What's wrong with the SAR-21?
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i do feel that ROF is an important factor for a SAW. 30rders just dont really cut it.
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yup you are right ! 30 rders defeintly defeats the whole purpose of a SAW ! like having a 20 rd mags on GPMG!Originally posted by storm_freaky13:i do feel that ROF is an important factor for a SAW. 30rders just dont really cut it.
DAveC -
30 rounds mags will not be the de facto std during war time. They know that. The drums will be shipped from stockpile when the time comes since they are factory loaded.
But imagine this... if you were a M249 gunner & u ran out of belt ammo. Stranded in the field. No resupply train or even if they come, limited stock & variety, no belt ammo only 30 rd mags or worse, loose rounds. Ur version of the M249 does not have the magazine adapter (to save cost, complexity and weight), say the paratrooper version of it. U'd be stuck with a 15 lb piece of metallic deadweight.
With the U100, u can thumbload the drums with loose rounds to half-capacity or till your thumb hurts, whichever comes first.
Or u can always pick up any 30 rd mag from the field or borrow from ur buddies no problemo. U can even conserve the drums by using 30 rd mags for non-critical light covering fire...
We got the right gear & can be thankful for that...
A few thoughts:
1) Is the U100 able to take the SAR-21 polymer mags as is?
2) On a side note, I've been thinking of starting a new thread on whether the USMC will adopt the Ultimax 100... -
Sorry, old bird like me not been around for too long...
Found the other forum threads with the info. -
M249 will take M16 mags when you run out of drum!
Its not as bad as you think... reason most countries adopted M249 while only SIngapore and one or two other adopted the U100!
Not saying U100 is really bad ! I do like it ! just that the plastic drum that was design is flawed and no attempt was made to improve or make the weapon system better! shame on us!
DAveC -
DC, its not what I think or you think! Its what the users think & feedback that matters!
The facts are all there to see. You can't justify the objective facts & evidence like the numbers and reliability issues based on individual bias.
& WRONG! Not all M249s can use magazines! It may have been adopted for about 10 odd years only but there are so many variants around. Only certain variants fitted with the magazine port can have this alternate feeding ability using magazines.
Even then there are more reliability issues associated with having this dual feeding.
Chiefly the paratrooper, some Spec-op (special purpose) versions such as the Mk 46 omit the dual feeding.. due to guess what? Cost, weight & reliability issues!
Moral of the story, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Else the SAR 21 and U100 would be able to use canvas/paper/wooden/polymer/metal magazines et al. -
LEt!.
.like what you said, let the user's verdict make the rules.... the M249 has been use by most western world countries, NATO and non NATO countries have adopted the system...I think the statistics tells..
All reports and verdicts plus some personal experience with the M249 have been positive!
Yes you are right that some version of the M249 do not use the Stagnag magazine adapter... ... have we ever thought that they toook it out for a reason.... probably this is a redundant system .... a feature that is good to have but in the world of compromise.... the para version was decided to ommit such feature!
DOn;t forget that not all M16 mags will fit our Ultimax 100... I remeber my NS time when some mags are M16 and some have the 2 holes for the SAW ! SO technically in war time unless all mags have the SAW conversion mags! the regular M16mags will not work! But ! 2nd probelm, SIngapore has gone to the SAR21 ! and the mags will not fit the U100! So! this issue is not relavent anymore!
The Mk.4 would have solve this problem but.. it is still using the Beta C mag which has so much reliability issue in Iraq ! So! we are back to the fundamental problem of a flawed feeding system.
DAveC -
Dave, just to check with you. Are you saying the Beta-Cs only have problems with sandy environments like deserts?
Our lil neighbourhood doesn't seem to have much of those. If the SAF itself would adopt the Mk4s, with Beta-Cs, ( I presume it wont have much problems in the tropics.) then we'd have resolved our lil feeding issue. -
From PErsonal experience , yes! the BEta has issues with sand getting into the system and it has to be lube with Graphite tube! it will work with some care! but it is not fool proof and defeintly not soldier proof.
WOuld it work in Tropics ! Maybe a little better.... but having wet graphite inside the feeding system,, I have not tested it that way... defeintly will have to look into that.
DAveC! -
Okay so the future versions of our SAW would ideally be able to take SAR-21 Polymer mags. That seems to be the most important factor. Better build quality.
I hope STK comes up with a brand new SAW that will meet the requirements. that will be the best thing to ever happen for the U100 problem. -
Dave, not that I want to re-invent the wheel by re-visiting the history of how the Minimi was adopted as M249 and all that but people lose sight of the history and context of things.
The fact remains that it replaced the M60, which was more like a GPMG by today's standards, 7.62mm, weight, size & all. Not to slight the M249 but its easy to see why it was considered a major improvement over its predecessor - as a SAW.
But then again, the M60 itself as a replacement for the venerable Browning BAR was such a huge step backwards for the concept of the SAW anyway, the bar was therefore set very low. It was a compromise of a solution to be everything - aircraft, heli, tank, vehicle, fire-base, boat/ship mounting – but it was an awful SAW...
An observation of what is a political point must surely be made - it is a no-brainer that most of the countries adopted the M249 either because they were NATO (for standardization & cross-operability purposes), or regarded the US as the reference point to save costs, or merely lacked real conflict experience to do any better. In times of uncertainty, adopting the same “SAW” as the US was an iron rice-bowl management decision - u’re less likely to see your head roll if the procurement decision proves to be a dud (“the US adopted it what…”).
Problems with the M249 as an inappropriate SAW (perhaps better for everything else) first surfaced during Desert Storm, which coincided with its implementation (in fact it was rushed straight from manufacturing to bolster the limited numbers in service) but it was a conflict too brief to do more than flag up the problems. As the USÂ’ first major engagement since WWII in desert conditions, the red flags were buried under all the other issues, such as Apache/heli rotor blades wear out, jet engine turbine failures, vehicle air filter clogs among a million other problems. Probably due to political reasons as well, it was swept under the rag as it would have been too unpalatable to condemn a newly fielded weapon as a flawed SAW platform.
However, it is this current prolonged conflict in Iraq/Afghanistan 10 odd years later that has raised such pressing concerns that the USMC deemed it necessary to issue a call for new specifications. Call it the IAR or what you will, itÂ’s a necessarily political move to justify to Congress yet more additional expenditure for yet another non-standard SAW/LMG by & for yet another branch of the US armed services. The USMC proved up to its reputation as being no bullshit indeed by saying what needed to be said, with analysts almost unanimously agreeing it was testament to the problems with the M249.
I dun think we need to gloat like the SAF made the perfect decision (is there ever one?), but it was certainly very brave and a GOOD decision to actually create something that turned SAW design on its head. A good design stands the test of time, it was revolutionary, not evolutionary like the M249. Its vindicated by the fact that its born about the same time but has proven to be more relevant than everÂ… even rated far better as a SAW by analysts in these times. Perhaps it was by default thrust upon the SAF given the limitations of physique and our basic infantry unitÂ’s squad size, whatever.
When I made my first post, it reflected my beef on this thread with all the juvenile & irrational bleating about why anything is superior to the U100, like belt-feeding, 200 rounds, even the look of the M249 – when it is plainly NOT the case. Even the C-Mag, which was bandied about like some Mattel must-have Christmas wishlist toy by so many, including you - I simply had to mention the reliability problems and ridiculous (to me at least) graphite lubing needed. And contrary to your earlier post, its reliability issues are so wide, it extends to hand loading to full capacity too.
Your clear fascination with the M249, belt-feed systems and/or C-Mags reflects this Hollywood-ish fetish with lots of rounds for Rambo like auto bursts, not withstanding the current major rethink about the M249 amidst all the issues it presented like reliability, complexity, cost, weight etc. which I raised in my first long post.
My point about the statistics is that if the current “most widely adopted” belt-feeding SAW in the Western/allied world is the subject of the top complaints by US troops, it goes to show that the M249 and belt-feeding CANNOT be better than what we have, the U100, which has even proven to out-hit it. What you repeatedly champion as being superior when you tried it as a gun nut is wholly different from lugging it under combat conditions. -
On a side note:
Recognise also one other thingÂ… dual belt/mag feeding on the M249 isnÂ’t just an issue based on whether the variant has the magazine port. By reliability issues, IÂ’m referring to issues like the M16 magÂ’s spring not being strong enough to feed the M249 - one reason being its very high rate of fire. ThatÂ’s what I meant by the cost/complexity/weight issueÂ… itÂ’s a feature which is at best unreliable and at worst a penalty better done without.
At least this much is clear, dual feeding has never been very practical nor perfect for any weapons platform. At least with the U100 & M16, there was the talk in the SAF of adding the 2 holes to all M16 mags, an incredibly cheap measure, though IÂ’m not sure whether since my time, its been completed. My understanding is that a large number has been so modified. Again, as I mentioned before, the SAF has a huge stockpile of brand new ammo & mags all over the island for any war, including secret underground sites dug into our Bt Timah granite hill areas. The training stuff that unfortunately we all use is NOT the real deal.
Some others on military nuts have speculated on the mag compatibility issue post-SAR21. So will there be a change to the SAR-21 LMG (nah!), modification of the U100 to take the same polymer mags or simply retention of the status quo? If the latter, at least there’s a huge quantity of M16 mags available for the status quo – CHEAP!
Whicheverway, its kinda obvious that magazine feeding and even ammo design is in flux. U canÂ’t replace a 40 year old gun w/o spending some $$$ on magazine streamlining! I remember my time when we had to use rubber bands to secure the M16 mags on M16s as insurance against big time detention in barracks. Anything would be an improvement.
Its not just a situation unique to the SAF with the recent adoption of the SAR 21.
The U100 Mk 4 xxx if adopted by the USMC could point the way to future feed strategy - U100 drum, M16 Stanag, XM-8/SAR 21 clear polymer or some new std. No country has any idea where the solution. -
No, you got it wrong there. Graphite lube is a proven form of DRY lubricant, its not wet. Its used in industrial machinery too. Its carbon powder based and slides because of the molecular structure of the carbon being in sheet/layer form.Originally posted by davechng:WOuld it work in Tropics ! Maybe a little better.... but having wet graphite inside the feeding system,, I have not tested it that way... defeintly will have to look into that.
DAveC!
In the case of the C-Mag, its because its so difficult to open up to maintain (requiring tools and a clean environment) that the manufacturers provide it to pre-empt users from applying normal oil based lubricants. Oil attracts dirt & dust, compounding the reliability problems. In temperature extremes, it also causes the polymer/plastic parts to break down over time. -
people love the hollywood fiasco ... but as a firearms enthusiast and collector, I do look for different aspect of the weapon!
Maybe I should explain myself better.. in the 1st place when I mention wet graphite I am refering to using a beta in a tropical ,very humid, raining environement when you poir in dry lube into your beta and humidity and the constant monsoon rain( which I expereince in Ex Lancer ) how cann you get rid of those water and keep the mag dry! ... will the dry graphite gumb up??
as for my experience with SAw funny thing brought this up,,... one of my freind's wife was deeply involve in the SAW evalutation and selection prgram inthe defence procurement dept back in the days. and I actually had quite a lot of talk with her regards to this selction after th M249 was selcted ! thus... the M249 was selected as the M60 replacement becasue of changeof doctrine and the flawed design of the M60 ....you will be suprirse what the M249 had to go thru in the SAW evaluation prgram! and I also get to respect a lot on the HK 21 and 23e guns becasue they werre rigged in some of the test and the gun perform respectvey ..... there is a lot of polictics involve but the M249 defeintly perform very well...other sources I have are from recent combat evalutaions we gather from the military, personal expreinces . so.. with my source the M249 did quite high marks in contarary to your negative feedback on it....
I guess this boils down to your opinion and mine and others..... there is no perfect system out there ... maybe not yet! no point in making this arguement to a point of no return..... we will see system being improve and hopfully... see U100 marketed the way it suppose to be....
DAvec -
Originally posted by Let:
I have posted some questions for you over at the U100 thread. Please go there.
The fact remains that it replaced the M60, which was more like a GPMG by today's standards, 7.62mm, weight, size & all. Not to slight the M249 but its easy to see why it was considered a major improvement over its predecessor - as a SAW.
etc etc etc
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=248644&page=3 -
I am what people call a lurker, Just read and rarely(If ever post in this forum)
LET, your understanding of SAW U100/Minimi impress me.
As a Junior Member, sorry for been so blunt. This Thread is For SAR-21. there are some issues with the fellow and it's being resolved.
SG combat concept for SAW differs from that of Other Countries (Very Normal)
U100 is mean for Assault Operation, be it 100 rd Mag/30 rd Mag. Both serve the Purpose very well. Nice, Narrow and light weight, the length can be reduce, but reducing the barrel lenght, range is affected. Look at the Butt, some modifications can be done.
Explanation,
Dependent on Unit SOP (Infantry and Armour Unit differs on this also):
A typical "Text Book" single contact, takes the SAW about 160-200 rds are used, either 2 100 rds Mag or 1 100 rds, and the rest 30 rds Mag. With the "Fresh" clip inserted before the final assault.
Minimi, if a problem is encounter with that Ammo Box(200 rds), it take slight longer to replace as compared with U100 100/30 rds system. Minimi 30 rd Mag replacement timing is similar with U100 system.
Belt Feeded Problems
1. Weight
Minimi, there are 200, 100 and the 30 rd version. Some will argue that the 200 rds is enough ammo for a single contact. This I would agree, but the price/penalty is the weight of the whole weapon (As what Let had mentioned).
2. Cleaniness of Ammo
Mag cover the Ammo, with less leakage as compare with belt system.
Minimi is a fine weapon when used in a Defensive Operation. Long Belt of Ammo can be linked up to provide protection capability, without the need to replace the ammo box.
In a Defensive position, (I play alot of this as Aggressor Simulator) In a Well kept Gun, rarely need to open up the weapon to reload, shot till tens of rds left, shift the next box over, link up, and continue to cause "Misery".
No need to worry about Dirt/Sand fouling up the Link and Jamming the weapon.
More rds can be put thro a Minimi, than a U100, partly due to the extra barrel supplied, and the Gas system.
In an Assault situation, I prefer to use a Mag system, as the ammo can be kept cleaner, and less chance of fouling.
3. Aiming
In an Unsupported Position, U100 wins this area Hands down.
In a Tripod position Minimi is Far Superior Accuracy, no U100 Tripod is issued at the current ORBAT.
Little Secret
In some unnamed countries (X and the Union Jack Fellow) GPMG ready to use ammo for Infantry, are kept either in a special Box Mag or , a cloth sleeve. just to keep the Ammo clean and prevent jamming.
Agree with Let
U100 serve SAF purpose better. Minimi is nice to have, if it can be easier on the weight department.
Keep This Thread is For SAR-21. Thanx -
Since there was mention of chamber explosions earlier in the thread, I thought this will make a nice addition to the discussion ...
Posted by Anti_tanky @ MilitaryphotosOh yeah, another interesting thing is the bolt cam pin. I had an MP mate who at range, "forgot" to put his bolt cam pin back in the weapon while reassembling it in the dark.
This is what happened to his weapon for neglecting such a mundane detail.
Thats right ladies and gentlemen, A glorious chamber explosion.
For those of you a little unfamiliar with the rifle, that flat surface is where the bolt slides back and ejects the cartridge. Everything else around it should be covered with that plastic, but as you can see, theres not much left of that. No he didn't get injured, and they didn't even send him to DB for 7 years or fine him $7000 like they always said they would. All he got was 3 weeks stoppage of leave, lucky bastard.
He described it as feeling as if he fired the weapon normally, only that it was "f*cking loud" for some reason, and he smelt the overpowering stench of birthday candles thereafter. One of our mates did get hit on the helmet by the plastic shrapnel though. -
Originally posted by kotay:Since there was mention of chamber explosions earlier in the thread, I thought this will make a nice addition to the discussion ...
Posted by Anti_tanky @ Militaryphotos
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the kevlar plate really works. Damn, dun think i'll try shooting it left-handed already.
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Farking hell...this has got me convinced...
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With regards to the U100's 30/100 round mags issue...i suppose it boils down to this. Not sure if others have mentioned it but...SG is largely urban. If sh*t hits the fan, be sure to see our boys chionging up HDB,Condos, Commercial Bldgs. The drum is a good choice,when doing suppressive or coastal deployments when you have waves of baddies rushing you and all you need to do is lean back on the trigger and the enemies keeps on dying. But for the 30 rounders,its more streamlined, lighter then the drum and as such, for rushing into a HDB unit with 3/4 guys behind or ahead of me, ensures that I'm able to keep pace doesn't it? And you don't go Rambo, but you have a buddy with u in FIBUA/CQB. So even though you zap your rounds through very quickly, and have to duck to reload will be there to make up for the firepower.
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Me, too. I'll stop bi.tching about the weight. Give me more kevlar!!!Originally posted by SpecOps87:Farking hell...this has got me convinced... -
There is a picture post of a SAR-21 with a chamber explosion on militaryphotos.net The cause was the user. He did not assemble the rifle properly.
There is a large market of 3rd party add ons and magazines for M16 /M4 /C4, so for the SAR-21 to make a good sale, it should be at least compatible with the venerable M16, eg magazine.
The various types of foregrips are simply astounding. -
Imagine your face is on this particular side....Originally posted by kotay:Since there was mention of chamber explosions earlier in the thread, I thought this will make a nice addition to the discussion ...
Posted by Anti_tanky @ Militaryphotos -
Did you see a picture of an Aug chamber explosion test?
In pieces I tell you....
I just wished I knew where to find the pic.
The dirty little secret of bullpups is the chamber explosion issue... but it seems for the industry the pratice is to keep quiet about it.