What's wrong with the SAR-21?
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Wake up !! now is the 21th century already, any major gun that come out are all of very good standard due to the knowledge gain throught centuries...Originally posted by moca:This is a valid point, that maybe the only thing wrong with the SAR-21 is that it is made in Singapore and that we do not have enough clout in the global market.
Why didn't you just come right out and say this and instead talk a load of rubbish about bobo shooters and asking to "change the DAMNED shooter"?
You want to "damn" other people of course must call jesus lah.
You shoot a gun, miss the target - maybe in the musket days you still can blame the gun !!! Nowaday only poor shooter to blame !
By the way, that is some thing new - you damn people by shouting jesus !!! jesus is good and holy !! your thinking very screw up so have to forgive you for your nuts argument on the SAR-21 since even Jesus also use wrongly !!!
Totally hopeless !!! -
Woah hey look guys... take a chill pill.
I think you both actually understand each other's position... just that now egos are getting in the way and you are really fighting over the little bits and pieces.
I mean really, there are better things to discuss and do in here... not to mention more worthwhile... like wait for Glock to return from hiding and taking him apart once again.
At least that was productive in raising awareness and debating skill in the said topic among the forumites here... at Glock's expense of course.
Now shall we get back on topic... assuming any of us are still following it? -
Ok enough of talking about Jesus ! if Moca you want to talk about jesus please open another topic call "what wrong with calling jesus" I am sure Jesus will go there to drop you a line or two about not anyhow call him, he is too busy saving others in the world. Thank you.
What moca say about the wrong of SAR-21.
1) It is shorter, but heavier.
Not valid. There are version of SAR-21 that is light weight - got money got lighter ones .
2)It is more reliable, but many switches are in the wrong places.
How many switches on the SAR-21 ? Can someone please say !!! Wow one switch so difficult !!!
3) It is more compact for FIBUA, but mag change is slower.
Not valid . Already explain the changing of mag timing is not that significant, you are not doing western cowboy drawing of guns !!!
4) It has translucent mags, but you can't see the mag while shooting.
Not Valid. Kind of dumb if shooting you looking at target what how to see mag !!! Also all guns mag also have to turn a little to see see, what the different ?
5)It's got a scope, but the iron sights are crude.
Not valid . You shooting with scope what , iron sight is for backup .. if secondary - crude is ok , can shoot ok what, you want it beautify it is it .
6)Have they finally put a bayonet lug back on? Or do you use changkul when
SHTF?
Not valid. I see SAR-21 with bayonet, - maybe you are still using changkul for your own parade
out of 6 you got 5 totally invalid .... so what is there to argue ? -
Please... dear sir.Originally posted by storywolf:Ok enough of talking about Jesus ! if Moca you want to talk about jesus please open another topic call "what wrong with calling jesus" I am sure Jesus will go there to drop you a line or two about not anyhow call him, he is too busy saving others in the world. Thank you.
If you really are sincere about moving back on topic, then please do so without baiting for further argument.
You say you want to stop talking about jesus yet you mention jesus about 3 more times after that.
So, please, Storywolf, if you are sincere about getting on with the topic please do so like a grown up.
And Moca too, please, we all wear the same SAF uniform, if an argument do result please try to resolve it amicably and stop baiting each other. -
Originally posted by storywolf:
Just STFU.
Ok enough of talking about Jesus ! if Moca you want to talk about jesus please open another topic call "what wrong with calling jesus" I am sure Jesus will go there to drop you a line or two about not anyhow call him, he is too busy saving others in the world. Thank you.
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Man Daniel, you must be even more bored than me, to go and count the number of times it is mentionOriginally posted by Daniel-Lim:Please... dear sir.
If you really are sincere about moving back on topic, then please do so without baiting for further argument.
You say you want to stop talking about jesus yet you mention jesus about 3 more times after that.
So, please, Storywolf, if you are sincere about getting on with the topic please do so like a grown up.
And Moca too, please, we all wear the same SAF uniform, if an argument do result please try to resolve it amicably and stop baiting each other.
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Ok we stop it here, if not you be counting how many time moca say it also ! Then it will turn into seasame street ! -
Oh really?Originally posted by storywolf:Wake up !! now is the 21th century already, any major gun that come out are all of very good standard due to the knowledge gain throught centuries...
Erm... I can enlighten you with some very recent examples... but I'll just get some infuriatingly stupid arguments in return.
Better l let you continue yapping in your ignorant haze - it's more entertaining. -
Wanna stop?
I'll stop if you stop. -
YES, everybody stop!!!
No more insults, no more sarcastic reference back and forth etc. -
I'll tell you what I am bored with. It's all these arguments.Originally posted by storywolf:Man Daniel, you must be even more bored than me, to go and count the number of times it is mention .
Ok we stop it here, if not you be counting how many time moca say it also ! Then it will turn into seasame street !
You have said many times that you want to stop. But it is immediately follwed by a few sarcastic remarks.
Storywolf, let it go.
Moca, let it go. -
Yah, ok.
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Woah woah, save it for the REAL ignoramus when they come in making big statements without doing their homework or common sense!
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BTW storywolf, just that ONE switch is really quite inconvenient. Just fix that switch and i have no more complains haha.
btw i dont see how accepting stanmags is a step backwards. Of course i am not asking STK to use the Stanmags as the primary choice of magazine for the SAR. I just think that it would be good to have such redundancy features as a standard incorporated into the rifle. Would be great to be able to pick up mags on the ground during combat. -
Well, I'm grateful that at least the SAR21 ain't like the L85A1/A2 of our Brit friends. Imagine you chiong objective 1/2way mag drop. That one really hong kan. Besides, lets be objective, in a standard issue weapon for majority of the troops what counts ain't the gizmos or high-tech crap that goes into it,in my humble opinion, its the reliability, ease of user operation and cost per unit.
If you ask me, I would take a brand-less, absolutely reliable weapon that I can bury in 6 feet of sand, dig it up 1mth later and still be able to shoot straight with it w/o IAs, immerse in water for a week, take it out, clear it of water and fire straight, and have the weapon run over by say a Land Rover and still be able to function. A weapon that is also idiot-proof to the user without sacrifice to its killing ability and lastly it being so cheap to manufacture that there can be 3 rifles for every 2 soldiers sorta ratio
Lastly...we gotta face it man...life ain't perfect, you would still take whatever works every time over what is proven in combat hi-tech crap that perhaps works 70-99% of the time? -
I wonder if a better STANMAG can be made?Originally posted by storm_freaky13:BTW storywolf, just that ONE switch is really quite inconvenient. Just fix that switch and i have no more complains haha.
btw i dont see how accepting stanmags is a step backwards. Of course i am not asking STK to use the Stanmags as the primary choice of magazine for the SAR. I just think that it would be good to have such redundancy features as a standard incorporated into the rifle. Would be great to be able to pick up mags on the ground during combat.
For example, can they make a polymer STANMAG? I guess the answer if probably no cos if can they would've made one by now. -
I was thinking about the L85 when Storywolf gave all modern firearms his stamp of approval.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Well, I'm grateful that at least the SAR21 ain't like the L85A1/A2 of our Brit friends. Imagine you chiong objective 1/2way mag drop. That one really hong kan.
All the British Army's L85 recently went through a massive rebuilding by H&K costing millions of pounds. The cost of rebuilding them could've easily bought new weapons but British pride obviously frowned on that option.
Besides this example, we also got India's INSAS, which the Nepalese declared as crap even though they were given free.
The INSAS is the worst of the lot as it literally falls apart with all kinds of internal and external parts breaking.
QUOTE FROM INDIA TIMES: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1245199981.cms
"major defects in assault rifles as well as light machine guns like change lever system, breakage of carrying handle, screw locking butt, crack of retainer and breakage of barrel bulge have come to the fore from forward areas," top army officials said."
Reading the whole article makes you want to weep.
And India is now in the process of replacing the INSAS with TAR-21 and AK-47.
Closer to home we have the Aussie and Malaysian-made Steyr AUGs with the usual reports of melting plastics and ejection failure etc. The Malaysians have decided upon a costly replacement with IMPORTED M-4s. I don't have the full report but they must be pretty bad for them to make such a decision.
The fate of the Aussie's Steyrs remains to be seen but universally - including the Kiwis whom were also supplied with this weapon - the feedbacks point to severe disatisfaction.
Even Dave C reports from the US that his Austrian-made Steyr AUG once had a cartrdge jammed or eat into the plastic or something.
Which should give us a lot of reasons to be proud of STK. At least our stuff don't fall apart!!!
Erm... I think you are describing the AK-47 - Russian and European-made AKs, mind you.Originally posted by SpecOps87:If you ask me, I would take a brand-less, absolutely reliable weapon that I can bury in 6 feet of sand, dig it up 1mth later and still be able to shoot straight with it w/o IAs, immerse in water for a week, take it out, clear it of water and fire straight, and have the weapon run over by say a Land Rover and still be able to function. A weapon that is also idiot-proof to the user without sacrifice to its killing ability and lastly it being so cheap to manufacture that there can be 3 rifles for every 2 soldiers sorta ratio -
Not necessary that...I'm just quoting an example lah. Besides, I'm certain Glocks and H&Ks can do that. The Glocks were even able to be buried in snow. Thats what I call reliability.Originally posted by moca:Erm... I think you are describing the AK-47 - Russian and European-made AKs, mind you. -
i think the weapon u desire has just been created..Originally posted by SpecOps87:Not necessary that...I'm just quoting an example lah. Besides, I'm certain Glocks and H&Ks can do that. The Glocks were even able to be buried in snow. Thats what I call reliability.
go to you tube and search for future weapons HK416. it does almost what u described. -
The problem is that the metal used for the STANMAG is too thin, hence denting to the lips and stuff will happen if you are not careful in the field and there will be a failure to feed.Originally posted by moca:I wonder if a better STANMAG can be made?
For example, can they make a polymer STANMAG? I guess the answer if probably no cos if can they would've made one by now.
This can't be solved with thicker metals for the STANMAG will then not fit most weapons, and polymer mags require a minimum thickness before they can be reliable... we can't make a mag out of polymer with the same thickness as the metal used in the STANMAG.
So haiz, what to do? I suppose they can use stronger, better metals... but the cost and weight will skyrocket... no surprise why some armies choose to do away with it entirely. -
Closer to home we have the Aussie and Malaysian-made Steyr AUGs with the usual reports of melting plastics and ejection failure etc. The Malaysians have decided upon a costly replacement with IMPORTED M-4s. I don't have the full report but they must be pretty bad for them to make such a decision.
Weird, cos I haven't heard much junk from the Aussies about their Styer... I mean until it started to be license manufactured there were no real issues about its reliability.
The Malaysian problems, as many have speculated... were due to their own inability to manufacture the weapons up to the proper standards.
AFAIK, the SAR-21s are nearly grunt-proof. Nearly because nothing is grunt-proof. They certainly can take more then your fair shair of bumps and knocks more then your M-16 without an issue- which is something considering it has a scope to take care of.
The only two SARs I heard of being seriously damaged by their grunts involved a friend's fellow Cadet who cooked his SAR accidently when he let it slip into a campfire while he was asleep, melting the butt and another grunt that apparently slammed his weapon hard enough to crack the scope.
On the other hand, my friend once threw his SAR in fustration after failing SOC, and the thing was fine. -
Those 2 never kena sign 1206?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:The only two SARs I heard of being seriously damaged by their grunts involved a friend's fellow Cadet who cooked his SAR accidently when he let it slip into a campfire while he was asleep, melting the butt and another grunt that apparently slammed his weapon hard enough to crack the scope. -
Sign, sign unti sianz zhi puah.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Those 2 never kena sign 1206? -
With all these flamings, maybe the mod will do wise to close this thread up?
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You all ask me to let go of that fish and I let go of that fish already !!!
But why why it still want to mention my name !
Forget it, call all you want fish ! Gone fishing already - busy cooking fish now !!!
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Ooi... people a bit slow you dun have to reply and add to it rite?
Oops, why I reply ah?