Y SG armour dun use 50 cal?
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CM06 - Water under the bridge.
Apologies from me, too. -
Anyway it is possible to use the M2 HMG as an infantry weapon... at least one American paratrooper tried it in WW2 anyway. He took a .50cal off a knocked-out AFV, made a sling out of a scarf, and lugged it into battle and fired at the Germans while screaming "I'm a jew! I'm a jew!"... and according to a friend he was killing them.
And yes, this is a true story. -
From what I hear from an Armour warrant officer, the .50cal is overkill against human target. To a point that it does ess tissue damage than a 7.62 gpmg. So to engage infantry targets, a 7.62 is preferred.
Basically, I asked if a .50cal would blow a big hole in a person. He said no, the weapon's muzzle velocity is too high for that to happen. -
I'm afraid the WO is quite mistaken... assuming no secondary effects like fragmentation there is no way a hit from a .50cal can do less damage then a 7.62mm.Originally posted by Shotgun:From what I hear from an Armour warrant officer, the .50cal is overkill against human target. To a point that it does ess tissue damage than a 7.62 gpmg. So to engage infantry targets, a 7.62 is preferred.
Basically, I asked if a .50cal would blow a big hole in a person. He said no, the weapon's muzzle velocity is too high for that to happen.
Even physically speaking, the hole a .50cal leaves will obviously be bigger then a 7.62mm. The heavier round creates more hydrostatic shock within soft tissue, and if it hits bone itself will cause the bone to shatter and splinter far more violently then a 7.62mm can ever achieve.
The superior killing ability of .50cal over 7.62mm was never in doubt, so I dunno where the WO you mentioned is getting his info from, but experience in Iraq will prove him wrong quite quickly. People hit with a burst from a .50cal can literally come apart quite violently and bursts have been known to take off limbs and do all kinds of nasy things to the human body. In generation kill, the driver of one enemy car attempting to ram a marine platoon was engaged with a .50cal and was hit in the head. When they examined the body they discovered that a single round, which had hit the head in the center, had blown away a large portion of the head, scooping out a neat 'V' shaped chunk of tissue.
Now, with a .50cal, you tend to get effects on human targets like this:
Warning very GRAPHIC
http://www.lo.redjupiter.com/images/braden/DeadTerrorist.jpg
This was supposedly done by a .50cal round...
And of course, one grunt talks about surviving a .50cal shot to the foot. There was quite a lot of damage done.As most of you who know me on this site know, I work for a leading PMC in Iraq and I am a PA with 25 years of trauma experience, mostly in SOF units. On Dec 16, I sustained a very severe ankle wound in Iraq by a .50 cal round (yep...I'll let you figure out what happened!). At any rate, the .50 cal round entered approx 4 cm posterio-medial above my medial malleolus and exited anteriorly at the articulation of my tib-fib and talus, sparing my foot. It took out my dorsalis pedis artery and most dorso-medial arterioles and nicked my posterior tibial arery...in short I was hemorrhaging rather briskly. I immediately placed a "good tourniquet" on my lower leg...continued bleeding! I then place a secone tourniquet in the popliteal space...continued bleeding! One of my teammates then placed a 3rd tourniquet between the two...continued bleeding! A pack of QC was then place in the wound and packed with a dressing....bleeding stopped immediately! I am a believer in the stuff!
There's no way you can achieve that with 7.62mm, if the .50cal was really less wounding then the 7.62mm, the Germans would certainly have no reason to fear it more then the .30cal the Yanks also had it in use, and the Germans had a healthy respect for the M2 Browning.
Every "operator" in my unit is issued a pack of QC in their individual medical kit, that I pack. Two points...if one sustains a wound serious enough to have QC poured into it...then that person will almost certainly be taken to the OR for at least a "washout procedure"...so contamination isn't an isuue. -
50 cal will really hurt people. It's called a HMG for a reason, and yes i would appreciate it if they mount a 50 cal on the Leo2.
I would rather they add in the 50 cal to all gpmg only armed vehicles currently though. It would be a huge boost in defense ability.
Anyone notice that our 50 cal is a thumb press trigger? It that common or is a normal index-pull trigger a better option? i find it quite hard to aim with actually. Luckily i have a joystick hehe. -
i think the recoil and shock will shatter your shoulder if you use the index trigger thingy..and it will be away too difficult to aim
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YOu are thinking of the GPMG type of setup with pistolgrip and butt.Originally posted by tek_koh:i think the recoil and shock will shatter your shoulder if you use the index trigger thingy..and it will be away too difficult to aim
CM06 is talking about a different type of trigger, but still on a spadegrip setup. -
The WO is definitely right about the first part - .50cal is definitely overkill against human targets.
But since when is that a bad thing?
The horrific injuries may also have a bad morale effect on the other attacking enemy troops.
The .50cal can shoot further and flatter trajectory than all the other calibres - that's why they are used a spotter rifle for the 106mm and now as long distance sniper rifles.
But it is also interesting to see how far SAF has come if a WO can talk about things like muzzle velocity etc. Most WO I encountered during my time were pretty stupid uneducated types whose only claim to the uniform is being able to shout a lot. -
Yeah, I notice some WOs like to throw smoke at their own men when it comes to a lot of things... I mean some are really garang but some others are just in it for the iron rice bowl... which is not so bad unless they feel the need to prove to you that they know more then they really do just to make you respect them.
Heard some rooster and bull story about we choosing the M16 over the AK because the AK was water cooled and hence heavier??!!! -
Frankly, I think that if a tank (Orginal TS talking about .50 on tank) is disabled, you are in big trouble already...Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Being able to recover a mounted weapon from a disabled unit is a good feature to have, but I hardly think it's a big deciding factor as to what to mount on your AFV. Guns we can always make more of and there's always the thermite grenade. If you are caught in a situtation where your AFV crew need a GPMG to defend yourself and friendlies are not around to support you then you are very likely screwed anyway.
and about the Primus (one of the other posts)... How are you going to kill a tank with a primus?
Originally posted by CM06:Hence why the bronco is never alone. It's suppose to be behind friendly forces or with AI coy. Any indication of intrusion they will smoke and zoom off. Quite hard to hit a very fast moving target.
For primus. it's just like an old atg. 155mm round without charges allows it to fire in straight position anyway. 155mm enough to punch a REALLY big hole in any ifv.
by the way .50 how to punch a hole in an ifv? 40 can if you fire like erm like 30 rounds. -
I think CM06 is speaking ffrom his experience as part of an amoured infantry unit - him being the vehicle component.
For them, it is indeed SOP for some of the 7.62 GPMG to be dismounted and used as an infantry weapon. As evidence of this, you see that especially some of the side-mounted GPMG comes complete with the wooden butt whereas on the SM1, the butt is always removed.
I'm sure you can say that it is easy to store the butt in the tank and install it with a few clicks but ... IMO, the 3-men crew of a disabled SM1 will be doing seveal things (ref my earlier posts) and dismounting a GPMG and fighting like infantry is probably the last options. -
Hmmm, I've seen pics of .50cal hits before too. But I believe what the WO meant was that a 7.62 is sufficient to take a person down, hence need not be engaged with a .50cal, which is normally loaded with SLAP.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:There's no way you can achieve that with 7.62mm, if the .50cal was really less wounding then the 7.62mm, the Germans would certainly have no reason to fear it more then the .30cal the Yanks also had it in use, and the Germans had a healthy respect for the M2 Browning. -
True enough, 7.62mm does the job well. But he was certainly smoking you one times big one when he said that .50cal does less tissue damage then 7.62. For the same ammo type, this is simply quite impossible unless you have some magic bullet fragmentation effects... which do not happen in your normal 7.62mm.Originally posted by Shotgun:Hmmm, I've seen pics of .50cal hits before too. But I believe what the WO meant was that a 7.62 is sufficient to take a person down, hence need not be engaged with a .50cal, which is normally loaded with SLAP.
However we are assuming that there are no other effects that you want like punching through cover to get to the dude behind and what have you not.
So the .50 has its place and role... the real question is if we are willing to exploit it. -
No no the GPMG with the butt removed is the coaxial mg...the one inside the SM1. The GPMG on top is the standard. one with the wooden butt and bipod. Heh.Originally posted by moca:I think CM06 is speaking ffrom his experience as part of an amoured infantry unit - him being the vehicle component.
For them, it is indeed SOP for some of the 7.62 GPMG to be dismounted and used as an infantry weapon. As evidence of this, you see that especially some of the side-mounted GPMG comes complete with the wooden butt whereas on the SM1, the butt is always removed.
I'm sure you can say that it is easy to store the butt in the tank and install it with a few clicks but ... IMO, the 3-men crew of a disabled SM1 will be doing seveal things (ref my earlier posts) and dismounting a GPMG and fighting like infantry is probably the last options.
Primus can shoot round level..there's your anti tank ability.
SM1 disabling i repeated, can mean engine, track, chassis damage. the people inside can still be 100% well minus shock. Having a gpmg is very handy in this situation for escape....not attack. For example, a RPG glancing off/too low can disable the SM1 completely(if) but the tankies are still well protected from shrapnel. They can escape intact. GPMG cover vs ambushing infantry is a big plus in this case.
I dont know where i read cannot find...which topic in Military nuts..someone say SM1 is 13 tons...that's M113 AH..please.. SM1 is 18 tons. Amx-13 is already 16.5...SM1 is upgraded with most of the stuff newer is at 18 tons. Thanks. -
Sorry, I really don't understand about the primus part. Not familiar with armour.
The Primus doesn't have a fire control system for such close range encounters right? How is it going to hit the enemy tank? Will it be just like a big shotgun with limited aim?
And wont the 155 Primus round damage the primus itself when the round lands close enough? -
Can shoot at tank at ground level means can aim the turret at the stationary tank n fire at it directly.
I think have the ability but doesnt means need to use ?
No sight, no lazer, no aim, can use agaration
If really too close, sure will dmg itself ba.
If im tank pc, i wont be too happy to see enemy tanks.
It means that i'm gg to be dead soon.
If im a vc of a primus, i wont be too happy to see enemy tanks.
It means that the battle maybe already lost. -
Even the bipods are removed!!!Originally posted by CM06:No no the GPMG with the butt removed is the coaxial mg...the one inside the SM1. The GPMG on top is the standard. one with the wooden butt and bipod. Heh.
http://hwa.fotopic.net/c572726_13.html
http://hwa.fotopic.net/p16094276.html
http://hwa.fotopic.net/p16398817.html
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CM06
I know you're right, too, about some tanks mounting the full GPMG with butts and bipods.
The Primus, for example, is always seen with a fully-equipped GPMG.
The Bionix, has a GPMG without butt or bipod for the commander, and a full GPMG (or 2?) for the troops compartment hatch.
But the SM1, for some reasons, is mostly stripped down GPMG.
Just your memory playing tricks. -
What about the effects of .50cal SLAP rounds on human tissue? The Armor Pierce round may not deal as much tissue damage from fragmentation due to high velocity and material composite?
Possible? -
I think the SM1's GPMG have the butt removed becos it is more easy the the TC to get out of hatch and not in the way...Originally posted by moca:CM06
I know you're right, too, about some tanks mounting the full GPMG with butts and bipods.
The Primus, for example, is always seen with a fully-equipped GPMG.
The Bionix, has a GPMG without butt or bipod for the commander, and a full GPMG (or 2?) for the troops compartment hatch.
But the SM1, for some reasons, is mostly stripped down GPMG.
Just your memory playing tricks.
btw, can someone tell me what is the doctrine for the M113 and BX equiped with the GPMG?
Will there is 2x GPMG on each side of the APC/IFV or only one side..
I am not AI lah.. but when i see pictures, typically only got one GPMG. And the other side is typically a trooper with a SAW.
And is the GPMG organic to the vehicle or the infantry. meaning when the AIs dismount, do they bring the GPMG along or just leave the GPMG behind on the vechile..
on a seperate note, is our BX/25mm turret the only IFV with a GPMG on the commanders turret?
I don't think the M2 Bradley/Warrior/BMP/CV90 have a pintle mounted MG on top of the turret -
I don't have the data so I wouldn't know... but I suppose we can speculate if we have some ideas on what the .50cal SLAP is really like. From what I could find, it's actually a 7.62mm penetrator given a .50cal boost. So all things considered if nothing hard like bone is hit... it should produce the same effect in soft tissue as a 7.62mm hit... except prehaps with less yawing effects (and hence less damage)? I don't know, not enough data.Originally posted by Shotgun:What about the effects of .50cal SLAP rounds on human tissue? The Armor Pierce round may not deal as much tissue damage from fragmentation due to high velocity and material composite?
Possible?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/slap.htm
SLAP rounds of any caliber will do less tissue damage, so why insist on comparing .50cal SLAP with normal 7.62mm? It's apples and oranges.
And why should a .50cal shoot only SLAP? Would not be the common ball round the most use? -
No matter whether it is a 7.62mm round or a 12.7mm round, when a round hit a human, they are equally maimed or killed.Originally posted by Shotgun:What about the effects of .50cal SLAP rounds on human tissue? The Armor Pierce round may not deal as much tissue damage from fragmentation due to high velocity and material composite?
Possible?
How much damage to human tissue is probably purely academic...
the military consideration should be...
a. effective Range and penetrating power
b. Weight of weapon (mounting consideration)
c. Weight and type of ammo (logistics) -
There are two variants of the GPMG.
With the butt/ and one with butt-plug. -
No lar, not comparing lar.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I don't have the data so I wouldn't know... but I suppose we can speculate if we have some ideas on what the .50cal SLAP is really like. From what I could find, it's actually a 7.62mm penetrator given a .50cal boost. So all things considered if nothing hard like bone is hit... it should produce the same effect in soft tissue as a 7.62mm hit... except prehaps with less yawing effects (and hence less damage)? I don't know, not enough data.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/slap.htm
SLAP rounds of any caliber will do less tissue damage, so why insist on comparing .50cal SLAP with normal 7.62mm? It's apples and oranges.
And why should a .50cal shoot only SLAP? Would not be the common ball round the most use?
Cos I recalled i was holding a .50 cal SLAP when I asked him about it.
So perhaps he might have answered me in context of that. Cos i don't believe that he would make a mistake of doubting the firepower of the 50cal.
Not really an argument from me, just wondering why he said what he said, thats all. -
[quote]Originally posted by spencer99:
I think the SM1's GPMG have the butt removed becos it is more easy the the TC to get out of hatch and not in the way...
The MG for SM1 is the CMG (coaxial MG) which is not a GPMG but a variant. It has no bipod and the butt is smaller and of a different design but serves the same purpose. It can be mounted for commander's use or in tandem with the main gun.
btw, can someone tell me what is the doctrine for the M113 and BX equiped with the GPMG?
Will there is 2x GPMG on each side of the APC/IFV or only one side..
I am not AI lah.. but when i see pictures, typically only got one GPMG. And the other side is typically a trooper with a SAW.
And is the GPMG organic to the vehicle or the infantry. meaning when the AIs dismount, do they bring the GPMG along or just leave the GPMG behind on the vechile..
Just remember that AI is called AI because troopers have to full-fill the role of the infantrymen as well other than the standard role (more preferred as well
) of attacking a position with the vehicle. If you understand why different variants of MG are mounted on different types of vehicle than the answer is obvious for the role of the GPMG on the IFV.
I would think it is not appropriate to discuss operational tactics and doctrines of AI.
on a seperate note, is our BX/25mm turret the only IFV with a GPMG on the commanders turret?
Don't think so but others prefer the 0.5" (12.7mm) or 14.7mm for AA role.
I don't think the M2 Bradley/Warrior/BMP/CV90 have a pintle mounted MG on top of the turret
