What's wrong with the SAR-21?
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What flamings? This?Originally posted by Texcoco II:With all these flamings, maybe the mod will do wise to close this thread up?
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Wow, this thread is getting intelligent...
Dudes, quit it already will yah? -
Let's take a look at the cancelled XM-8 programme. Although the weapon was unsuccessful, the project requirement gives an idea of what the US is looking for in the next generation of weapons.
QUOTE:
"The XM8 Assault Weapon System is lighter than a comparably equipped M4 Carbine Modular Weapon System (MWS) with improved features and performance unavailable in the current M4. The XM8 will have increased reliability and decreased logistic costs.
Design goals:
* Increased reliability - capable of firing 20,000 rounds without stoppages or malfunction.
* Cost effective - 1/3 less than cost of current base weapon system.
* Weight reduction - 30% weight reduction objective vs the current weapon system.
* Longevity - increased over the current weapon system.
* Less training - Soldiers trained in 1/3 the time.
* Highly functional - quick and easy interchangeable parts for changing missions.
* Multi-functional - three variants: one weapon family.
XM-8 Weight: 6.4 lb (2.9 kg) - prototype
5.7 lb (2.6 kg) - objective
Americans, whom are usually bigger than Asians, are aiming for a rifle weight of no more than 2.6kg! (By comparison, SAR-21 is 3.82kg) -
What's so surprising?
They intend the next infantry small arm to be used far into the future, it's no surprise they should set the bar really high for it, not to mention develop it at almost any cost.
Probably a reason why after quite some time and several attempts they have still not yet replaced their M-16 series of weapons, when they have been intending to do so for over 20 years now, but have held off so far. My money was actually on the XM8 to actually replace the venerable '16, but it looks like I was off yet again.
I think their requirements are going to become even more ambitious as technologies mature. -
Oh, did I express surprise?
I was pointing out that while the Americans are aiming for a 30% decrease in weapon weight over the M16/M4, the SAR-21 actually went the opposite way and resulted in a (30%?) weight increase over the M16/M4.
Is the XM-8 is officially dead, or just put on hold? -
Pity about the Yanks not being able to crack their next gen rifle puzzle though, but they really let out all the dogs to achieve their aims. But I suppose the relevant technologies had simply not matured enough for their to achieve their goals.
Much of the cost and weight savings, not all of which have actually been achieved in the current prototypes, are from the weapon's electronic sight. The sight is much more than a 1.5x red dot scope, including IR lasers and pointers as well.
But seesh, it was a cool gun.
The baseline XM8 carbine (with its integrated sight), for example, can be compared to a M4 carbine with a host of previous-generation electronic add-ons like the AN/PEQ-2, M68 CCO, ACOG, and/or BUIS. Without the advantage of the next-generation combined electronics sight, the XM8 would be both heavier and more expensive than the firearms it is intended to replace. The XM320 grenade launcher intended to be used with the current M4/M16 firearms as well as the XM8 family, is heavier than the M203, but does include feature enhancements. -
Whoops, I didn't catch your post. Nope, I wasn't refering to you expressing surprise, just that that nobody should find it really surprising.
I was pointing out that while the Americans are aiming for a 30% decrease in weapon weight over the M16/M4, the SAR-21 actually went the opposite way and resulted in a (30%?) weight increase over the M16/M4.
Noted, but I think the reason as to why it's quite obvious in itself:
The SAR was designed under different circumstances, not mention more modest requirements to create a replacement to the M-16 more in step with its time while the whole American ACR project is a far more ambitious thing more akin to creating a totally new generation of small arms (one type, all guns) and getting the whole concept working to begin with.Is the XM-8 is officially dead, or just put on hold?
It's has been dead for over a year now (as of 31st Oct 2005), after having being put on hold for a while. I think they tried putting the weapon up for other things but so far they have been unsucessful. -
AFAIK, what H&K has done with the AR system by changing the gas system, is still the best bet for reliability and usefulness.
Check out the H&K 416. http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm -
That's true. But the XM-8 was also essentially that - and more.Originally posted by LazerLordz:AFAIK, what H&K has done with the AR system by changing the gas system, is still the best bet for reliability and usefulness.
Check out the H&K 416. http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm
The Taiwanese have also made (what I think) their own piston-driven M-16 clone and had been on issue to their troops for quite a few years.
I have posted pics of this before. It's called the T-91.
DaveC also feel that it could be piston-driven.
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The XM-8 that HK was making was cancelled because other weapons companies was complaining that there wasnt an open bid for the project, instead it went to HK. So they no choice cancelled the project but i think they still have a running program to replace the M16 only now it's erm....open bidding?
HK is said to be still developing the weapon on it's own.
That's if i recall correctly haha -
It's possible that the XM-8 was cancelled and H&K shifted their resources towards the 416, which is less "concept" than "evolution".Originally posted by moca:That's true. But the XM-8 was also essentially that - and more.
The Taiwanese have also made (what I think) their own piston-driven M-16 clone and had been on issue to their troops for quite a few years.
I have posted pics of this before. It's called the T-91.
DaveC also feel that it could be piston-driven. -
Taiwanese always makes clones( and vastly improved clones) of US weapons.Originally posted by moca:That's true. But the XM-8 was also essentially that - and more.
The Taiwanese have also made (what I think) their own piston-driven M-16 clone and had been on issue to their troops for quite a few years.
I have posted pics of this before. It's called the T-91.
DaveC also feel that it could be piston-driven.
there was a pistol grip m14 that is far more controllable than the old style m14,
t65,t65k1,t65K2, t86,t91 , all m16 clones with gas piston.
so much for the xm8,g36 and HK416 , piston driven T series was like ...umm...
1976 tech? Taiwanese HAXOR FTW (thou the barrel is a bit inaccurate, its not chrome plated cold pressed extruded whatever.just a barrel)
and BTW, the forward assist was removed because...its useless in a piston driven m16 clone...redundant and adds to cost.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as82-e.htm
T91 weighs in at 2.9KG's.
edit, t65 IS gas driven, t65K2 isnt. -
Any idea where the SAR-21s are made? Australia?
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Erm...
Singapore. -
LOL. Yes they are made locally.
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Is the XM-8 is officially dead, or just put on hold?
the malaysian tested it. -
wats the foward assist?
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Originally posted by storm_freaky13:LOL. Yes they are made locally.
Where? -
any news bout the section marksman version? are local section marksmen still using M16S1 with scope? or switched to SAR21?
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i heard the 4 holes at the reciever invites dust and gunk inside IMHO.
some personel tape the 4 holes up to prevent junk from getting in.
guess the heat dispersion isnt very sound. -
Talking about what? The SAR or M-16 (which has many holes in the reciever)?
AFAIK, from my first had experience I had no issues with working with the SAR in the mud and dirt... it'll still work just fine.
Just don't get mud into your scope... like all other scopes. -
Hey, I got an idea to improve the SAR-21!
Redesigning the LAD such that, when turned on, it will only shine when the trigger is squeezed slightly. Easier to shoot and aim as well. -
nice idea...
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How about the ability for a left hand shooter and right hand shooter to shoot this rifle.! You can;t always be a right hand shooter because some people have natural left master eye!
DaveC -
STK!Originally posted by wonderamazement: Where?
5 Portsdown Road,
Singapore 139296
I believe they subcontract the parts to other engineering workshops. assembly shd be in STK.