Aussie sub 88 op days a year?
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
2.it is mainly the pay problems and the news of colin class.
By all yardsticks they have a very good boat on their hands. The inability to field their boats as much as they would like is more reflective on them being unable to find people good enough to staff these boats (which is reflective on how advanced these SSKs actually are) then any reflection on the submarine themselves.
It is not too hi tec.Remember many problems of Colin class?
U tell me aussie of 23 million people cant find enough crews
to man few sub??
Will u encourage ur friend/relative work in a problematic sub
which sail deep into the water?
There are too mant problems.Read it .
3.School of Political and International Studies,The Flinders University of South Australia
March 2004,Copyright 2004 Maryanne Keltonpdf fileYet in 1997, after a politicised series of leaks, anecdotal
--www.sapo.org.au/binary622/New.pdf
evidence and press reports criticising the progress of the project,
at least three reviews were conducted to formally identify
the difficulties and suggest a course of action to remedy the
problems. -
It is apparent you speak with total ignorance on the matter.
Please don't be silly and stick to your guns with are firing blanks. Harp all you want on the technical problems of the Collins by drawing on unbalanced media reports, but at the end of the day the Aussies are still going to fix it, they are fixing it, and they ALREADY have the best SSK in the world out there.
If an SSK can best the USN and is under the consideration of the USN to study ASW tatics, as well as being upgraded to be on par electronics-wise with the latest Yankie SSNs... it's one boat any sailor wants to be in when it comes to war. -
Post all the artices you want:
The fact remains:
The Collins sub works for the Aussies, and it's is quite possibly the best SSK in the world.
The teething problems with it are being resolved.
Case closed.
You know, I actually prefer listening to actual sailors and submariners who know what they are talking about except some dude being a noisy lion quite possibly in trouble with the law trying to find unbalanced media reports to smear the Aussies. -
And worse, the article you quoted has its basis in 1997... hello, this is 2007:
This is what people are saying in 2007:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20070405.aspxAustralia is spending nearly a hundred million dollars each, to upgrade the sonar and fire control systems on its six Collins class subs, and this new deal with the U.S. means that those diesel electric subs will carry the most advanced electronics in the world. The Collins class boats, mainly because of the quality of their crews, have proved to be among the most capable diesel-electric subs in the world. This is known because Collins class boats often train with U.S. Navy ships and aircraft, and usually come out ahead.
This has made the American admirals more concerned about the threat from diesel-electric subs. For the moment, however, none of America's potential naval foes have submarine crews as well trained as the Australians. The new electronics will provide the Collins class boats with combat capabilities similar to the new U.S. Virginian class SSNs.
Man, you are really making a fool of yourself.
Post more nonsense here, expect to see nobody else reply to your posts and talk about better things like the Tibetian Navy... -
So sorry, I would like my friend to go out to the open ocean in such a sub... you can take the Kursk for all I care.
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Oz Colin class sub partial blind & crippled.
Unbalanced reports?
2.If u guys so respect RAN sub,why not
Join RAN & get Aussie PR!!\
3.US sold sub to Aussie .Of course they will praise Aussie.
This is conflict of interest,men!!
Will they denounce their own products? -
I wonder why this thread still continues to exist.
I mean, between Australia's problems and some US procurement problems which are far more worse, I think the latter are far more worth talking about than ... someone's personal grudge. -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
I think the PLAN has sailors of Tibetan origin.
And worse, the article you quoted has its basis in 1997... hello, this is [b]2007:
This is what people are saying in 2007:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20070405.aspx
Man, you are really making a fool of yourself.
Post more nonsense here, expect to see nobody else reply to your posts and talk about better things like the Tibetian Navy...
[/b] -
3.US sold sub to Aussie .Of course they will praise Aussie.
LOL, US sold sub to Australians?
This is conflict of interest,men!!
Since when did that happen? In lionnoisy's lala land?
And sorry hor, if the USN is interested in studying the Collins for ASW, you can be sure their praise for that class is due to very real concerns that it is so capable it can best their ASW technology and not because it's a good-on-paper submarine.
And best, you quote your own thread! And that thread draws from OLD media reports! The technical issues by and far are on their way to being resolved and all you put up won't change that fact.
Sorry hor, we have moved on liao. At the end of the day the Collins works, it is one of the best, and I'd rather not be up against it.
Prehaps if you are so sure it is lously and the aussies can't do anything with it, you will be willing to put your butt on the line by going up against it in a naval ASW battle?
If anything, of all the SSKs in the world that you should not fight, the Collins is among the top of the list. And in war that's what matters at the end of the day, not all your media reports by people who don't even know their stuff.
It is obvious you are not even doing your research, except to go google and try to search up as many negative, and duplicated articles to flame the aussies.
Yawn, you have not even convinced us one inch of the merits of your position. -
Sigh lionnoisy, looks like we just have to report you then... your anti-australian activities just must come to an end before it affects the ties between us and our Australian friends.
Expect to hear from the relevant people soon. -
From Wikipedia:
Dear lionnoisy,The Collins class submarines are the newest class of Australian submarines, built in Australia for the Royal Australian Navy. The class is made up of six vessels; Collins, Farncomb, Waller, Dechaineux, Sheean and Rankin, all six are based at HMAS Stirling in Western Australia.They were built by the Australian Submarine Corporation at Osborne, near Adelaide in South Australia. They replace much older Oberon class submarines in the Australian naval fleet. In a 2003 joint naval exercise, three Collins-class submarines reportedly "sank" two American Los Angeles class attack submarines and a US aircraft carrier, supporting the claimed combat effectiveness.
Please read the above Wikipedia article and weep.
I have put a couple of sentences in bold that you would find especially interesting.
Yours sincerely,
Fudgie. -
Sigh, does this joker realize the more he attempts to highlight the flaws of the Collins, the more he is actually making us realize that the Aussies have a SUPERSUB, one that even makes us envious despite having our own regional super SSK?
All this joker seems to do is however, much akin to picking up and harping on the early media reports of the M1 Abrams as a lemon of a tank that cannot do anything vulnerable to the cheap and rugged Iraqi armour due to teething problems in its technology long after is has proved itself by slaughtering just about any AFV in the world that it has gone up against.
If any boat can best the 688i class SSN... you can be darn sure it is a good boat.
Even though we have shallow waters, I think we would gladly trade one or two of our own superboats for the Collins. -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
There are 2 distinctly different issues being raised raised by lionnoisy here ...
School of Political and International Studies,The Flinders University of South Australia, March 2004,Copyright 2004 Maryanne Kelton
1) That of a recruitment/staffing shortage
This is undeniably true and unfortunately not that easy to redress.
The ADF is a volunteers force or in SAF speak, they are all sign-on Regular(s). As with any volunteer army in a free economy, they have to contend with the private sector for recruitments from a finite labour pool.
When times are bad and unemployment is high, the Armed Forces rarely has a problem filling it's billets. When times are good and the economy is booming, as is Australia's now, the Armed forces has to compete with the private sector for it's personnel ... IMO, this is where the bulk of their problem is stemming from right now. The minerals boom in WA is sucking up a lot of their HR at the moment.
Unfortunately, this is a problem that will confront any Armed Forces not just the Aussies. The SAF will be in a similar position were it to rely on an all volunteer force.
Easy enough to laugh at a soci-economic problem that afflicts all free market economies. Now if the noisy lion will like to try his hands at coming up with workable solution that won't blow the budget, I'm sure there is a CDF position (or at least a G1 position) open somewhere for him.
2) The issues of flaws with the Collins Subs
The exposition of this issue in the Australian media is a mix of (a bit of) facts and a whole lot of political agenda. People who have spent their whole life in the sanitised political environment of Singapore sometimes do not have any idea how "dirty" politics can get overseas.
Yes, there were build problems with the 1st boat in the Collins fleet but these have been resolved. The Collins fleet is now functioning as it should and in some areas have exceeded design parameters. The forthcoming Combat Systems upgrade will likely make them the best (on paper) conventional sub class in the world.
Talking about shooting yourself in the foot, it is rather apt that lionnoisy has quoted a report that if he had bothered to read would have shown to him that the problems with the Collins were more political than actual.
Even if noisylion had not bothered to read that far, if he had just made it to page 4 it can be seen that the main thrust of the report was to ..."Analyse how the projectÂ’s realisation has been detrimentally affected by its manipulation in Australian domestic politics.
For the unintiated, the Collins project straddles a change in the ruling party where the Australian Labour Party (ALP) was replaced by the Liberal Party Coalition in 1996. Kim Beasly, who was the ALP Defense Minister who initiated the Collins project mid 1980s also happens to be the Leader of the ALP contesting against the Liberals round about the time the "problems" with the Collins were first politicised in the period leading up to the early 2000s.
Concurrently I demonstrate how during the construction course the Collins project was captive of a change in broader foreign and defence policy orientation between the two governments who assumed responsibility for its creation and delivery.
Whilst the project was initiated during an era of the ALPÂ’s promotion of a more independent policy posture, after its election in 1996 the Coalition prioritised its bilateral relationship with the US. The policy divergence between these two postures manifested themselves in the tangible tensions surrounding the delivery of the Collins submarines."
Hence to quote Lionnoisy's report,"This politicisation of the project also served another function in addition to the denigration of Beazley Labor. By disregarding the action already in position to address any deficiency in the submarines, and by publicising instead the supposed faults, the government could clear the deck to allocate more funds to the project and invite assistance from the US.
and ...The politicisation of the project was similarly evident in the continued criticism of the then Leader of the Opposition, Kim Beazley, Reith had earlier stated that, (most) Australians will remember he is the man who is responsible for the Collins class submarines and we are still trying to fix up the problems that he created at a very significant cost to the taxpayer.
Moore & Reith are the Libs Coalition Defense Minister during the period.
Clearly, through further criticism of the Collins submarine project, the Coalition could target Beazley. As Beazley had enjoyed popular support for much of the pre-election period up until early September 2001 it was vital that he be neutralised electorally.As John Moore had so effectively publicised any fault in the submarines previously, Reith could reasonably expect that discrediting Beazley through this project would be successful. Thus, both John Moore and Peter Reith in their public rhetoric to rectify the ‘dud subs’ had acted to allay the domestic threat and sustain the Coalition’s incumbency."
The problems with the Collins class subs, while real, have been truly blown out of proportion and are largely due to:
i) Politicisation of the project due to change in ruling party with different foreign policies.
ii) Initial build problems with the 1st of class vessel constructed in Kockums shipyard. These have largely been resolved.
For a read, sans politics, into the evolution of the Collins Class Sub from people in the industry, have a look at this thread ...
RAN Collins class subs: verdict? -
BTW, the signature management technology or "stealth technology" that gf alluded to having been exported to Australia's defense allies ... We have them on our Subs. He alluded to this on a seperate thread and it helps explains (if the tech is as good as he says it is) why our Challengers, despite being old hulls, are actually quite serious threats in the SEA arena.
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Bravo kotay,
So what exactly lionnoisy is trying to do here, except to actually boost support for the Collins class and get himself deeper into trouble with the law by endangering and offending Australian-Singapore ties (as he has done in other forums and threads), is something known only to himself.
The Collins works, and works well. Period. -
farking hell. Its only a matter of time before the Australian clown Digger shows up to rebut the singaporean clown lionnoisy.
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And then we can sit back and watch and see who's noisier.Originally posted by Typhoon:farking hell. Its only a matter of time before the Australian clown Digger shows up to rebut the singaporean clown lionnoisy. -
"farking hell. Its only a matter of time before the Australian clown Digger shows up to rebut the singaporean clown lionnoisy."
Well I didn't think that it was needed up to now,so what you are saying is that when I disagree with someone like Lionnoisy I'm a clown, but when you guys do,your informed intellectuals?
Hey look, I know that this is your own little site here and that is why I rarely post, unless there is something from an Aussie perspective, I think I can contribute.
"And then we can sit back and watch and see who's noisier."
Sitting back and watching is of course something that most Singaporeans excel at.
(couldn't help myself) -
AD is a very credible forumner, he dabbles in aussie military from his experience (and militarily linked) company. Him and GF. So, please dont insult them, i troll the LDF often and know they arent empty vessels.
Lionnoisy is just digging a really big and deep grave for him to bury himself.
P.S. Ad, if you can directly inject your opinions on the Collins, please go ahead with what you can tell in brief. Thanks. -
Since this thread appears menaingless and merely another of the numerous attempts to discredit the Australian Defence Forces, it shall be closed within 24 hrs.
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Well, hey, it's interesting to see a good debate.Originally posted by digger:"farking hell. Its only a matter of time before the Australian clown Digger shows up to rebut the singaporean clown lionnoisy."
Well I didn't think that it was needed up to now,so what you are saying is that when I disagree with someone like Lionnoisy I'm a clown, but when you guys do,your informed intellectuals?
Hey look, I know that this is your own little site here and that is why I rarely post, unless there is something from an Aussie perspective, I think I can contribute.
"And then we can sit back and watch and see who's noisier."
Sitting back and watching is of course something that most Singaporeans excel at.
(couldn't help myself)
Especially when we know one side has a propensity to shoot himself in the foot while smiling at the act.