What's wrong with the SAR-21?
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Ney, I tested them many times before. They are SPOT ON out to 100, still working up to 200, and beyond that you are better off using the scope anyway (actually you ought to use the scope as and when you can).
The 1st versions didnt have iron sights at all.
If I recall some of the early SAR marks actually had a fully functioning set of iron sights... but it was determined that this added redundancy was better adressed with a far simpler, and more reliable set of open pistol-style iron sights. And the sights work... though putting green dots to allow night shooting through them would be great.
The ppl trialing those weapons complained and they put them in.
Then there were complains about how those sights cant be zero-ed so they allowed them to be......
I had friends who were trying the SAR 21 out. They loved the scope though hah.
Dunno how it is like now though. -
How very simple-minded of you.Originally posted by storywolf:The way I see it the wrong with the SAR-21 is the user who complain !!!
Change the damn user !!! and you will have a good rifle.
Give him any gun - cannot shoot mean cannot shoot !!!
Give him any gun - slow loading what ever gun - he also will load slower then others !!!
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Well, thankfully, STK is not led by someone like Storywolf but continues to listen and make adjustmentsOriginally posted by |-|05|:The 1st versions didnt have iron sights at all.
The ppl trialing those weapons complained and they put them in.
Then there were complains about how those sights cant be zero-ed so they allowed them to be......
I had friends who were trying the SAR 21 out. They loved the scope though hah.
Dunno how it is like now though. -
Actually I think its quite true, from my experience with air rifles in school to rifles and pistol in the army, I have never seen anyone go from a wowo to a marksman, those who struggle will always struggle. Heard from friends who are in Sar21 units that they still have wowo shooters despite having a scope.Originally posted by moca:How very simple-minded of you. -
The 1st versions didnt have iron sights at all.
I think your info a bit outdated leh... the first production run of the SAR for main SAF use HAD the backup iron sights (actually most scoped weapons have a backup sight of some sort). It seems the modifications made in response to the feedback was to make them stockier and more durable.
The ppl trialing those weapons complained and they put them in.
Then there were complains about how those sights cant be zero-ed so they allowed them to be......
I had friends who were trying the SAR 21 out. They loved the scope though hah.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again, these backup sights work very well, and in fact they are easier to use then the M-16 iron sights (though probably not as precise)! They are good at 100m, and still usable at 200m... though you might as well use the scope at that range.Actually I think its quite true, from my experience with air rifles in school to rifles and pistol in the army, I have never seen anyone go from a wowo to a marksman, those who struggle will always struggle. Heard from friends who are in Sar21 units that they still have wowo shooters despite having a scope.
Well from my experience training soldiers to use both the SAR and M-16, you will still get wowo shooters in both weapons. There will just be some shooters who no matter how much you coach them or teach them or give them as many aids... are simply unable to use any kind of a firearm. For some reason they just can't do it.
HOWEVER it is clear that the wowo rates are certianly much less then the M-16, mainly due to the simpler handling egronomics of the SAR, and the scope as well, which takes out a lot of the sight picture work that you get with the M-16 iron sights, which some soldiers just don't get.
Inability to use iron sights accounts for quite a bit of WOWO shooters and the SAR-21 converts this batch into proper shooters. -
Why not talk about the difficulty involved in teaching the blind or the retarded to shoot?Originally posted by playtime:Actually I think its quite true, from my experience with air rifles in school to rifles and pistol in the army, I have never seen anyone go from a wowo to a marksman, those who struggle will always struggle. Heard from friends who are in Sar21 units that they still have wowo shooters despite having a scope. -
Woah, woah take a chill pill guys... it's obvious we need to see both sides of the issue sensibly. I'll just give my two cents worth from my experience in coaching the greenhorns to shoot.Originally posted by moca:Why not talk about the difficulty involved in teaching the blind or the retarded to shoot?
Shooting is not a skill that comes naturally to everybody, however it is possible to train somebody to become a good shooter. I believe most people fall into this group. The make of the firearm as well as the features can make this job easier or tougher.
However, there are indeed some people that no expense of effort can transform them into reliable shooters. For some reason they just can't seem to grasp the fundementals... and certainly not quickly enough in the timeframe we usually have in the two to three months of BMT (not all of which is spent on BTP) to transform them into good shooters.
The SAR-21 certainly cuts down on the number of non-combat effective shooters by turning marginal shooters into competent ones. Usually these are the ones who for some reason can't figure out how to get a proper sight picture with iron sights. So that improvement for the SAF is certainly quite material. -
We are talking about improving the SAR-21.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:However, there are indeed some people that no expense of effort can transform them into reliable shooters.
What has this to do with hopeless shooters? -
Good question, how did we end up on this anyway?Originally posted by moca:We are talking about improving the SAR-21.
What has this to do with hopeless shooters?
Oh wait... storywolf
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LOLOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Good question, how did we end up on this anyway?
Oh wait... storywolf 
improving the SAR-21 in short.
Relocate fire-selector
Ability to use stanmags (i think they did it if im not mistaken)
improve the iron sights.
lose weight? (not an issue to me) -
isnt it becoming like the TAR-21??Originally posted by storm_freaky13:LOL
improving the SAR-21 in short.
Relocate fire-selector
Ability to use stanmags (i think they did it if im not mistaken)
improve the iron sights.
lose weight? (not an issue to me)
hmm... -
Lol, I'll defer on the stanmags thou... would be a step backwards. Export versions have the option to use them though.
Agree on the fire selector, but as long as it does not compromise reliability.
Wouldn't mind them puting tritium or some similar stuff on the backup sights to make them groovy for night shooting.
Of course that is my wishlist for the standard, mass-produced SAR-21 version.
If you are talking about getting the best SAR regardless of per unit cost, logistics and long term field-viability (no worry about keeping electronics in working condition and stuff) and all that stuff, here is my wishlist:
P-Rail with the very expensive but cool MARS sight, which comes with an LAD as well... though have to make it IR-capable hor.
And of course, other cool ninja stuff etc etc.
Actually come to think of it... really hor, there's not much to tinker with the weapon. In the end what the grunt needs is a weapon that is reliable, hits what it shoots at , and is easy to keep going in the field. -
Strategic value , technical value , monetary value , effectiveness and effeciency value..
u guys forgot about.. the Kang Tao value. -
If you shoot to miss !!! Rambo will tell you he can bring his M-60 and shoot faster but miss also !!!Originally posted by justcooler:Tested on a 300m range, M16 always has the first shot.
but agree, the shot may not be on target.
You shoot to kill not to shoot to miss !!! With a scope that is 1.5x .... it is just very little slower, but with so much better result. As the scope increase ... time get it get worst.
Both M16 & SAR-21 - because of their design, the shooting and aquiring is almost the same more on the training. At 400m to 300m, why would anyone want to think of cowboy style of draw and shoot ? - you be wanting the most staple position to get the shot as for the long distance - which is prone or some other position that which is not depend on draw and shoot, but skill.
In theory, at closer distance the bullpup is quicker in draw in buildup area. -
simple minded - but true !!! shooting is about shooting straight (simple) and not bullet hit wall, then bounce another wall and hit target ( complex) !!!Originally posted by moca:How very simple-minded of you.
Actually shooting is a very simple minded thing. based on some very basic common sense.
A good shooter, be it HK36, SAR-21 , M16 , with zeroing - he will still shoot well. Regardless of weight, shape and others.
If lousy shooter give him any good rifle, he still will not !!! even guidance bullets also no use is he aim offsight !!!
If you understand the basic of shooting and got it, you will be a good shooter, if you don't too bad - that it.
Face the fact - a good runner will still be a good runner regardless of shoe he wear, maybe a little variances in performance. Give a lousy runner the best shoe in the world whatever nike or whatever, he may improve a little, but will never be a great runner because of the shoe !
If you get car accident - you blame the other driver or you blame his car ? -
Yep I am sure the teacher will have better luck in them than in you !!!Originally posted by moca:Why not talk about the difficulty involved in teaching the blind or the retarded to shoot?
Are we talking about improving it ? hello then you in wrong topic - look at the title - what is wrong about it !! not improving it ! - basically some people here are just condemning it for the wrong reason.
If you are suggesting improvement, to it - I am also looking but from another angle. To a big size guy - the weight is just right ? to a small size guy the weight is too heavy ... are we going to discuss about small improvement that can make the rifle just very little better.
A good rifle with small area of improvement - is very different from a bad rifle that need improvement ! From some of the argument - of small improvement which is good to have - they make it sound like it is a major fault !
Please do not condem a very good rifle and give false impression to others just because it have some small area to improve. Also there bear in mind the fact that because some of you are train in M16 and got use to it, just because bullpup is different , doesn't not mean that it is wrong or need improve. -
Not sure what some people mean by at 300m the M-16 gets off the first shot.
From my personal experience, there is no big difference in the amount of time it takes to aquire your targets.
Depends on your skill on the different sighting systems as well... some people not used to the scope might take longer to aquire a target with it then with iron sights. Conversion distress could be a big factor behind it... especially if it was a previous M-16 shooter converting to the SAR.
But of course, all things considered... getting your bead on a target with a 1.5x scope is a lot faster then iron sights, once you get used to it. Combat zeroing is also much more simplified. -
Originally posted by storywolf:The way I see it the wrong with the SAR-21 is the user who complain !!!
Change the damn user !!! and you will have a good rifle.
Jesus. How many times do you want to explain this logic about bobo shooters?Originally posted by storywolf:Not simple minded - but true !!!
Actually shooting is a very simple minded thing. based on some very basic common sense.
A good shooter, be it HK36, SAR-21 , M16 , with zeroing - he will still shoot well. Regardless of weight, shape and others.
If lousy shooter give him any good rifle, he still will not !!! even guidance bullets also no use is he aim offsight !!!
If you understand the basic of shooting and got it, you will be a good shooter, if you don't too bad - that it.
The point of this thread you don't seem to get is:
Is the SAR-21 perfect?
THis thread was started because people are buying all other AR except the SAR-21. Now can we offer some opinions as to how to improve this product so that STK can get some sales in future?
You can answer "yes the SAR-21 is already perfect" and if that's your opinion then we respect it. If not, have any suggestions as to what STK should do?
It's that simple. Why all this repeat BS about can shoot means can shoot blah blah blah...
Singapore is still a place where opinions are respected. STK, is a company that listens to its customers.
So don't come here and tell people they can't have an opinion about a product. If they do they must be incompetent etc.
I so xxxking hate this kind of attitude. THIS IS A FRICKING FORUM. IF YOU CAN'T HAVE OPINIONS HERE WITHOUT SOMEONE TELLING YOU OFF THEN WHERE THE FXXK CAN YOU HAVE OPINIONS?
IF you don't agree, state your points like everyone else instead of being a boor and just tell people NOT TO MAKE COMMENTS/COMPLAINTS. -
Here's another example.
Even SAF listens to opinions of its soldiers.
During the 80's, SAF wanted to switch over to the CIS SAR-80.
Some soldiers trial the weapons and came back with feedback that they didn't like it, it was too heavy etc... You can call it opinions, or you can call it complaints.
But...
SAF LISTENED, and did not force the implementation.
SAF didn't tell the soldiers off by saying "cannot shoot means cannot shoot so don't complain blah blah blah." -
Wow call jesus already .... this forum is ok so many people come to post - must be ok - I do not find it "Fricking" seem you are the only one that find it "fricking".Originally posted by moca:Jesus. How many times do you want to explain this logic about bobo shooters?
The point of this thread you don't seem to get is:
Is the SAR-21 perfect?
THis thread was started because people are buying all other AR except the SAR-21. Now can we offer some opinions as to how to improve this product so that STK can get some sales in future?
You can answer "yes the SAR-21 is already perfect" and if that's your opinion then we respect it. If not, have any suggestions as to what STK should do?
It's that simple. Why all this repeat BS about can shoot means can shoot blah blah blah...
Singapore is still a place where opinions are respected. STK, is a company that listens to its customers.
So don't come here and tell people they can't have an opinion about a product. If they do they must be incompetent etc.
I so xxxking hate this kind of attitude. THIS IS A FRICKING FORUM. IF YOU CAN'T HAVE OPINIONS HERE WITHOUT SOMEONE TELLING YOU OFF THEN WHERE THE FXXK CAN YOU HAVE OPINIONS?
IF you don't agree, state your points like everyone else instead of being a boor and just tell people NOT TO MAKE COMMENTS/COMPLAINTS.
If you are the only one that find it "fricking" then the problem must be yourself !
I did not say just because people have an opinion about a product, they must be incompetent ! I am just showing another view - which is maybe the user do not know how to use the product proper - user fault !
Maybe in this case the user is shooting with a SAR-21, while all the time, he is call jesus and xxking here and fxxking there, he fail to hit the target - yep SAR-21 is at fault or Jesus was wrong in not answer his yelling !
Ok is it fair for you to say because people buying AR- instead of SAR-21 = it no good ? Did you stop to think that people buying it because it is dirt cheap - face the fact no matter how you improve it they will still be buying AR ! You can list out all the improvement suggested by everyone in this forum, and change it , still they will not be buying SAR-21.
The fact is if the objective is to sell it like AR - simple - something that no one have suggest yet - change it t to "MADE In USA" "made in Russia" "Made in china" . After that it will sell like hot cakes and Moca will then call it a good rifle because people buying it like AR - all because of changing a few words - yes folks, "the Pen is mightier than the sword" ! -
SAF didn't tell the soldier off by saying "cannot shoot means cannot shoot so don't complain" .... that is because they think like me - think outside the circle.Originally posted by moca:Here's another example.
Even SAF listens to opinions of its soldiers.
During the 80's, SAF wanted to switch over to the CIS SAR-80.
Some soldiers trial the weapons and came back with feedback that they didn't like it, it was too heavy etc... You can call it opinions, or you can call it complaints.
But...
SAF LISTENED, and did not force the implementation.
SAF didn't tell the soldiers off by saying "cannot shoot means cannot shoot so don't complain blah blah blah."
SAF know wowo soldiers cannot zero mean cannot zero ! SAF instead of thinking how to teach them better to zero which waste time and not that effective. They think out of the scope which is why not no zeroing ! They come out with SAR-21 with special scope which does not need zeroing !!! Thanks for proving my point !
SAF yes do listen, but they think like me ! -
This is a valid point, that maybe the only thing wrong with the SAR-21 is that it is made in Singapore and that we do not have enough clout in the global market.Originally posted by storywolf:Ok is it fair for you to say because people buying AR- instead of SAR-21 = it no good ? Did you stop to think that people buying it because it is dirt cheap - face the fact no matter how you improve it they will still be buying AR ! You can list out all the improvement suggested by everyone in this forum, and change it , still they will not be buying SAR-21.
Why didn't you just come right out and say this and instead talk a load of rubbish about bobo shooters and asking to "change the DAMNED shooter"?
You want to "damn" other people of course must call jesus lah. -
Yes, but you are outside the wrong circle.Originally posted by storywolf:SAF ... think like me - think outside the circle. -
double
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Not production modelsOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Well from my experience training soldiers to use both the SAR and M-16, you will still get wowo shooters in both weapons. There will just be some shooters who no matter how much you coach them or teach them or give them as many aids... are simply unable to use any kind of a firearm. For some reason they just can't do it.
HOWEVER it is clear that the wowo rates are certianly much less then the M-16, mainly due to the simpler handling egronomics of the SAR, and the scope as well, which takes out a lot of the sight picture work that you get with the M-16 iron sights, which some soldiers just don't get.
Inability to use iron sights accounts for quite a bit of WOWO shooters and the SAR-21 converts this batch into proper shooters.
more like the 1st series produced for testing
hahha my news was like 2001 man