Singapore 6 Day War?

• acwire_2125

  11 Apr 07, 21:47

  WEll, forward defence as in Pre-emptive strike?
• Chemineer72

  11 Apr 07, 22:11

  I would think that as a country without any strategic depth and reliance on external trade and supply to survive, any conflict of Singapore with her neighbors has to be ended quickly and decisively.
  
  Strategy wise, I would think occupying a large stretch of land as buffer zone would provide confidence and morale to the local population, at least for the short term (in terms of a few weeks the most). After which, the target will be to strike at the heart or head of the enemy to force a total collapse of armed forces or political organization that actually was hostile.
  
  Swift and decisive. Who dares wins.
• Arapahoe

  11 Apr 07, 23:30

  Originally posted by tankfanatic:

  which forum?

  asia defence forum
• Arapahoe

  11 Apr 07, 23:46

  Originally posted by tankfanatic:

  and how is that?

  I think it was 96 or 97 we had one of our largerest mobile colum display on Padan that year. TNI parachute into JB it was a joint excerise with malaysian. I remember clearly because the next day my friends told me "guess what he got a call on national day morning. It was a surprise Recall on national day morning.
  
  This type of excerise are political statement especially on national day.
  
• Fingolfin_Noldor

  12 Apr 07, 04:33

  Originally posted by Arapahoe:

  I think it was 96 or 97 we had one of our largerest mobile colum display on Padan that year. TNI parachute into JB it was a joint excerise with malaysian. I remember clearly because the next day my friends told me "guess what he got a call on national day morning. It was a surprise Recall on national day morning.
  
  This type of excerise are political statement especially on national day.
  

  They will probably do the same thing when we parade our Leopard 2 in full glory.
  
  Between T-72s and Leopard 2s, I would place my bets on the latter. The Soviets aren't known to have given their satellite states the best hardware available, keeping the good stuff for themselves. If the M'sians went for the T-84, then we should start worrying.
• ferryman2393

  12 Apr 07, 08:03

  
  

  This type of excerise are political statement especially on national day.
  

  you have to view that incident within the regional political and economic condition then.
  
  by the time those paras had lunch, the SAF was still busy with the roll calls...
  
  
• CM06

  12 Apr 07, 08:13

  hahaha. No. Our commandos already have their lunch when their's are still lining up. Our vehicles ready to move already lor. One more thing, they Para in "northern Jb" not southern jb...they will still have to walk a "few" kilos to even smell our senoko PP. tell me para troop vs A vehicle who win....dont play us down. We -are- vigilant..but everyone must do their part.
• acwire_2125

  12 Apr 07, 08:59

  Well, We could do the same, Parachute our Commandos into Northen Johor. All Guards on stand-by. Primus all move to our northen border and infantry prepare to launch from Tekong and Ubin.
• touchstone_2000

  12 Apr 07, 09:07

  A lot of posts on small unit military strategy. I think only 1 forumer thinking about it at the level of Defence Minister or Chief of GS level.
  
  Sad so much tunnel vision.
• Chemineer72

  12 Apr 07, 09:23

  In the past (or is it still the same?), the Singapore concept of defence is that of a poison shrimp. It is small but can cause a real stomachache if consume. I would think that now officially acknowledged as being in a first world status and having developed so far, it should have a different kind of mentality.
  
  I would think that a cobra analogy might be better - silent but deadly. It is the same as the deterrent concept - do not step on my tail or strangle my neck because the end result will be deadly, deadly for the enemy but not necessarily so for the cobra.
  
  A cobra does not hesitate to take the 1st striking move when threaten. The attack will be of course, swift and decisive. It dares.
• CM06

  12 Apr 07, 09:23

  eh...No it's still a posion shrimp cause we -are- still small.
  
  Dont forget that we will never be at 100% manpower no matter what you think.
  
  Thank our "watchers" for their 24/7/365 vigilant watch. Personal responsibiilty, HP on 24/7/365 if you are in-country unless *cough*busy with some actions.
  
  Reply touchstone_2000,
  
  not everyone here get to see up-level stuff. Hah. People who see such stuff wont be spewing anything here anyway.
• moca

  12 Apr 07, 11:35

  Originally posted by Arapahoe:

  I think it was 96 or 97 we had one of our largerest mobile colum display on Padan that year. TNI parachute into JB it was a joint excerise with malaysian.
  This type of excerise are political statement especially on national day.
  

  It also happened once during the eighties. That time only MAF was involved. They conducted some wargames during our National Day and some units of SAF were mobilized in response.
  
  We can all forget any thought of Indonesia staying neutral.
  
  But I'm sure SAF is prepared/preparing to fight a multi-front battle. Otherwise we won't need so many aircrafts and ships just to fight the MAF.
  
  Their silly little paradrop - which they probably took months to plan - cannot compare to SAF's ability to instantly react massively to a unforseen disaster the scale of the Tsunami in Aceh.
  
  At Aceh, we showed everyone who wasn't blind or deaf who's the REAL boss here in these parts.
• moca

  12 Apr 07, 12:00

  Here's another possible scenario:
  
  Our airforce the first tool of power projection and they will try all means at their disposal to achieve maximum downtime to this capability.
  
  They will resort to stealth before conventional warfare. They will first land commandos by sea to destroy and sabotage radar and airbases.
  
  Only after the commados have had their go would they then start the arty bombadment, long range MLRS attack and other conventional means to further damage our ability to response and cause chaos.
  
  In fact, some of these commandos may even be "sleeper cells" implanted much earlier for general intel gathering activities that can be activated during wartime.
• ferryman2393

  12 Apr 07, 12:47

  
  

  One more thing, they Para in "northern Jb" not southern jb...they will still have to walk a "few" kilos to even smell our senoko

  if, and it was a big IF, it was for real, those paras' will land right on top of strategic places IN SG territory (instead of landing among pineapple patches in johor).
  
  and by virtue of 'military exercise', you can bet your senoko that there'll be significant land forces well mobilised before hand on the ground as well.
  
  its all a matter of who takes the first initiative.
  
  in future, bearing in mind of that future's regional political and economic context, what would SAF do when confronted with another big scale 'military exercise' on one of SG's public holiday? launch another roll call? everytime?
  
  just imagine the cost and inconvenience involved.
  
  or would the SAF just 'snapped' and started zapping those paras from the air in JB?
  
  
• ferryman2393

  12 Apr 07, 12:53

  
  

  At Aceh, we showed everyone who wasn't blind or deaf who's the REAL boss here in these parts.

  yeah. like assaulting the tsunami stricken beaches with the LSD. wonder how the TNI thought of that.
  
  
• LazerLordz

  12 Apr 07, 13:01

  Originally posted by ferryman2393:

  yeah. like assaulting the tsunami stricken beaches with the LSD. wonder how the TNI thought of that.
  
  

  It was a masterstroke. Not to mention setting up the HADR group.
  
  It showed our LST could be transformed into LHDs and LPDs,the sight of the Chinooks deploying from it showed their versatility. Remember that RSN turned down a larger LPD design from ST Marine.
  
  We could have built something much larger if we wanted to. I think the RSN is slowly acheiving a naval aviation skillset.
• LazerLordz

  12 Apr 07, 13:03

  Originally posted by Arapahoe:

  I think it was 96 or 97 we had one of our largerest mobile colum display on Padan that year. TNI parachute into JB it was a joint excerise with malaysian. I remember clearly because the next day my friends told me "guess what he got a call on national day morning. It was a surprise Recall on national day morning.
  
  This type of excerise are political statement especially on national day.
  

  True.
  
  One does not need actual intimidation to send a message.
  
  Aceh was a good way to showcase speed, efficiency and joint operational capability of our guys. Not to mention humanitarian ops always have an effect on the local population.
• moca

  12 Apr 07, 13:05

  Originally posted by ferryman2393:

  if, and it was a big IF, it was for real, those paras' will land right on top of strategic places IN SG territory (instead of landing among pineapple patches in johor).
  
  

  They cannot airdrop over our airspace. They will be shot down. They will lose the element of surprise which defeats the purpose anyway. And they do not have the capability for a real MASSIVE invasion scale airdrop.
  
  No one in this region has that capability and for that matter neither do we.
  
  With our handful of C-130, we can maybe drop one battalion MAX.
• CM06

  12 Apr 07, 13:26

  personally i find air drops a big sign : " Hey look over here ---> I'm coming down...come find and fight me"
  
  Heli ops are so much more tactical. Heh.
  
  In addition, no, the only reason why they can air drop because their plane swing like a hook away from us to JB. Otherwise...tsk tsk... you think our radar blind is it?
  
  If the CG can catch illegals in Sampan... nevermind
• Arapahoe

  13 Apr 07, 00:03

  Originally posted by Chemineer72:

  In the past (or is it still the same?), the Singapore concept of defence is that of a poison shrimp. It is small but can cause a real stomachache if consume. I would think that now officially acknowledged as being in a first world status and having developed so far, it should have a different kind of mentality.
  
  I would think that a cobra analogy might be better - silent but deadly. It is the same as the deterrent concept - do not step on my tail or strangle my neck because the end result will be deadly, deadly for the enemy but not necessarily so for the cobra.
  
  A cobra does not hesitate to take the 1st striking move when threaten. The attack will be of course, swift and decisive. It dares.

  I think the best defence is for any political government who initiate the attack will be political sucide as such they will also think twice about having such thought.
  
  As for the para drop, I was thinking of a senario if SAF push to the north. And TNI para drop into JB to cut off supply on our forces into KL and at the same time make a push into Singapore from the south. SAF would be having triple front.
  
  So i thought about securing southern island prior to moving northward. TNI does not have enough equipment to ferry asset across it needs stagging island.
  
  what are your thoughts?
  
  
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  13 Apr 07, 00:53

  The question is if the Indons have sufficent resources to mount a feasible air drop behind enemy lines that can be of strategic consideration. Given their current troop lift capacity, I am not sure it is possible.
  
  Remember they have to get past the RSAF as well, which is a very big question in itself. And even if they land they will basically be cut off, and be forced to fight infantry-level with no support whatsoever. Unless the SAF was really foolish enough to devote ALL of its resources pushing up north, any attempt to open up a third front by dropping behind the SAFÂ’s lines will probably end in disaster for them.
  
  Unless of course, they are willing to sacrifice their troops simply to tie down the SAF, but I think of all their options this is not the best.
  
  A more feasible option would be for them to deploy via airlift and sealift to join MAF forces on the other side of the front.
  
• chanjyj

  13 Apr 07, 04:39

  http://danlim.blogspot.com/2006/04/singaporeans-are-here-run-run-run.html
  
  finally I see a humorous side to this
• Fingolfin_Noldor

  13 Apr 07, 04:47

  Does anyone know what sort of ammunition the M'sians got for their tanks? I have been reading things like Saddamn's army had things like steel rods for APFSDS ammunition, and given that the Russians in the past retained their best tech for themselves, and still do an extent today, what did the Poles sell the M'sias? Some weak tungsten round?
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  13 Apr 07, 05:20

  For some reason Saddam's tankers used inexpensive stainless steel training sabots that were completely ineffective against the M1A1s in the Gulf War. But of course they might have thrown some real stuff downrange as well, but not that it would have helped anyway.
  
  It is a moot point given even if they were using the proper APFSDS ammo, the 3VBM8/3BM17/18, they stood no chance of penetrating the frontal arc of the Abrams within a 60 degree arc at any range, though the Yanks had this policy of standing back beyond 500 meters just to be safe and use their superior gunnery to finish the Iraqi tanks off.
  
  But of course, there's no reason to think (and indeed it would be an error to do so) that the Malaysian PT-91s are anything like Saddam's 10-camels a tank monkey model T-72s... they probably got their tanks along with some proper APFSDS ammo to shoot with.
  
  On paper at least, our Leo2A4s should be invulnerable to export 125mm smoothbore ammo ala. 3VBM8/3BM17/18 given they donÂ’t do very well against modern protection packages.
  
  But if the MAF had gotten hold of 3VBM19/3BM42M(3BM44M) standard kind of ammo there might be a possibility of penetration, and certainly so if they used the very latest kind of Russian penetrators that can supposedly penetrate over 800mm RHA. So right now its all speculation.
  
  On the other hand, our L44 should be able punch through their Twardies even if we used the old APFSDS ammo no matter what armour package they pack, unless of course they have somehow gotten hold of Kontakt-5 style ERA that can defeat APFSDS rounds. And of course if we were using the very latest 120mm APFSDS rounds it is quite possible there is nothing the Twardie does that will avoid penetration.
  
  Of course there are other things to consider as well beyond guns, armour and ammo... your fire control system, ability to lay your gun on target, as well as damage control abilities go a long way into determining a tank battle. No matter how you redesign the T-72, the issue of it going up like a firework even after minor penetration that is survivable in other MBTs is going to be an issue MAF tankers have to face.
  
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  13 Apr 07, 05:26

  Of course, if the Malaysians are using the Erawa reactive armour that ships with the Twardie, then the L44 APFSDS will have no issues with it. They just have to avoid getting shot.
  
  In any case it's not really a fair match to try to draw both tanks beside each other, given they are from different generations. The Leo2A4 is unquestionably the superior MBT as even the Poles have said so themselves.
  
  In the end it boils down to the user.
  
  I suspected that the MAF got the Twardies as an answer to our *ahem* MBTs... then we simply upgraded our MBTs to leapfrog their capabilities.