What's wrong with the SAR-21?
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I think that can be done. Maybe a periscope like attachment for the scope. Except that the extension extends to the left eye....Originally posted by davechng:How about the ability for a left hand shooter and right hand shooter to shoot this rifle.! You can;t always be a right hand shooter because some people have natural left master eye!
DaveC -
It is possible with the current models... but just hope dun have chamber explosion!Originally posted by davechng:How about the ability for a left hand shooter and right hand shooter to shoot this rifle.! You can;t always be a right hand shooter because some people have natural left master eye!
DaveC -
OKok. How about this:
A pinhole-type camera thats factory zeroed with the rifle. So when u aim, you don't even need to aim thru the scope. Just look a small cell-phone sized display and squeeze. -
there is. The cornershot for fibua..just turn the camera face straight lor...your own CS sight screen liaoz.
and yes all left handers can use sar 21...just not kevlar...and since the kevlar is on the OTHER side...good luck.. if there's chamber explosion.. -
i'm not talking abt a corner shot... just something for the lefties. hA
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lefties can use sar21 with no difference.
I 'm referring to the guy who suggested have a phone lcd with a reticle attached to the scope. -
actually, it has more than 1 benefit.
It allows a shooter to switch shoulders esp when firing around cover, and still engage accurately. -
Then cornershot is the way to go man...
However the current one we use, ala. the one by 6th SIR for FIBUA is more of a makeshift, addon to the current SAR-21 then an actual cornershot system.
Granted it works but it'll be cool to see something that goes all the way, probably in lines of the 3G ACM concept of having a multi-function electronic sight projecting onto a HMD so the user can use the weapon without ever having to put his eyes to the scope, opens up all kinds of tatical possibilities.
Oh, but batteries as always are the issue. Until this technology makes some gains it is all still not entirely grunt qualified. -
the screen looks damn fragile as well. i mean the way its mounted.
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The corner shot is something that will appear only in media reports.
If after 20 years we still don't get to train with 100-round drum magazines for the Ultimax, The chance of you getting a video camera on your weapon is gonna be slim. -
You do know that it was a safety issue that caused us to withdraw those 100 rd drums?
Lack of safety and reliability to be precise.
The other feasible alternative to standard mags is of course belt-fed 5.56mm.... -
You sure about this?Originally posted by CM06:You do know that it was a safety issue that caused us to withdraw those 100 rd drums?
Lack of safety and reliability to be precise.
The other feasible alternative to standard mags is of course belt-fed 5.56mm.... -
You are forgetting C-Mags...
Sure they have their issues but hey the civvies who shoot the U100 have got it to work pretty well as the video on YouTube shows. -
From what i was told the safety and reliability issue was the fact that it IS a 100 rd drum magazine.
Safety, there's an odd chance the the SAW (due to the fact it's pure auto fire) will have a run away gun IE...it will keep spraying until it hits zero...and you cant stop it short of ripping out the magazine.
Reliability...due to the long coil spring, there's difficulty in the loading (hence why it's factory machine loaded) and the odd chance when it jams...you cant pop out the rounds simply cause it's coils round and round...and you waste a whole drum.
Why it's not fixed...i have no clue. That's what i was told and why it was withdrawn. -
Looks like the 100 rd drum has its fault! but being able to firing until the gun is empty looks like a gun design issue and not the mags !if they will do that on the 100rders it will do it on the 30 rders unless the 100 rders is engage into the gun differeintly than the 30 rders which I doubt
the Beta C mag has its relaibility issue too in the sandbox !thus you don;t see a lot of those being use in Iraq!
ANyway! for a good SAW I still think a belt fed is the way!
DaveC -
Not sure about belt fed though... that method also has its own issues- namely in the area of reloading time and the jangling sound a half-empty box of ammo belt makes at night if you are not careful. Getting your ammo into a disposable belt is also another pain for the section level weapon.
Hence, it seems that a lot of emergent proposed LMG designs turn to the magazine system for the answer, so I wonder if going belts is a step forward.
Heh, but it seems we're still waiting for the holy grail of magazine technology- the reliable high cap mag.
But come to think of it spring loaded drum mags have been around for a very long time... it is odd that we didn't think to come up with one that works and works well.
As to why the drum mag was withdrawn, one of my PCs in SISPEC was one of the people present to witness the actual moment that made that choice (some of them disagreeded with the change but lacked the rank to pull), apparently the main issue was not reliability but the inability to handload the drum to full capacity once the factory load had been expended... so some wise guy though it was lighter and more compact (though not egronomically wiser) to simply carry 3 mags of thirty then one drum which you could at most handload up to 50 when it should be taking 100. -
that is really bad decision to withdraw the 100 rd drum! I would think they should improve on it ... the 30 rd thing will not work as a SAW! especially you need it as a sustain firing weapon! what a dumb idea to just use 30 rders as a SAW!
I have tried the M249 and felt it to be superior to all drums ... it is fast to reload and have a hefty firep[ower on the move or static!
I guess you can see most major operators uses a belt fed type SAW!
The German has the HK, the ISreali have the Negev, others all adopted the M249 and now the M248!
DaveC! -
Both systems have their pros and cons... HOWEVER it does seem that in the current design thinking is leaning towards trying for the drum mags, especially when you get those SAW variants of the ARs.Originally posted by davechng:I guess you can see most major operators uses a belt fed type SAW!
The German has the HK, the ISreali have the Negev, others all adopted the M249 and now the M248!
DaveC!
Mags have several obvious advantages over belts when it comes to the section level firearm. Mags are reusable, present less of a logistical footprint then belts (due to the links), and prehaps more importantly can share ammo between all the grunts when it needs to be spread out.
Reload times... well I don't think it's a big issue. BUT one must remember we use the U100 a tad differently then how other armies use their SAWs, given we often employ it in the mobile assault role as opposed to its use as a static support automatic weapon, so a decrease in reload time might be useful from a mag based weapon.
But yeah, they really need to figure a good solution for the drum mag, as opposed to us relying on the 30 round mags for the SAW. -
I have to agree with DaveC that 30rd mag does not cut it for a SAW. The firing rate increases when using 30rd mags, and that results in a few number of squeezes be4 having to reload the weapon again.
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DaveC,
the USMC have a name for the way we employ our Ultimax - Infantry Automatic Rifle (IAR). And their specs for an IAR evaluation is magazine fed.
And as you all know the USMC is evaluating the Ultimax in its Mk 4 incarnation. The drum must work relatively well for the USMC to even consider it. If the drums are faulty, STK would not submit the Ultimax system for evaluation as it will completely ruin STK's image.
Anyone know the outcome of the USMC evaluation? -
The FN Minimi is also used in the "mobile assault role" by those nations that employs it. It's just heavier.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:... we use the U100 a tad differently then how other armies use their SAWs, given we often employ it in the mobile assault role as opposed to its use as a static support automatic weapon, ...
In fact, the question of relaoding is actually in the fN Minimi's favour.
Why?
Because the Minimi can take a 200-round belt.
Again, I emphasize that I am pro-magazine and definitely pro-Ultimax. I am just quoting an argument another fellow from the Modern Firearms Forum gave in the belt-vs mag debate we had. -
good drum system needs lots of redesign on the drum mags! Maybe a newer iteration of the Beta Cmag would solve the reliability issues
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The U100 Mk 4 uses the M16 type mag weld and thus could use the Beta C Mag! the C mag although can be loaded with hand and a small tool! is still not the perfect solution to the Drum issue!
Hopfully the designer from ST is not rellying on the Beta as their solution to the feeding drum problems!
I would like to see the U100 to be fielded correctly! and I Do like the U100! I would love to buy one here in the US but they are not really available as a CLass 3 weapon here! So! pretty much we are SOL. I've got a few M4 including one in piston running a few Beta mags! they worked great until you bring these mags to the Desert in AZ! We had one machine gun shoot there and we get multiple jams on the beta C mags...
Agreebale with you all that Mags would be much more compact , less cumbersome! but unless they can improve on the reliability! I take somthing that is reliable 1st over anything! Reason also I went to a Piston M4 or SIG 550 series or FAL over the M16 system.
DaveC[/img] -
Please, unless you really know the facts, let's not make wild conjecture about the reliability & safety. It is reliable & certainly safe. The Croatians loved it during the Serbian war. There are no confirmed reports otherwise in all the 20 years.
The reason the U100 drum magazine is not widely used in the SG army is the difficulty with hand loading to the max (100 rounds) cost due to the strength of the spring. That & the cost.
For training purposes, the need to reload regularly and the cost of sending it back for machine reloading makes it costly for peacetime use. Believe me, they have stockpiles of it ... when it comes to war time ... it'll be issued pronto.
Its the same case with all large capacity magazines since time immemorial. The Thompson sub-machinegun during WWII was the same. The mobsters (clean urban setting, dodgy money, macho scare factor) used the drum but ironically not the troops during WWII. Even then its not even anywhere near 100 rounds.
The cost is also an issue with all modern "large" capacity magazines. Look at the price of the P90 mag.
Some misconceptions I noted:
1) C-Mags
They are not the answer. If only because they need graphite lubricants in order to hand load!
Its tough enough to expect soldiers to clean/oil their rifles during combat. To expect them to lubricate their magazine is ridiculous to me. I'd rather be maintaining the rifle.
Incidentally, the American designer commissioned by Singapore to invent the beloved Ultimax 100 is also the inventor of the C-Mag. The original version was all black, nylon plastic. No lubrication needed. But the current C-mag makers put in a clear Lexan back to enable viewing of the remaining rounds. Penalty - the lubricant. If u dun use it, it'll jam too.
Of course, the cost of each mag again. The U100 drum is simpler.
2) Belt-feeding
I dun know why so many ppl yearn for belt-feeding. Be careful about the devil you ask for.
Read the US troops current top complaints. The M249 is one of them. The Iraq experience has shown that its slower to reload, mechanism is more complex & prone to reliability problems especially when encountering sand/mud, cleaning/oiling/maintenance is a pain as a result, the gun needs to divert more gas to provide the energy to "pull" the belt through the system, which means that theoretically, given the same barrel length, less propellant goes towards pushing the projectile = less projectile energy/accuracy/range etc., the ammo on a per round basis is heavier & more costly due to the metal links.
I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. If you use the 100 rd drum everyday, you will not be even wishing for belt ammo.
That forms the basis why the USMC is evaluating the LMG concept for which the U100 is the only EXISTING product that fits ALL its requirements without modification.
As to the perceived disadvantages, they are a non-issue:
1) Why do you need 200 rounds, when you know that the U100 is the most accurate LMG/SAW in the world? Our boys representing the SG army in the Aussie combat skills competitions ALWAYS top score against all the US/Aussie/NZ/Brit or whatever countries taking part - all using the FN M249.
The whole point is to concentrate the bursts into tight groupings. Make every round count. Use short accurate bursts. The U100 outhits the M249 ALL THE TIME.
Only Hollywood likes unlimited rounds. Real soldiers have to bloody lug them around.
The U100 means less weight penalty not only gun wise but ammo wise. The strain on the logistics chain is more manageable too.
2) The U100 weighs 10lbs as opposed to the 15 lbs of the M249.
I DON'T EVER WANT US TO BE USING THE M249. If u've ever done your road marches or jungle exercises, u'd be crazy to want to struggle with a weapon 50% heavier or with 200 round ammo boxes or worse... noisy clinky ammo belts!
Same barrel length & overall gun length. But the U100 is infinitely more usable with a folding stock too.
3) The U100 can use the 30 rd mags wheras the M249 needs another complex /costly/heavy adapter.
4) Speed of loading / self-sufficiency.
Besides the oft mentioned doctrines of the SAW gunner as integral to the assault maneuvers, the SG army is quite unique with its 7 man squad. Population constraint, what to do? Yet still must maximise firepower right?
The SAW gunner has to be self-sufficient and able to reload as quickly as any other soldier using the 30 rd mag.
With the M249, you'd need another soldier for support, if not for quicker loading, then to carry the bloody ammo! Which the gunner tends to waste because he is far less accurate and tends to squeeze off using longer bursts!
See the vicious cycle?
5) Ability to handload - moot point
For goodness sakes, how the hell do you intend to hand link individual bullets from M16/M4s into belt form while in the field? Using glue? Sewing kit?
What has been bandied about is the issue of small mechanical loaders to "lever" the ammo reload in the field though, that could be the answer. -
erm.. to me as a SAW gunner, the problem i encounter is the ability to fire at night..
cant aim anything..