Singapore 6 Day War?
-
Technically, if they gotten hold of some of the DU Russian APFSDS rounds, those theoretically could penetrate the Leopard 2A4 and perhaps the latter models as well.
However, I'm not sure how they would even leapfrog our Centurions, which though use only the 105mm cannon, could be equiped with Israeli reactive armor and given a new engine and what not and if given the correct 105mm ammunition, they could perform close to some 120mm rounds too. -
Our objectives will be limited. I don't think it involves the capture and occupation of KL - 325km away. Even if this means we are fighting with one hand tied.I was thinking of a senario if SAF push to the north. And TNI para drop into JB to cut off supply on our forces into KL and at the same time make a push into Singapore from the south....
The policy of "Forward Defense" is to create a buffer and secure water supplies. And maybe also to create an exclusion zone so that their tube arty cannot hit us.
Another reason is political and long term: Singapore cannot move to another location. We cannot create a blood fued that lasts many generations. So even though we go into Johore, the aim would be a negotiated settlement and not complete humiliation of a neighbour, assuming that we could.*
* Reference Israel's Six-Day War. Egypt was completely and absolutely humiliated. Not to mention nearly wiped out. What happened? They plotted revenge culminating in the Yom Kippur War where Egypt then took Israel by complete surprise.
Egypt military in YKW performed extremely well and it regained "face" in the eyes of its arab neighbours. This allowed the Egyptians to make peace with Israel that lasts till today after many changes of leaders.
For the same reasons, Israel did not march into Cairo in any war, though it could. -
The trouble for us that unlike the Israelis, they have plenty of room for their armour to move. We have none. It's hard to compare their strategic situation to ours as the only thing separating us from any potential enemy is a body of water.
In fact, I am of the opinion that we ought to look into our airlift abilities or strategic placement capabilities so that we can place a division or two elsewhere. This way we can achieve some degree of strategic surprise and bypass enemy hardpoints, i.e. their major cities and instead head for more important strategic objectives, i.e. KL. Catching the enemy by surprise will allow us to catch their political leadership by surprise and allow us to force them to sue for peace.
However, with MBTs and what not, this will prove difficult. Unless our Guards brigades are well trained and equipped to handle enemy armour and to move quickly and swiftly. Of course for this idea to work, sea superiority is necessary. -
that a military weapon research guys work over new apfsds projectile. next one. this one would have additional charge around the sabot. The apfsds amunition for t-72 is split in two parts, penetrator with sabot and propellant charge. and that's why the length of the penetrator seems to be limited (some say however that loader would accept longer penetrators anyway) and also the amount of propellant is limited. Malaysia bought new APFSDS and now they working on this next - this time the propellant will be in two parts of the amunition - in normal charge and additively around the sabot. So it could achieve biggest speed and biggest penetration.
i take this from a polish forum. So i say it can penetrate the Leo armour -
Like in all cases, we don't really know the kind of ammo the MAF is using... so we can only speculate.
Of course, it all depends on the kind of ammo they are getting as well... if they are simply buying the latest monkey model (that is, stripped down export version) russian penetrators... then they can forget about penetrating the Leo2's armour no matter how recent and updated their ammo is.
However we don't really know what ammo they are using, so we can only speculate. I suspect they'll rather be having something that can penetrate the Leo2, given they know that we are getting them.
There's plenty of room on the other side of the causeway for our stuff to move around.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:The trouble for us that unlike the Israelis, they have plenty of room for their armour to move. We have none. It's hard to compare their strategic situation to ours as the only thing separating us from any potential enemy is a body of water.
In fact, I am of the opinion that we ought to look into our airlift abilities or strategic placement capabilities so that we can place a division or two elsewhere. This way we can achieve some degree of strategic surprise and bypass enemy hardpoints, i.e. their major cities and instead head for more important strategic objectives, i.e. KL. Catching the enemy by surprise will allow us to catch their political leadership by surprise and allow us to force them to sue for peace.
However, with MBTs and what not, this will prove difficult. Unless our Guards brigades are well trained and equipped to handle enemy armour and to move quickly and swiftly. Of course for this idea to work, sea superiority is necessary.
Are you sure this capture KL idea is going to work? What is to stop the MAF, which has sufficent forces, from cutting off our forward forces and destroying them? In the end to sustain a "capture KL" effort one needs to have a viable supply line and the forces to do it.
The whole capture KL and avoid all else idea sounds of the Japanese plan for the Battle of Midway, it only works if you have absolute surprise and have correctly accounted for the enemy ability to respond in force and number... things which the Japanese all failed to do. If we fail to achive total surprise you will end up fighting a bogged down battle with very long and fragile supply lines. Risky.
I don't think we have that capability yet, even the yanks came very close to not pulling off their Thunder Runs in Bagdad.
More likely the only major sealift we are going to try is to ferry our units across the straits as quickly as possible and start working up from there... it is a far less risky operation then trying to bypass enemy forces all the way up to KL. -
So, any plans for Aceh? Let's say that becomes a hypothetical front.
-
We could do all that simultaneously. Hit Johor while moving off along the coast. But that said, the sealift capability needed is quite enormous. I don't think we can do it yet but we desperately need to expand the theatre of battle and not let Johor be the only target that we hit and allow the enemy to bog us down. At the same time, our airforce will do strategic bombing of enemy targets in the vicinity of the bases near our attack points. It's going to be difficult and risky though.
Here's a website with some interesting bits of Russian tanks and ammunition. http://www.russianarmor.info/ But that said, the Poles probably cannot match German or even Russian engineering. The Twardy they have, I'm not sure how much it corresponds to the Russian equivalent. -
I was thinking a more limited strategic flank is possible, like open up a seond front slightly up the MAF defences to fight so they have to thin out their troops, but in such a way that it is easily supported by your main front.
But of course, there are many ways of attack during a war, and ways to defend from them as well.
I'm all for working on developing out network centric warfare abilities aka 3G, for being able to think faster and make better decisions is an asset that is vital if you are not fighting static wars. Not to mention its something that we can maintain a significant edge in the region for some time to come before the rest start to pick up on it.
Indonesia isn't going to come up with one anytime soon, and the MAF has no such program (officially anyway) in place and by all indications their armies and commanders still seem to be trapped in the old thinking of warfighting.
So if you can't outfight, outwit. -
Pretty much yeah. In fact, I would rather eliminate their field armies before staging a siege. Sieges have an uncanny way of turning into hammers and anvils, not for us. Gaining the strategic initiative and eliminating their field armies in small but numerous armoured thrusts before coalesce into a single thrust for the capital.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I was thinking a more limited strategic flank is possible, like open up a seond front slightly up the MAF defences to fight so they have to thin out their troops, but in such a way that it is easily supported by your main front.
But of course, there are many ways of attack during a war, and ways to defend from them as well.
I'm all for working on developing out network centric warfare abilities aka 3G, for being able to think faster and make better decisions is an asset that is vital if you are not fighting static wars. Not to mention its something that we can maintain a significant edge in the region for some time to come before the rest start to pick up on it.
Indonesia isn't going to come up with one anytime soon, and the MAF has no such program (officially anyway) in place and by all indications their armies and commanders still seem to be trapped in the old thinking of warfighting.
So if you can't outfight, outwit.
Combined arms! Helicopters and self-propelled artillery as support!
I wonder if we should look into heavy weapons designed to deal with heavy fortifications though. -
Hmm, well, we could use the old German method of Biltzreikg.
-
Did i hear someone say RSAF Strategic bombing???
-
Gotta put those RSAF B52Ds to work somehow, ya know!Originally posted by Shotgun:Did i hear someone say RSAF Strategic bombing??? 
-
We didn't get F-16C/Ds with the Lantirn and F-15E just for air superiority. Moreover, the F-15Es were used extensively in recent Iraqi war to drop precision ammunition.Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:Gotta put those RSAF B52Ds to work somehow, ya know! -
The shift in orbat is seen most evidently in the roles of the new equipment, mainly dealing with long-range, sustained loiter time and deep strike in all-weather conditions.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:We didn't get F-16C/Ds with the Lantirn and F-15E just for air superiority. Moreover, the F-15Es were used extensively in recent Iraqi war to drop precision ammunition.
One should note the extended, refuelable range of our Viper 52+ and the Eagles.
It's more than just within this region.
Throw in a mix of our AWAC air cover and patrol range of the FFGs. -
if aceh rebel decide to go against the truce and decided succession is what they want. Indo ask Singapore to help to quarl the rebellion. ......i don't think that would happen.Originally posted by LazerLordz:So, any plans for Aceh? Let's say that becomes a hypothetical front.
but i would like to present another possibilities that make LHL nervous that he had to make the trip before he became PM. It is ROC and Singapore commitment. but would like to discuss this in a different topics. -
knnccb, here the forum rule forbid talking abt wars with neighbouring countries, with places and names of countries openly named, the thread didn't get close and go on and on, my earlier thread abt the status of having PR NS man in situation of wars, with countries not named, got deleted cnmd!
-
What can SAF do that TNI cannot do, in a counter Insurgency role?Originally posted by Arapahoe:if aceh rebel decide to go against the truce and decided succession is what they want. Indo ask Singapore to help to quarl the rebellion. ......i don't think that would happen.
What committment to ROC does SG have?Originally posted by Arapahoe:but i would like to present another possibilities that make LHL nervous that he had to make the trip before he became PM. It is ROC and Singapore commitment. but would like to discuss this in a different topics.
None, I think. -
Well, maybe we can use their land as training grounds?
-
Dig out "Defending the Lion City". Read.
-
haha, if we can read it, so can our enemy.
-
not in terms of TNI vs SAF or rebel group. but politically i can't see Sing gov supporting any group?Originally posted by moca:What committment to ROC does SG have?
None, I think. -
Well, all I can say is that all that is written here is open domain, and I think we've done our best to be sensitive to the Malaysians by portraying them in a fair light in our discussions.
To be fair, such war gaming speculations are not uncommon in any nation, and indeed the original war gaming opponent in the speculations of the Yanks were the Brits, even if they were allies at that time.
It boils down to some morbid friendly rivalry I think, the MAF is more likely to be an ally to the SAF then an enemyÂ… for now at least.
On the other hand, we do have Iron Malaysian, who by all extrapolations probably expects the MAF to be able to best the US Military of perhaps some technologically advanced alien invader.
His comments on how easily the MAF can pwn anything, as if his potential enemies are blundering fools who have absolutely no idea how to fight a war and use their equipment are quite funny, and the weight of his conviction in his beliefs is even funnier. He actually believes his words:
From the MAF pwns all forum:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42237&st=180Its quality that counts.; not quantity. Swedish submarines are extremely noisy. They are no much for superior French technology. Despite being outnumbered, our Agosta and Scorpenes will have no problem detecting and destroying their inferior subs.
Having MAF generals as" confident" with their "war plans" as him is probably something every opponent of Malaysian would wish for in a war.
Even their heavily armed frigates are not safe from our Kh-31s and torpedos. What hope is there for transport ships ?
Assuming that in the early phase of the war, all Malaysian fighters were busy fighting the enemy air force and the Singaporean navy managed to land some soldiers in Malaysia, this attack will still fail because:
1) Malaysian air superiority will deny them air support.
2) Due to limited carrying capacity, they will only be able to transport one or two thousand soldiers.
One infantry division is all it takes to keep them from advancing beyond their landing area.
They will only get pinned down on the beachhead, mercilessly pounded by our artillery.
In the meantime, we will still press ahead with our invasion of Singapore and then Thailand. -
lol this iron malaysia were really creative in describing MAF..... anyway i think most singaporean were like that also when in foreign forum. It quite embarassing to read. Just read below.....
http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2389498&posted=1#post2389498 -
Wah lau, xia suay us.
Actually should just gather all these kind of people from both sides and make them argue in a forum, should be rather entertaining... -
I really enjoy visting that asiafinest website... everytime I'm not happy.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Wah lau, xia suay us.
Actually should just gather all these kind of people from both sides and make them argue in a forum, should be rather entertaining...
the problem is that it has amajor side effect on me
Makes me roll on the floor and laugh in the middle of the night, waking up all my neigbours
Can anyone recommend me more of these funny websites?
(btw, it's Iron Malayan, not Iron Malaysian )