag that can often prove to be the weak link in what are otherwise excellent firearms.
AFAIK, the SAR can easily be made to accept STANAGs, as the export versions have long shown... but for some reason the SAF didn't want it in the version they used.
That said, I'll take a SAR polymer mag over any metal magazine system anytime. The weight-reliability ratio just works, it is my opinion we should be working towards converting all our 5.56mm firearms to run on the polymer magazine system then having to stick our firearms with the STANAG system. -
So it is not really unacceptable. All under a minute at most.Originally posted by beavan:all you need to do is to open the cover of the ammo box containing the 7.62 belt, slot it into the relevant holding area, open the cover of the GPMG, pull the belt out and feed it in and close the cover of the GPMG.
cock it and u can start fire. at least 5 secs if u have the box of ammo beside you, at most a minute if you have to pry open the damn ammo box.
Replacing a big fat 100-round drum will be faster but I really think the difference between drum and belt will be seconds, not minutes.
But with a 100-rounds of either drum or belt, you won't be reloading your weapon that often anyway. -
Can try a box feed magazine instead with a 100 rnd belt feed, utilizing the magazine catch for the 30 rndclip....
Works really cool for the Stoner 63 weapon system....
Dont know will jam more or not la
Oh yeah, forgotten to add that the Ultimax have one of the deadliest muzzle velocity of all 5.56 LMG... 990m/s if im not wrong -
I do understand that the 30 rder was meant as an interim use ... to supplement the drum when the 3 drums is used up! However,! not issuing the drum makes the 30 rders the primary mag use in all training .
In my time in SAF .. we only get to see the drum during a 2NTM standby! and my SAW gunner is not familiar with the drum! as much as to use it in time of war with a system they are not familiar with ! Scarry thought!
The Beta is a good drum! don;t get me wrong ! but they are not as reliable as want it tobe! maybe there will be an improved version that give it a notch in the reliability factor.
Either way, you could use and carry the SAW in either a drum or belt with ease! no issue on a M249 with the plastic box that holds the belt!
Agreeable that the current SAW has to be mobile ... but a SAW with a nuted 30 rd mag would not give the squad a good support base type weapon when needed!
DaveC -
During my NS time in 1990s, we were using the 100-rounds drums for the Ultimax during exercises and live firing... Each SAW soldier would carry three drums...Originally posted by davechng:I do understand that the 30 rder was meant as an interim use ... to supplement the drum when the 3 drums is used up! However,! not issuing the drum makes the 30 rders the primary mag use in all training .
In my time in SAF .. we only get to see the drum during a 2NTM standby! and my SAW gunner is not familiar with the drum! as much as to use it in time of war with a system they are not familiar with ! Scarry thought!
The Beta is a good drum! don;t get me wrong ! but they are not as reliable as want it tobe! maybe there will be an improved version that give it a notch in the reliability factor.
Either way, you could use and carry the SAW in either a drum or belt with ease! no issue on a M249 with the plastic box that holds the belt!
Agreeable that the current SAW has to be mobile ... but a SAW with a nuted 30 rd mag would not give the squad a good support base type weapon when needed!
DaveC
Me would still choose Ultimax as my battlemate over M16, not because of the sustained fire suppression power but is the accuracy and reliability without IA throughout my two years... -
As I said, reload times isn't really an issue... except prehaps when you are chionging in FIBUA or doing really close in work, where reload times might matter more. I certainly don't want to be lifting belts and opening gun covers when I am in a room with the enemy possibly in the next.Originally posted by moca:So it is not really unacceptable. All under a minute at most.
Replacing a big fat 100-round drum will be faster but I really think the difference between drum and belt will be seconds, not minutes.
But with a 100-rounds of either drum or belt, you won't be reloading your weapon that often anyway.
On the other hand, having a 200 round belt means that you reload half as much as a 100 round drummer. And hey, less chance of the mag fouling on you. -
I think this is a good interim solution. Come up with an alternative to the 100-round drum. If a 50-round drum works, then it is already good enuf.Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:Ideal situation would be to re-look at the Ultimax magazine.
If the drum cannot be improved, start again.
Maybe develop a 50-rd box or drum that is more reliable than a 100-rd drum. This 50-rd box/drum must be able to be loaded by hand.
For me, I think this has another advantage in that it is not so heavy. A 1.9kg 100-round drum on the weapon may be tilt the balance forward way too much.
HAHAHA!Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:...better than the current Ultimax-30
-
Guys! don't tell me the Ultimax 100 is more accurate than a M16S1.... in pure pyhsics and design it is physically impossible unless the M16 is out of tune or really bad with no rifling on the barrel.
an Open bolt system machine gun will never match the accuracy of a 7 locking lugs M16 close bolt stoner gas system. In fact! in current assualt rifle out there, maybe the SIG550 can come close to the accuracy of the M16.
Saying the Ultimax 100 is more accurate than the M16 is like saying my Suzuki Swift will outrun a Ferrari!...Maybe just to be fair! is that the U100 handles very well in Full auto firing than the M16A1! yes that I agree!
DaveC -
Well it's precise enough some people have used the U100 as a sniper rifle...
But I think an M-16, given the same barrel and bipod could do the same or even better. -
Ultimax 100 is still one of the most reliable n light SAW around.........Belt fed SAW would allow reloads without reloading empty mags instead use pouch to carry the belts.......The rumour about the 100rds drum mag was that it causes the weapon to jam too often n difficult to reload........So r we able to redesign Ultimax 100 to be belt fed n just as reliable n light
Make mag for SAW like others have in 40/45/50 rds mag......Or design one like Stoner 63 weapon system............ -
Aye 1 v1 round it's not. But a grouping from auto fire it's much better.
-
Originally posted by davechng:Guys! don't tell me the Ultimax 100 is more accurate than a M16S1.... in pure pyhsics and design it is physically impossible unless the M16 is out of tune or really bad with no rifling on the barrel.
an Open bolt system machine gun will never match the accuracy of a 7 locking lugs M16 close bolt stoner gas system. In fact! in current assualt rifle out there, maybe the SIG550 can come close to the accuracy of the M16.
Saying the Ultimax 100 is more accurate than the M16 is like saying my Suzuki Swift will outrun a Ferrari!...Maybe just to be fair! is that the U100 handles very well in Full auto firing than the M16A1! yes that I agree!
DaveC
you trying to say that the M16 is still one of the most accurate military assault rifles? I thought our SAR21 would have surpassed it in terms of accuracy already, not to mention all the new rifles popping up -
I have to disagree with the accurate , SNiper U100! U100 is accurate for its purpose and design! but it is defeintly not more accurate than an M16... like UZI will never be more accurate than an MP5!
Accuracy in a rifle ,usually takes a lot to make it accurate ! MEia would probably agree with me on this.
And a Semi auto ,, will be even more difficult ! we have a lot of factor to make an accurate rifle, rigidity of barrel, action lockup, action type ... trigger actions , barrel type , free floating, tolerance and precision of the parts.not to mention ammunition... etc... and reemeber consistantcy is accuracy and all these have to be consistant!
Reason why I say it is harder to accurized a U100.. an open bolt system having the bolt slamming onto and firing it do not have ample lockup like a close bolt system... and you cannot fine tune the lockup such that after firing, the bolt will not open in the precise time to give mazimum pressure so the bullet and leave the barrel.... and with that in mind... the U100 is a bad candidate ! next thing is the gas system! having regulating type will take out the very consistancy of airflow and all that! thus the accuracy will not be as good.
it just like it takes a lot to accurazied say a Fn/FAL or L1A1 becasue of the gas system and the piston plus the lockup of the FAL! L1A1 uses variable gas system which is not precise enough to give consistant gas flow each time the rifle is fired! thus accuracy suffer ! not saying the FAL will not shoot... the FAL will consistantly do 2 MOA but makeing it 1moa or less like an accuraize AR would be difficult.. not impossible but a lot has to be done! Same thing with say an AK, Valmet or the Galil.... I can shoot maybe 2 MOA on the untune Galil ARM that I have ,,, but my AR15 will shoot 1 MOA or less consistantly... AK action's lockup, tolerance is not as good as the M16.. thus it is more difficult to get an accurized AK...
there are newer rifle out there like the G36, Tavor, SAR21 ... we have to examine each system to see how much accuracy the system can do! you will be surprise that a lot of the older system actually gives better accuracy!
U can take the U100 and use it as Sniper rifle! just like some people using FAL as a sniper rifle! but it will be using the wrong rifle for the wrong job where it is not design for...
We have come a long way and a lot has change in the sniper rifles and accurazation is concern! .... -
He's not kidding you, not to what I know anyway.Originally posted by chanjyj:
you trying to say that the M16 is still one of the most accurate military assault rifles? I thought our SAR21 would have surpassed it in terms of accuracy already, not to mention all the new rifles popping up
In the hands of a pro who knows how to shoot his stuff, the M16 is one of the most precise firearms ever, thanks to it's direct impingement system which simply has far less parts moving and shifting weight as you would get in a piston.
However this is also it's downside, for it makes it quite a bit less reliable then other kinds of actions.
In terms of overall performance for the grunt, the SAR21 is more accurate because of its 1.5x scope and egronomics. The disadvantage you get in using a piston system is more then made out for by removing the need to figure out the ghost sight picture that some of our guys simply cannot figure out. And of course this is subjective but I prefered the balance of the SAR to the M-16... I guess I like the weight of my weapon centralized.
Of course, this is not even assuming that you can stick a scope on the M-16.
In terms of MOA and group size in the hands of two equally skilled pros who know their stuff, you will probably get a better group with the '16 then the SAR. But of course this is raw, technical accuracy.
However if you take everything into account, including the increased number of conscripts who can finally hit something with the SAR (thanks to the scope), as well as the ability to fire the SAR one handed and in strange positions that you might encounter in FIBUA with improved accuracy (thanks to it's centralized weight distribution), the SAR-21 presents an overall increase in combat accuracy for the grunt.
Those two things are quite different, for example (though this is an extreme one), the rifles they use in sharpshooting contests are probably a lot more accurate then your military weapons, but you probably aren't going to chiong with those weapons or realize that that increase in accuracy really helps you out in your combat drills. You'll probably get more hits if you stuck with the military weapon.
That said, different guns for different needs.
But of course, the differences in technical MOA accuracy we are talking here (M-16 vs. SAR) are really marginal for all pratical purposes. You can still easily nail a first shot hit on a target at 300 meters with the SAR, and that's more or less more then what the average grunt needs. But factor everything in and the SAR is an easier and more forgiving gun to shoot in combat.
This is certainly no AK47 vs M-16 difference in accuracy we are talking here. -
No argument there dave, but what I am pointing out that for an open bolt LMG, the U100 has remarkable accuracy... so much so it has been converted ad hoc (if i remember correctly), to a sniper rifle.Originally posted by davechng:U can take the U100 and use it as Sniper rifle! just like some people using FAL as a sniper rifle! but it will be using the wrong rifle for the wrong job where it is not design for...
We have come a long way and a lot has change in the sniper rifles and accurazation is concern! ....
In the same way they have turned the M2HB into a sniper rifle before, and set world distance sniping records with it even though by all measures it was totally the wrong weapon for the job! -
agree with U SingaporeTyrannosaur,
for an open bolt system the U100 is quite accurate!
DAveC -
Yes! combat accuracy and handling is differnt from actual accuracy of the rifle ! you guys will be surprise that the AR is still one of the most tweak, accurate rifle or assualt rifle out there.
Not the SAR21, Tvr21, G36, L85A2, etc etc can touch!
So far.... maybe the HK33 and SIG-550 series can maybe match or come close to its accuracy!
I am an advit lover for AK or other type rifle but we are seeing AR hitting targets at 800 to 900 yds on CMP competition is phenominal! of course they are using those new 69 and 77 grain bullet!
DaveC -
Okok... M16 more accurate...
I never had time to go to the range, take out the SAR21 and the M16, and slowly shoot round by round for each weapon and compare the two of em.
My experience with both rifles are more of (I dunno what to call it) "Instinct" shooting. On range I just.. "knew" where to shoot, and the bullet hit anyway, nevermind whether it was the SAR21 or the M16. I always thought my marksmanship badge was due to the weapon (Although I got the badge when using both the SAR21 and the M16, my score was higher with the SAR21) -
Like these rifle I have up here,,,, my plain Jane M4 with the Elcan scope will stil outshoot any of these other rifles! ( AKS-74, piston M4, AUG, AKSU74 )
SAR21 may shoot better also becasue they have a better sight system... put an ELcan on the M16 !you will see the difference! I have not shoot the SAR21 but my AUG shooots well! but I hate the trigger of the AUG! AUG design the trigger to be long becasue it does not have a selector ! so! single shot is pull slightly and pull all the way on the trigger !you rock and roll!
CHeers!
DAveC
-
The M16 is one of the most accurate military rifles around.Originally posted by chanjyj:
you trying to say that the M16 is still one of the most accurate military assault rifles? I thought our SAR21 would have surpassed it in terms of accuracy already, not to mention all the new rifles popping up -
I clocked plenty of time on both weapons with live ammo, that said:Originally posted by davechng:Like these rifle I have up here,,,, my plain Jane M4 with the Elcan scope will stil outshoot any of these other rifles! ( AKS-74, piston M4, AUG, AKSU74 )
SAR21 may shoot better also becasue they have a better sight system... put an ELcan on the M16 !you will see the difference! I have not shoot the SAR21 but my AUG shooots well! but I hate the trigger of the AUG! AUG design the trigger to be long becasue it does not have a selector ! so! single shot is pull slightly and pull all the way on the trigger !you rock and roll!
If I was going into a shooting competition with military rifles and could stick anything on my weapon to help aim, the M-16 and co. would be the first weapon of choice.
But if you are talking chionging into combat, it's the SAR anytime.
At the end of the day this is what I feel about the two weapons:
The M-16 can create really small groups, but you might not be able to do this all the different shooting conditions and positions you might face in the field.
The SAR-21 does not give you such a tight group (relative to the M-16), but it's a more consistent shooter over different conditions.
I mean it would be great to be foxhole supported or prone and plinking at your targets... but this does not happen all the time. -
Originally posted by davechng:
Walao eh... don't make me jealous of your armoury[/b]
Which city in the US you live in? I thought there is a ban on fully automatic firearms now, only semi-auto firearms can be procured? -
in Great State of Texas .. DAllas!
There is restrictions on FUll auto weapons! but civillian can still register and buy machine gun if you register the machine gun, do a title transfer, FBI check and and a $200 tax stamp!
MOst people just buy semi auto stuff! the Fuill auto stuff was ban for importation and manufacture in 1986! so anythiung before is grandfathered and can be had!
Surpressor can still be bought! but register it as a Class 3 weapons just like the Full auto stuff!
DaveC -
agree with you SingaporeTyrannosaur
too bad I don;t get to try the SAR21 ! hearing from all these rave review , it must be a very good system!
if I have to shoot grouping competition and in a relatively clean enviroment ! I will use my regular M16 or M4... but if I have to go for combat! Iwill use my Piston M4 with Eotech or the AUG! but if I have to goto the sandbox ! my Galil, AKSU-74 or AKS74!
Cheers!
DaveC -
I don't know who actually tried to make the U100 a sniper rifle when there are so many better options out there. Most AR will outshoot the U in semi. It's probably one of those things you try after a few beers too many.
When you squeeze trigger on the U100 the first thing to happen is the heavy bolt carrier sliding forward. This will throw your aim off slightly. So if you are talking about pin point accuracy like that of the M16, you won't get it with the U.
The U100's reputation is being the most accurate LMG, due mainly to its constant recoil system that reduces recoil to negligible levels during Full Auto fire.