BUTT face to the pride of malaysia PT-91M?
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Not that the PT-91 is totally invulnerable to a LAW like the MATADOR, I mean even the M1 tank can be knocked out by a million-dollar lucky RPG 7 hit to its flank that somehow managed to not only penetrate but also disable crucial systems.
That's why I said you must be a bit of a brain surgeon with the MATADOR in order to cause some damage to the PT-91. If you can reliably make the shot to the vulnerable areas at range under combat conditions then you are really something.
If not most of the time it's fire and hope the round ends up somewhere vital. -
Anyway here's what some other dudes from other nations think of us getting Leo2s... with an interesting Aussie prespective to boot:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/land-forces/32219-singapore-acquire-leopard-2a4s.html
And some locals who prehaps to not have all their facts straight:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/land-forces/32219-singapore-acquire-leopard-2a4s.html -
interesting read dudeOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Anyway here's what some other dudes from other nations think of us getting Leo2s... with an interesting Aussie prespective to boot:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/land-forces/32219-singapore-acquire-leopard-2a4s.html
And some locals who prehaps to not have all their facts straight:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/land-forces/32219-singapore-acquire-leopard-2a4s.html
xie xie !
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slam the first matador onto the ERA... then after the ERA is gone.. slam the second matador into the exposed part.
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Wah you so pro ah?Originally posted by tripwire:slam the first matador onto the ERA... then after the ERA is gone.. slam the second matador into the exposed part.
Must be quite painfully close to do that trick... and even then it's no easy feat... not to mention you must shoot on an area where the MATADOR can defeat... no point splattering your shot on an exposed area of frontal armour cos it still can tank the damage.
Mobility kills I say! But that one also must be quite pro to do. -
slam the first matador onto the ERA... then after the ERA is gone.. slam the second matador into the exposed part
so acurate wah.... you can actually aim at the same spot using matador? not even spike can do that? somemore its coax is spitting bullet at you, you can still aim? -
We aren't some very garang religious fanatics you know.Originally posted by tripwire:slam the first matador onto the ERA... then after the ERA is gone.. slam the second matador into the exposed part.
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1) they no coaxial wont be "spitting bullets" they is one hit HEAT us haha.
2) It's a standard tactic. Why one section got two law gunners?
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Heng sway lor. Shoot liaoz Zhao... -
Actually hor, the doctrine is to use two LAW gunners to engage the tank at the same time at the moment of ambush.... not plink it twice.
Usually you will not approach MBTs under fire... they'll probably have some kind of support... and there's always the commander's mg. -
2) It's a standard tactic. Why one section got two law gunners?
there were various reason for this and its different from one nation to another. -
Well I -know- what we do with ours!
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well... every platoon got 6 matador mah.. got six chances.. given the size of the tank.. and the area of impact... pray pray lah...Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Wah you so pro ah?
Must be quite painfully close to do that trick... and even then it's no easy feat... not to mention you must shoot on an area where the MATADOR can defeat... no point splattering your shot on an exposed area of frontal armour cos it still can tank the damage.
Mobility kills I say! But that one also must be quite pro to do. what choice you got left? use M203 on the tank meh? 
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coax? dont every section got one SS?Originally posted by tankfanatic:so acurate wah.... you can actually aim at the same spot using matador? not even spike can do that? somemore its coax is spitting bullet at you, you can still aim? just asking... since there matador operator wont be fighting alone mah... 
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of course lah....Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:We aren't some very garang religious fanatics you know.
but when you are up against the tank.... you think your leg can out run the tank charging down at you?
at least lighten your weight first... slam all your matador off, either at the tank or their supporting infantry.. then call BN HQ... hopefully the ATGW section with SPIKE from SP coy is nearby your position.
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can climb up the tree like ah meng or shoot from the top of some building at the top or rear part of the tank?Originally posted by CM06:1) they no coaxial wont be "spitting bullets" they is one hit HEAT us haha.
2) It's a standard tactic. Why one section got two law gunners?
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Heng sway lor. Shoot liaoz Zhao...
i got the idea from matrix:revolution... -
I'm under the impression that an entire battalion works in close cohesion ready to support each other.Originally posted by tripwire:of course lah....
but when you are up against the tank.... you think your leg can out run the tank charging down at you?
at least lighten your weight first... slam all your matador off, either at the tank or their supporting infantry.. then call BN HQ... hopefully the ATGW section with SPIKE from SP coy is nearby your position.
Unless I am wrong about our doctrine, especially when I was never posted to an active unit. -
Battalion takes up a front ...the larger the group the larger the front they occupy. Obviously smaller groups (plts scts) come face to face with enemies first and the support will then react. For example like this
| . . = ^ . . + ^ | { s p a c e } | . . = . . + ^ | {s p a c e } | . . = . . + ^ |
Section ----------------------------------Section --------------------------Section
<------------------------------------Platoon-------------------------------------------->
Now imagine you do that up to Bn level. How big is the whole line. Hence why i said a section will likely face the Tank first and must know where to shoot.
If they retreat, the front will start to collapse and the enemy can punch through and wreck havoc.... -
look at this 2 pics, the first pic has taken from the first appearance during the MP and after goes for some trial, some changes have been made. I guess it's not a snorkel, does it looks like atgm?.......... maybe this is some of the their variant. -
No lah. It's a Curved Pipe and you see a stick connected to the end..
Cannot be a atgm lah. The most i put it is a Laser receiver/range finder or some other type of sensor.
I dont see any other difference...but i'm a bit tired...mind telling me? Dont forget the grey is the dust they wash it it will look better. -
Why would a front collapse? If the company is agile enough, they should fall back a little and then the rear lines will provide cover fire and the correct weapons bring to fore. No sense facing something they are not equipped to do so and then when you have dead men you really have a collapsed line.Originally posted by CM06:Battalion takes up a front ...the larger the group the larger the front they occupy. Obviously smaller groups (plts scts) come face to face with enemies first and the support will then react. For example like this
| . . = ^ . . + ^ | { s p a c e } | . . = . . + ^ | {s p a c e } | . . = . . + ^ |
Section ----------------------------------Section --------------------------Section
<------------------------------------Platoon-------------------------------------------->
Now imagine you do that up to Bn level. How big is the whole line. Hence why i said a section will likely face the Tank first and must know where to shoot.
If they retreat, the front will start to collapse and the enemy can punch through and wreck havoc.... -
Well nevermind. This sort of thing is all theorectical.I wont go further. heh.
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What kind of ERA do they use? From the looks of it, it isn't even the Polish derived ones, or even the latest Russian ones. Surely they at least invested in good ERA?Originally posted by MyVi:
look at this 2 pics, the first pic has taken from the first appearance during the MP and after goes for some trial, some changes have been made. I guess it's not a snorkel, does it looks like atgm?.......... maybe this is some of the their variant. -
First thing first, we need to look at the PT-91M before we could go ahead with any reasonable estimation.
It is based on T-72M1, the export or monkey model of the Russian variant, estimated armour protection is 420mm RHA against KE and 480mm RHA against CE and according some estimate PT-91M with ERAWA 2 will have 640 – 670 mm RHA against KE and something like 1300mm RHA against CE.
But I sincerely doubt the protection of the ERAWA 2 as stated above.
The reason is the test belowIn May of 2000, there were presentations of Dynamit Nobel Panzerfaust 3 anti-tank grenade launchers for Polish Army as a part of marketing campaign. There were firing tests of Panzerfaust 3 armed with 3T and improved 3-T600 tandem HEAT warheads (Dynamit Nobel claims that 3T is capable of piercing 900mm RHA behind ERA and 3-T600 over 1000mm RHA behind ERA at the hitting angle of 90 degrees). On Polish testing ground 3T was fired upon armoured steel plates of 550mm RHA screened with Erawa-2 at the hitting angle of 30 degrees and 3T-600 was fired at the similar target at hitting angle of 15 degrees. In both situations German warheads pierced through Erawa-2 but then were capable of penetrating only about 400mm of RHA. Germans were surprised by the protecting level gave by Erawa-2.
DonÂ’t be fooled by colourful presentation above, the results at 30 and 60 degrees and not at the optimum of 90 degrees( or 0 degrees of incidence , depending on how you measure it from) do not look impressive at all, let me explain, the baseline T-72M1 has armour protection of 480mm against CE, and with the fact that (rough estimation) at 30 deg(or 60 deg) only abt have half of the original penetration power and at 15 deg( or 75 deg) I think only abt have less than 1/3 of the original penetration power and they have already penetrated 400mm RHA!!!!
So in reality, Panzerfaust 3T at below 60 deg of incidence and Panzerfaust 3-T600 at below 75 deg of incidence will most likely able to penetrate the PT-91M even at itÂ’s thickest armour!!!!
Some may argue that PT-91M is more modernised than the Polish PT-91 but protection wise, it could not be dramatically higher becos of the limitation of high ground pressure(0.94 kgf/cm sq), & after all the weight increase from 45.9 tons (PT-91) to 46.5 ton(PT-91M) only a mere 0.6 tons.
So in conclusion , protection wise, PT-91M is certainly not impressive at all.
Later I will continue with part II............. -
Of course that's assuming the PT-91 has not had its passive armour package improved by the Polish. In which case it might give more protection then the 10 camels-a-tank Iraqi monkey model T-72.
On the other hand, we roughly know that our MATADOR should penetrate at least 450mm RHA (assuming it follows the rule that modern HEAT warheads penetrate 5 or more times their diameter).
At the end of the day I still would not try to deal with the Twardie from the frontal arc with the MATADOR, prehaps from the side there's a better chance of penetration.
But of course, we would not know until we've tried shooting on of them. -
The Poles probably had something one step higher than what Saddam had but one step lower than the Russian/Ukraine models. They probably only had the Tungsten rounds which may be of dubious quality.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Of course that's assuming the PT-91 has not had its passive armour package improved by the Polish. In which case it might give more protection then the 10 camels-a-tank Iraqi monkey model T-72.
On the other hand, we roughly know that our MATADOR should penetrate at least 450mm RHA (assuming it follows the rule that modern HEAT warheads penetrate 5 or more times their diameter).
At the end of the day I still would not try to deal with the Twardie from the frontal arc with the MATADOR, prehaps from the side there's a better chance of penetration.
But of course, we would not know until we've tried shooting on of them.
Frankly, I don't even know why the M'sians picked that tank. Doesn't make much sense. A T-90 which even the Indians can afford, never mind they have even tighter budget constraints than the M'sians, would have been a better choice.
Also, who ever designed the ERA package obviously doesn't have enough experience with it. It leaves so many gaps in the protection. The Russian ERA is more compact and probably more effective.