What's wrong with the SAR-21?
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Able to reload quickly is vital in fire fight. If you are familar with the 16Originally posted by storm_freaky13:mag release catch is designed for one hand operation. It just needs getting used to.
I do agree with you on the fire selector. Awkwardly placed.
till the weapon to the side if the mag release is obstructed
index finger of master hand tap on the release catch, while another hand getting the mag ready.
Once fresh mag in, ease spring and you are ready
problem with older weapon and mag is no feeding, which is common in training schools.
SAR will take longer, but as what you have said, it will be up to the operator's experience level -
Shall we instigate a war then, and supply some arms?
not war silly.... conflict
and not suplying arm .... but suplying agricultural equptment and small arms to protect the equipment.
renamed the SAR to bee millitary surplus. -
Originally posted by tankfanatic:not war silly.... conflict
and not suplying arm .... but suplying agricultural equptment and small arms to protect the equipment.
renamed the SAR to bee millitary surplus.
sorry, I don't speak like those snakes at the White House.. I'm very direct..
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Able to reload quickly is good but it is not as vital as basic good riflemanship - that is shoot on target & ability to control your rounds and know how many rounds you still have.Originally posted by justcooler:Able to reload quickly is vital in fire fight. If you are familar with the 16
till the weapon to the side if the mag release is obstructed
index finger of master hand tap on the release catch, while another hand getting the mag ready.
Once fresh mag in, ease spring and you are ready
problem with older weapon and mag is no feeding, which is common in training schools.
SAR will take longer, but as what you have said, it will be up to the operator's experience level
That is why better train soldiers are trained to count their rounds, so they will know how estimate how many rounds they still have and plan their changing of mag in advance .
With proper training the changing of mag can be as fast as M16 - just some getting used to. -
Truth is, if you are in a firefight and need to reload, you ought to have found good enough cover that gives you more then enough time to do the action and more. I think far more people are killed by IAing weapons or not being able to shoot well then being unable to reload quickly enough. Lets not even talk, about the Yankie M249 gunners who have to mess with a belt system!And they are using such a thing on the squad level!
It's really your tatics in battle that determine all this rather then how many miliseconds you can shave off doing certian actions- granted these actions must be done in a reasonable time frame but beyond that it hardly makes sense to nitpick unless your tatics somehow rely heavily on reloading as quickly as possible... but I really can't think of any.
In terms of time taken, it is obvious you can never reload a bullpup as quickly as a conventional system. But the difference is really marginal and certainly not enough to put any competent soldier's life in danger... a reason why most of the latest rifle designs have been bullpups. Personally the magazine system of the SAR is a great leap forward in reliability over the older metal mags, polymer mags are the way to go man and they should really come up with a standard for it for all nations to use.
If you really don't want to worry about reload issues, try a C-Mag instead. -
It a branding issues...
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Tested on a 300m range, M16 always has the first shot.Originally posted by storywolf:Able to reload quickly is good but it is not as vital as basic good riflemanship - that is shoot on target & ability to control your rounds and know how many rounds you still have.
That is why better train soldiers are trained to count their rounds, so they will know how estimate how many rounds they still have and plan their changing of mag in advance .
With proper training the changing of mag can be as fast as M16 - just some getting used to.
but agree, the shot may not be on target. -
enough of the reload time already, its really armchair unless other realities are taken into account. The physical problems with a longer rifle of conventional layout is enough to cancel out the reloading time advantages it has over a bullpup of same barrel length.
Getting in/out of say a landrover/tonner/anything in a hurry is faster with a bullpup.
Firing from any confined space is easier with a bullpup.
Firemovement (anymovement) anywhere (spaces/obstacles) is easier with a bullpup.
Day to day routine is easier with a bullpup than a long rifle.
All these things can get you killed as easily as reloading time. -
What do you mean by having the first shot? You mean the time taken to squeeze the trigger? Seems very nitpicky to meOriginally posted by justcooler:Tested on a 300m range, M16 always has the first shot.
but agree, the shot may not be on target.
But naturally it's hard to outshoot a person of similar skill at 300 meters if he has a scope and you are using iron sights. -
I have no doubt that the above drill you outlined is faster then the current drill being taught for the SAR-21. Although I'm not quite sure that that was the M-16 reload drill that was last taught ... I'm quite sure, however, that it's not the same as the reload drill I was taught when I was serving ages agoOriginally posted by justcooler:Able to reload quickly is vital in fire fight. If you are familar with the 16
till the weapon to the side if the mag release is obstructed
index finger of master hand tap on the release catch, while another hand getting the mag ready.
Once fresh mag in, ease spring and you are ready
SAR will take longer, but as what you have said, it will be up to the operator's experience level
The M-16 reload drill went something like this, IIRC,
i) right hand index finger operates magazine release catch
ii) left hand retrieves ejected magazine and returns to pouch
iii) left hand extracts fresh mag and inserts in magazine housing
iv) left hand slaps bolt release catch
v) tilt weapon and check bolt seating
vi) carry on ...
In essence the main difference between the drill you've outlined and the one above is in the dropping/retrieving of the empty magazine. I have no doubt that if you let the magazine simply drop to the floor the drill will be faster but I'd hate to be the grunt who does that. Imagine this soldier during resupp, when his combat train delivers 50-rnd cardboard boxes and he realises that he's left a trail of 30-rnd magazines strewn somewhere in the jungle behind him ... the expression on his face? Priceless
The practice of dropping the empty mag and the time saved may work for CT troopers doing CQB/Hostage rescue but certainly doesn't work for a soldier within the context of sound practices for an Army as a whole.
I remember also seeing a video of an ADF MOUT training session where one of the troopers executed an IA drill on the Steyr ... the speed of the execution was most certainly as fast as most M-16 drills I've seen ... Bullpup and thumb release catch notwithstanding. As highlighted by quite a few, the issues with the SAR-21 is more a matter of conversion distress than actual poor weapon design. Users converting from M-16s to SAR-21s sometimes find it hard to overcome ingrained reflexes and as is human, diss the weapon unfairly. Practice and familiarity with the weapon should overcome this.
With regards to the thumb release catch that some find awkward, it may be interesting to note that most assault rifles in use do not feature a M-16 style mag release button but instead have a thumb release catch similar to the one on the SAR-21. Take a look at all the FNs, HKs, AKs and what have you out there ... they all use the thumb release catch. In fact for most CT troops where speed is everything, the weapon of choice is the MP5, which also uses the thumb release instead of the m-16 style finger release ... surely that must mean something?
On an aside, one of the advantage of a thumb release catch is that it is truly ambidextrous, which means simplified weapons training as the drill is the same for both LH and RH firers. I'd daresay that most weapons designed for the Generic Infantry make such compromises on sacrificing a bit of gucci go-faster for something as bland as ease of training and logistics.
So yeah ... enough of the speed of reload thing already ... unless you're some kinda specwarrie wannabe
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Yes, when I did my life fire and movement drills both with the M-16 and the SAR-21... I did not experience any real difficulty with the reloads in either system.
Obviously the combat loading system of the M-16 is faster, with the ease spring and such but at the end of the day the time difference was pretty marginal and it certainly wasn't any kind of difference that slowed down the pace of our fire and movement.
So yeah, in the end it's down to the grunt to make the best of what he has of his tools. -
MP5 also have a "M16" style mag release on the right.Originally posted by kotay:In fact for most CT troops where speed is everything, the weapon of choice is the MP5, which also uses the thumb release instead of the m-16 style finger release ... surely that must mean something? -
True ... but a further redesign of the MP5 for 10mm and 0.40S&W calibres have dropped the right side mag release button leaving only the paddle style mag release lever ... what would this indicate?
The design of the MP5 trigger group and magazine release (indirectly inherited from the CETME/G3) resulted in the right side mag release button being somewhat further from the pistol grip than what a typical m16 user would be accustomed to. What this means is that in actual use, quite a fair bit of users are unable to operate the mag release button without removing their trigger hand from the pistol grip. The primary method of magazine release still remains the lever, with the button as a secondary backup. YMMV.
The original design decision in the MP5 for 2 methods of magazine release was more for redundancy than any particular ergonomic advantage of the M-16 style release button. Moreover, this redundant design feature, found in the CETME/G3/MP5, is of the same design era as the M16 and most certainly predates the popular era of the M16, which IMO precludes any influence by the M16 design on the CETME/G3/MP5. When H&K redesigned the MP5 to accept 10mm and 0.40S&W calibres, they dropped the redundancy to simplify manufacturing, retained the release lever and indirectly acknowledging the poor implementation of the mag release button.
Don't believe me? Have a read at this ... http://www.interordnance.com/library/HK%20MP5%20manual.pdf at round about page 20 onwards
Cheers! -
Originally posted by kotay:
What justcooler mentioned was taught to us at BMT under combat loading. Which we practice but don't do in actual range. As its name suggests its only done in combat, cos chances are, we won't be taking our own sweet time to insert an emptied mag into our SBO pouches.
I have no doubt that the above drill you outlined is faster then the current drill being taught for the SAR-21. Although I'm not quite sure that that was the M-16 reload drill that was last taught ... I'm quite sure, however, that it's not the same as the reload drill I was taught when I was serving ages ago
The M-16 reload drill went something like this, IIRC,
i) right hand index finger operates magazine release catch
ii) left hand retrieves ejected magazine and returns to pouch
iii) left hand extracts fresh mag and inserts in magazine housing
iv) left hand slaps bolt release catch
v) tilt weapon and check bolt seating
vi) carry on ...
In essence the main difference between the drill you've outlined and the one above is in the dropping/retrieving of the empty magazine. I have no doubt that if you let the magazine simply drop to the floor the drill will be faster but I'd hate to be the grunt who does that. Imagine this soldier during resupp, when his combat train delivers 50-rnd cardboard boxes and he realises that he's left a trail of 30-rnd magazines strewn somewhere in the jungle behind him ... the expression on his face? Priceless
The practice of dropping the empty mag and the time saved may work for CT troopers doing CQB/Hostage rescue but certainly doesn't work for a soldier within the context of sound practices for an Army as a whole.
I remember also seeing a video of an ADF MOUT training session where one of the troopers executed an IA drill on the Steyr ... the speed of the execution was most certainly as fast as most M-16 drills I've seen ... Bullpup and thumb release catch notwithstanding. As highlighted by quite a few, the issues with the SAR-21 is more a matter of conversion distress than actual poor weapon design. Users converting from M-16s to SAR-21s sometimes find it hard to overcome ingrained reflexes and as is human, diss the weapon unfairly. Practice and familiarity with the weapon should overcome this.
With regards to the thumb release catch that some find awkward, it may be interesting to note that most assault rifles in use do not feature a M-16 style mag release button but instead have a thumb release catch similar to the one on the SAR-21. Take a look at all the FNs, HKs, AKs and what have you out there ... they all use the thumb release catch. In fact for most CT troops where speed is everything, the weapon of choice is the MP5, which also uses the thumb release instead of the m-16 style finger release ... surely that must mean something?
On an aside, one of the advantage of a thumb release catch is that it is truly ambidextrous, which means simplified weapons training as the drill is the same for both LH and RH firers. I'd daresay that most weapons designed for the Generic Infantry make such compromises on sacrificing [b]a bit of gucci go-faster for something as bland as ease of training and logistics.
So yeah ... enough of the speed of reload thing already ... unless you're some kinda specwarrie wannabe[/b]
The M-16 mags are meant to be disposable in war, but not in peace time training. Your drill is the proper drill to be carried out in peace time operation of the M-16. =) -
To be fair you won't find me picking up mags and putting them back into my ammo pouch in the heat of battle.
Mags however, are not certainly meant to be disposable... just expendable if needs be. Certainly a good SOP would be to gather back all your mags once the action is over.
But yeah, as it comes to it there's not really a significant time difference in what it takes to reload a bullpup with a thumb catch then a conventional. Truth is if you're trying to outreload your opponent to shoot him before he shoots you, you are pretty screwed and shouldn't have gotten into that thing in the first place.
In that case, it would be better to duck or run away, melee, or switch to your sidearm if you have one. All a lot better then reloading to save your life... that only happens in FPS games. -
Fair enough ... I don't remember being taught that but maybe I forget.Originally posted by Shotgun:What justcooler mentioned was taught to us at BMT under combat loading. Which we practice but don't do in actual range. As its name suggests its only done in combat, cos chances are, we won't be taking our own sweet time to insert an emptied mag into our SBO pouches.
The M-16 mags are meant to be disposable in war, but not in peace time training. Your drill is the proper drill to be carried out in peace time operation of the M-16. =)
It does raise an issue though ... why the hell would we train differently an essential drill like this for peace and war? Shouldn't we be training for war? It is quite a stretch to expect soldiers to change an instinctive drill ingrained by years of repetition to something else because "Gentlemen, We are at WAR!" ???
Maybe the log chain has changed since my time
We were drilled that mag supply was finite and that resupp will be in stripper clips (rather than the loose round boxes) and very rarely pre-filled mags. As such, do not ever lose your mags ... so we trained as we were meant to fight.
I found the most expedient method was just to simply chuck the empties down the front of my No.4 and sort it out during the re-org.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:To be fair you won't find me picking up mags and putting them back into my ammo pouch in the heat of battle.
Proning down did get a bit uncomfortable though
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who knows, maybe resup during war would come in crates of loaded magazines. i heard a rumour that there's such a machine that loads rounds like SUPER fast. makes sense too
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Could this be the reason why most specfors around the world don't use bullpups?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:But yeah, as it comes to it there's not really a significant time difference in what it takes to reload a bullpup with a thumb catch then a conventional. Truth is if you're trying to outreload your opponent to shoot him before he shoots you, you are pretty screwed and shouldn't have gotten into that thing in the first place.
You can change a mag on the M16 in a few quick simple steps without taking the weapon off your shoulder or the direction of the threat.
I've never touched the SAR-21, but I imagine it requires taking your weapon off your firing stance and a bit of fumbling? Anyone has any problems with the supposedly badly placed switches?
It is easy to imagine a FIBUA or even FOFO bunker scenario where the minute you pull out an empty mag from your weapon or tear open your ammo pouch, the enemy already knows you are changing mags. So every fraction of a second counts.
The SAR-21 has translucent mags so that you can learn not to empty your mag before changing.
This is helpful.
BUT...
The mag is not visible to you unless you take the weapon off target to check.
So, LPPL. -
IMO, though the SAR-21 is not a bad weapon, it takes something away for everything else that it brings to the table.
It is shorter, but heavier.
It is more reliable, but many switches are in the wrong places.
It is more compact for FIBUA, but mag change is slower.
It has translucent mags, but you can't see the mag while shooting.
It's got a scope, but the iron sights are crude.
Have they finally put a bayonet lug back on? Or do you use changkul when SHTF? -
Well, I believe that you have the same problem even with weapons such as the G36. As you still have to tilt your head to the side or bring your weapon forward and to the right to visually verify the number of rounds you have left.Originally posted by moca:It has translucent mags, but you can't see the mag while shooting. -
I guess thats what they mean by changing times.Originally posted by kotay:I found the most expedient method was just to simply chuck the empties down the front of my No.4 and sort it out during the re-org.
Proning down did get a bit uncomfortable though
We don't use combat loading during live range due to safety, and the fact that there is a pause between the different shooting stances. So its good practice for us to check that our empty mags are really empty, and check clear our weapon.
In combat, it is
1. Unrealistic to expect the soldier to stow away his empty magazine when under fire when it is more important to return fire and move.
2. Unrealistic to expect the soldier to pick up his empty magazine when he's under fire.
What is important, is being able to maintain high volume of fire and movement towards, or away from the enemy. Anything that does not directly/indirectly contribute to that, is should not be considered as important.
Besides, it feels more cool to do a combat load anyways! =D -
Not that I want to nitpick, but here's my take on what it brings to the grunt and takes away from the previous M-16.
It is shorter, but heavier.
Accounting for the extra features of scope and LAD, yes. But then again isn't that a moot point considering decking out a '16 with the same features brings things back to square one? Unless of course you intend to use expensive MARS sights.
Of course, the better balance of the SAR is also a big plus. And having fired both systems full auto before, the SAR is a lot more stable.It is more reliable, but many switches are in the wrong places.
Seems to me the only real switch that we have reason to cry foul about is the place of the fire selector. The rest of the controls are where they should be, and the charging system is a big plus over rear-placed the M-16 system.
But I think a lot of it is due to which system you are more used it. Save for the position of the fire selector, I found the overall ergonomics between both systems reasonable and it's really a matter of how well you are drilled in your firearm.It is more compact for FIBUA, but mag change is slower.
Ditto for all bullpups, however the time difference is not significant enough to affect your drills.It has translucent mags, but you can't see the mag while shooting.
Don't really think translucent mags are really meant to be viewed while shooting or taking aim. So I'm not sure what you really mean. It provides an easy means for a grunt to check his ammo status without having to play the guessing game with the old mags.
Plus the new mags are a ton more reliable then the metal ones, they don't warp or dent and takes a lot of worries off loading a faulty mag and getting a misfeed. Polymer mags are the way to go man.It's got a scope, but the iron sights are crude.
Ney, I tested them many times before. They are SPOT ON out to 100, still working up to 200, and beyond that you are better off using the scope anyway (actually you ought to use the scope as and when you can).
If I recall some of the early SAR marks actually had a fully functioning set of iron sights... but it was determined that this added redundancy was better adressed with a far simpler, and more reliable set of open pistol-style iron sights. And the sights work... though putting green dots to allow night shooting through them would be great.Have they finally put a bayonet lug back on? Or do you use changkul when SHTF?
Un uh... the shorter length of bullpups make them far less useful for bayonet fighting. I mean while it's totally possible to mount a bayonet on a bullpup... it actually being useful is another matter entirely. There are a lot of things you can do in close combat (which you should avoid) then just bayonet fighting. But I guess the old grunts might beg to differ... though I was of the transition batch that learnt more of the other techniques to make up for the phasing out of bayonet fighting.
Normal rifle CC methods still work... -
The way I see it the wrong with the SAR-21 is the user who complain !!!
Change the damn user !!! and you will have a good rifle.
Give him any gun - cannot shoot mean cannot shoot !!!
Give him any gun - slow loading what ever gun - he also will load slower then others !!! -
Well to be fair, when I was instructing a lot of the greenhorns on how to use the M-16, a lot of them still had a lot to say about it and why was so different from what they assumed from popular culture.
As we know there are no really bad guns... just really bad shooters. -
SAR21 is the most modern AR we have in our inventory..
who here besides dave got try others on a regular basis?