What's will happen to the Ultimax?
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The Ultimax-100 uses proprietary 100-round drums or a (modified) M-16 STANAG 30-round magazines.
(This modification involves the simple drilling of 2 holes near the lip.)
During the time when our standard weapon was the M-16, this was a perfect solution as the SAW gunner in theory could scrounge M-16 magazines when he's out of drums.
But with the introduction of the SAR-21, which uses a different proprietary magazine, what will happen to the Ultimax-100 system?
Will SAF continue to issue STANAG mags for the Ultimax?
Or will SAF finally start issuing the drums for training?
Will they come up with a modified Ultimax that accepts the SAR-21 mags?
Or will they replace the Ultimax-100?
Share your opinion. -
Just a sidenote. The FN Minimi is not without its problems.
I have read that it is not very reliable when it is using the mag-feed option. -
Wasn't one of the possible configurations of the SAR-21 a SAW? I'm not sure whether the SAF would go and replace it however. It's quite hard to move away from a tried and tested weapon.
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US military tested ultimax sometime after they got their FN...they found it to be better than FN (s'pore SAW gunners may disagree
) .....in fact some said its one of the best SAW.....so fitting SAR mag would be a good idea. -
I love the ultimax. It's the best out of all the section weapons i carried heh. Currently, it's still m16/m203 so there will still be mag/ammo passing. Worst come to worst...unload and reload lor.
However, come the future when we have a sar21/gl, i'm sure they will introduce a striped down sar21 saw and stick with the 30 round mag.
Hopefully, the SAr21 saw:
they will strip MOST of the plastic (lighter and quicker cooldown from rapid fire)
leave the kevlar on (safety)
change the trigger area (more auto friendly)
make it auto / 3 rd burst only
new material foldable bipod (please no more rust*beg*)
and fore arm(left) side grip able to switch between side and centre down.
Why i dont encourage 100 rd mag for reliable SAR21, cause you cannot pass ammo. -
I am not so keen on a SAW version of the SAR-21.
the SAW conversions converted from Rifle design does not seem to work IMHO.
Look at the RPK (from AK-47) and the LSW (from the British SA-80). both are not very good...
I would rather we design a dedicated SAW that uses SAR-21 mags. In the interim, keep the Ultimax. -
Drum mags are very difficult to load. It requires a machine for that. So, in normal training, the good old modified M16 mag will be used.
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huh!!! ultimax 100 = always jammed...
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Keep the SAW.
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keep the SAW MK 3..Originally posted by LazerLordz:Keep the SAW.
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keep the SAW it is one of the best support weapon a section can have.
And we have 2 of them. Maybe ST can have better anti-rust costing on them. other then that all good -
I love the SAW heh, but unless it can eat sar21 mag i think it's days are numbered...
I would hope they make the saw eat the sar21 mag its the best section weapon i have used! -
Yeah, the Ultimax is light, low recoil, accurate and cheap. Most of us who have used it loved it.
But IMO there is bound to be changes coming. I can't see how this situation with the magazine difference can persist. I'm surprised the M-16/M203 system is still in use. You would think that fitting a grenade launcher to the SAR-21 will be a picnic but there must be some reasons why this hasn't happened yet.
But a change to make the Ultimax take SAR-21 mags will be major. There is no way, I think, they can make modifications to make current Ultimax to take SAR-21 mags. They would have to majorly rebuild them or build new versions from scratch.
Would STK build a new version of the Ultimax jst to take SAR-21 mags?
Hard to say.
The Ultimax, vaunted as it is by many, has so far not seen a major sale.
Though SAF is the priority but I think STK is also constantly on the lookout for a weapon system that will make it a global name. So far it has been always close but no cigar.
So it is possible that STK may try and come up with a new SAW. I won't even be surprised that they will bend to global trends and make a belt-feed gun. -
i hate belt fed guns. Cant imagine skinny cheena boy chiong and "aaahhhhhhhhh" with a belt fun saw...probably cmi.
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Belt fed guns are more for emplacements with sand bags and all.Originally posted by CM06:i hate belt fed guns. Cant imagine skinny cheena boy chiong and "aaahhhhhhhhh" with a belt fun saw...probably cmi.
Doesn't someone else carry the box of ammunition? -
The problem with our SAW is that it's a 30rd mag. However, it's exactly it's 30 rd mag that makes it compact and light.
Best is hope it doesnt get replaced.
Other countries use belt fed weapons as a SAW. M249 ,rpk74 and fn mini. they are all ,in my opnion, not suitable. Clinking + 50 rd belt swinging ? no thanks.
They are beltfed cause mags larger than 30 rds starts to have problems - loading and reliability. Not to mention weight. Imagine you hang a 2+kg dumbbell on your m16...
For emplacements, you are talking about a GPMG. MGs are able to have longer and sustained fire, comes with changable barrels.
The only thing we are worried is the SAW will be taken away because SAR21 = end of m16 mags. Hopefully it wont happen.
For those who ask why is there a need for SAW - it's auto, it's accurate and it keeps enemies heads down. You cant do that with m16/sar21 at a section level. -
I agree but to play devil's advocate belt fed SAWs have neat canvas pouches or plastic boxes for the belts. As you can see from these examples of the M249 and IMI Negev, the mag/pouch is no more cumbersome than the Ultimax drums. In fact, after firing off the belt, you need only carry the empty canvas pouch or the plastic baox, which must be lighter than an empty Ultimax drum. In the case of the pouch, even more compact.
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I don't see the point of a SAw using 30 round magazines in the first place.
A SAW is meant to provide sustained fire, and if it has 30 round mags, then what's the diff between an M16 on auto mode and the ultimax on auto ? -
The Ultimax's is certainly much more easy to use on auto, as well as the barrel being able to last quite a bit longer.Originally posted by chanjyj:I don't see the point of a SAw using 30 round magazines in the first place.
A SAW is meant to provide sustained fire, and if it has 30 round mags, then what's the diff between an M16 on auto mode and the ultimax on auto ?
Anyway it's the dream of weapon designers to create a weapon that can be converted to be used in ALL the roles. Even the XM8 had a SAW variant, but it just seems like they haven't gotten it all to work that well.
If they got it to work that would be cool...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sar21-LMG.JPG
There's a SAR-21/M203 (well actually the GL isn't an M203, but you get the idea), as well as a SAR-21 DMR, and they always cart it out for the open houses and defence exibitions, and not just by ST mind you, but 9 Div Inf holding the shows... but for some reason the SAF seems to dragging its feet in really getting down to it.
Wait a minute... it looks like the SAR LMG uses a 30 ROUND MAG??!!!
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There are so many different specifications for a SAW that difers from army to army.
I don't know exactly how they are organized but....
The US have within the section M249, designated as a SAW, and M-16 & M-203.
The British seems to be undecided. They have the Minimi (M249) AND the L86 LSW, basically a souped up version of their L85 Assault Rifle. The L86 has a heavier (longer?) barrel and uses the STANAG mags. Though the L86 LSW is now kinda become the unofficial long range aimed fire weapon, with the Minimi taking up over the fire support role.
The British experiment with a souped-up assault rifle for the fire support/SAW role is a clear demonstration of the failure of this concept.
It is unlikely SAF will adopt the LSW version of the SAR-21. In the seventies SAF experimented with the M-16HB with bipod for the LSW role and found it unsuitable. In the end the answer was a dedicated SAW the Ultimax. So it is unlikely we will go back to a LSW concept based on the SAR-21.
The most interesting development in this area is the USMC's nre requirement for what they term as a IAR - Infantry Automatic Rifle. They were evaluating the Ultimax for this though I don't know the outcome.
This is interesting because this is taking place more than a decade after they have adopted the M249 as a SAW. Perhaps they are now finally realizing that that the M249 really no more than a GPMG firing 5.56mm. A S.A.W. IT IS NOT. -
Originally posted by moca:
The M249 got chosen.. because of.. ahem. Politics
The most interesting development in this area is the USMC's nre requirement for what they term as a IAR - Infantry Automatic Rifle. They were evaluating the Ultimax for this though I don't know the outcome.
This is interesting because this is taking place more than a decade after they have adopted the M249 as a SAW. Perhaps they are now finally realizing that that the M249 really no more than a GPMG firing 5.56mm. A S.A.W. IT IS NOT.
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Blast from the past..
The real SAWs from WW2 or earlier:
However, nearly all the examples here weigh 8kg and above - empty.
Even the L86 LSW, M249, IMI Negev weighs around or above 7kg empty.
The Ultimax weighs 4.9 kg empty, 6.8 kg with loaded 100 rds mag. Whew!!! That's why I love the Ultimax. -
No, that's why I said it is interesting. This evaluation I am talking about is happening recently.Originally posted by chanjyj:The M249 got chosen.. because of.. ahem. Politics
A RE-EVALUATION if you prefer... -
Our Ultimax was not meant to use only 30-round mags.Originally posted by chanjyj:I don't see the point of a SAw using 30 round magazines in the first place.
A SAW is meant to provide sustained fire, and if it has 30 round mags, then what's the diff between an M16 on auto mode and the ultimax on auto ?
The ability to use 30-round mag as an OPTION was what made the Ultimax fit perfectly into our logistic system.
Still, a SAW that uses 30 round mag is far from useless.
In the case of the Ultimax, it provides accurate automatic fire using 30 or 100-round mags. This fire support is something that neither the M-16, SAR-21 or any other assault rifle in current inventories are capable of. -
Me like firing Ultimax as a SAW during exercises...
Still remembered its lightweightness and ability to sustain accuracy during continuous firing, and of course the low recoil that me even tried to fire with the butt resting on my nose tip...
If me were given a choice to choose, me would still choose Ultimax as my ultimate SAW...
