What's wrong with the SAR-21?
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You fight a war this year so that you can sell your weapons next year.
India + Israeli collaboration is quite strong. I dare say we are third after Israel + USA and Israel + India. They do a lot of unreported tech transfers, which is both good and bad. I will not complain about that because it has benefits too.
India is a mountainous region, where are the special forces likely to be stationed? Kashmir and the Kush region, mainly dusty and cold temperate deserts/mountainous terrain. TAR-21 is much lighter and is proven in desert conditions during the Lebanon conflict.
Thirdly, India is a major power, but they don't really have a good track record in procurement policies.Sad to say, battle tested weapons will always get more sales than technically excellent weapons in countries that are in conflict or potentially getting into one.
Note that our weapon upgrades or weapon systems were sold to states that are not at war in their recent history or likely to be doing so in the future, e.g (Turkey : Yavuz/Terrex, UAE : SRAMS, Brazil : F-5 upgrades etc) with the exception of the Balkan conflict and the Croat use of the Ultimax. -
we shall assess any weapon on the whole.
Not just pin point few good or bad points.
2.On the whole,is SAR21 better than M16 we are familiar?
Any differences to new recruit or old birds?
3.If we think SAR21 ,on the whole ,is good and many here
have used it for some times,then we shall have confidences
on it!!
4.SAR 21 is OK and can do the job!!
5.I have seen even small lady and auntie can shoot SAR21 live rounds
and they find it fun.
I dunt know if they shoot M16 or other rifles. -
SG Ty
Not that I doubt you, mate, but how come all these reports of chamber explosions with SAR-21?
I have been a total of about 15 years in SAF as active and reservist. Served in S2 and in the infantry platoons. And everyone I know have served.
But in all that time, I have never encountered, or even heard of, a chamber explosion happening. In fact, NOBODY ever mentioned the term "chamber explosion".
Obviously, this is not because they never happened. But they must've been SO RARE, that you never hear of it. In fact, "chamber explosion" only became a buzz word here on this forum because of the debate about the SAR-21 kevlar plate.
Did you read about these chamber explosions somewhere, hearsay or what?
And if chamber explosions are INDEED happening with such frequencies with the SAR-21, NO WONDER THE INDIANS DIDN'T CONSIDER THE SAR-21. -
I remember one time where there was a spate of these things but apparently it was due to faulty ammo.
I'm not sure if that was the same incident. -
The reason why there is talks abt chamber explosions is becos unlike conventional designs, the firer actually has his/her face basically resting against the chamber ( bolt carrier, round etc) in a bullpup design AR.Originally posted by moca:SG Ty
Not that I doubt you, mate, but how come all these reports of chamber explosions with SAR-21?
I have been a total of about 15 years in SAF as active and reservist. Served in S2 and in the infantry platoons. And everyone I know have served.
But in all that time, I have never encountered, or even heard of, a chamber explosion happening. In fact, NOBODY ever mentioned the term "chamber explosion".
Obviously, this is not because they never happened. But they must've been SO RARE, that you never hear of it. In fact, "chamber explosion" only became a buzz word here on this forum because of the debate about the SAR-21 kevlar plate.
Did you read about these chamber explosions somewhere, hearsay or what?
And if chamber explosions are INDEED happening with such frequencies with the SAR-21, NO WONDER THE INDIANS DIDN'T CONSIDER THE SAR-21.
Therefore there is this concern for safety against chamber explosions in all bullpup design and not just only for SAR-21.
SAF is extremely kiasu in safety has 2 safety features in our SAR-21, one is the kevlar shield plate against the face of the firer and the 2nd is the patented high pressure vent hole that will released pressure in a rare occurrence of a chamber explosion , I dun think any other AR has such design!!!!
Therefore, it is maybe even safer than M-16 when a rare chamber explosion do occur.
I remember a few years back in Army Open House, SAF setup a firing range for the public (including aunties and children as young perhaps 8~9yo) to test fire the M-16s and SAR-21s with live rds, the weapons were all chained up of course and 5 rds were fired for abt every min and the half or so for whole day, more than a thousand rds were fired a day per weapon, in fact , one NSF has complained to me abt the need to clean the overused weapon after every day!!!
So, dun assume just becos SAF is KS & has these additional safety features in SAR-21 means it is prone to chamber explosion.
If it is so, do you think that SAF which is super KS in safety will accept the weapon into SAF and even allow public firing of it by children etc in Army Open House???
I dun think so. -
My buddy incident was due 2 faulty ammo
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Moca, there were chamber explosions with the SAR21.
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Any more info?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Moca, there were chamber explosions with the SAR21. -
I can't say lah, opsec. But it's not entirely the weapon's fault..Originally posted by moca:Any more info?
in fact, chamber explosions for any other weapon is not entirely weapon-faulted, because user + ammo and other circumstances are always factors.. -
Okay, I'll be a lil more thankful for lugging around that extra weight the kevlar weight packs!
Btw, gotta correct something I mentioned b4. The SAR-21 Picatinny still has the kevlar plate. Its the Sar-21 carbine (an even more compact version) that has the kevlar plate removed IIRC. It was on display at AA2006.
Theres really nothing WRONG with the SAR-21. Its a lil heavier over the M-16, thats all. Maybe we oughta accidentally sell a few of them to some Somalian Militia... and we'll really see if its combat effectiveness in the hands of some druggy peasant. -
Originally posted by moca:
Not sure if anybody has pointed this out, but from what I know, chamber explosions (which is quite rare to begin with) is usually due to faulty ammo, not the rifle... that is, unless somebody has done something seriously silly, like stuff something tightly into the firing chamber or barrel, of course...
And if chamber explosions are INDEED happening with such frequencies with the SAR-21, NO WONDER THE INDIANS DIDN'T CONSIDER THE SAR-21.[/b] -
Oh yeah.. the open house.. my sprawny 1.6m girlfriend shot the SAR-21 too.
Don't know the score though.. but she says it's like a toy.. It's fun.. but too loud. -
yeah.. me shot 5/5 using the SAR21 , but i have to crank my neck a little, i think my neck is too long
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now that's very good, it shows that the weapon can still function after so many rounds have been continuously fired from it.Originally posted by gary1910:I remember a few years back in Army Open House, SAF setup a firing range for the public (including aunties and children as young perhaps 8~9yo) to test fire the M-16s and SAR-21s with live rds, the weapons were all chained up of course and 5 rds were fired for abt every min and the half or so for whole day, more than a thousand rds were fired a day per weapon, in fact , one NSF has complained to me abt the need to clean the overused weapon after every day!!!
good to know -
Actually, most civilians can fire the M-16 with absolutely no problems either.
In fact, the M-16 is less loud cos the chamber is further away, and so is the muzzle blast.
The M-16 can also fire many rounds without jamming. I have spent entire days and nights of range or live firing without cleaning my weapon and no IA occurred. ANd then, with some older weapons, IA occurs no matter how many times you clean the weapon.
You must take into account that a lot of the M-16 we used were beat-up, decades old training weapons. Whereas the SAR-21s are all less than 10 years old.
Not to spark off a M-16 vs SAR-21 debate once more, but just to point out that most rifles, including the M-16, can do all this and more. -
No debate, but obviously the M-16 can't fail like every couple of shots or it won't even be considered as an infantry weapon.
Fundamentally speaking however, the operating principle of the basic M-16 and co. renders it inherently less reliable then other system for it is a “dirty” system. A brand new rifle should work just fine but quite obviously more care must be taken to keep the rifle working in the field then say your typical piston firearm like the AK or the SAR.
So for the tropics where we see a lot of mud, water and soilÂ… we have always been aware of the fact that the M-16 system isnÂ’t entirely optimal for such an environment. Trouble is the system has very little tolerances to getting fouled, once it starts to show problem with the gas cycling itÂ’s time for a major cleaning or the rifle will start to get cranky.
So the piston for us at least, is a step forward in reliability. If your SAR gets fouled in the field, you still have the option of adjusting the gas regulator to restore functional reliability until you have the chance to do a proper cleaning. Which is quite a big plus if you are doing def. Ex in the mud and rain. -
Huh, then it seems you must have either been lucky or unlucky not to hear of all these news.Originally posted by moca:SG Ty
Not that I doubt you, mate, but how come all these reports of chamber explosions with SAR-21?
I have been a total of about 15 years in SAF as active and reservist. Served in S2 and in the infantry platoons. And everyone I know have served.
But in all that time, I have never encountered, or even heard of, a chamber explosion happening. In fact, NOBODY ever mentioned the term "chamber explosion".
Obviously, this is not because they never happened. But they must've been SO RARE, that you never hear of it. In fact, "chamber explosion" only became a buzz word here on this forum because of the debate about the SAR-21 kevlar plate.
Did you read about these chamber explosions somewhere, hearsay or what?
And if chamber explosions are INDEED happening with such frequencies with the SAR-21, NO WONDER THE INDIANS DIDN'T CONSIDER THE SAR-21.
But it seems to me at least, that chamber explosions happen from time to time in most types of weapons. Bullpups are rather dangerous for this to happen because the explosion usually happens right beside your head. So chamber explosions are an issue for bullpups not because they are inherently more unreliable, but because the same event carries a higher risk of injury or death.
In any case, from my personal experience and hearsay... chamber explosions were a rather talked-about topic in my time. We knew that they were rare but regular enough that it was an issue.
Depends on where you are as well, some units might just submit the report and hush it up... now where I was though.
Never personally came across an SAR chamber explosion, during my SISPEC an M203 did indeed blow up in the hands of this unlucky trainee. He was unhurt but the magazine was ruined (and had he put his hand there he would certainly be cut)... the weapon was a pretty badly damaged as well. I think the issue was with the rifle.
From what I gathered around as my experience as an instructor in BMTC, chamber explosions happen from time to time with our M-16s and AR-15s before they stepped up the FFF standards.
So what does this indicate? Depends on our NS experience... I mean there are several supposedly "common" NS events that I have never seen in my who experience... so only MINDEF has the numbers I guess.
As for SAR-21 chamber explosions... I think the only confirmed incident I came across was this NS man who drew a faulty weapon and fired it with the barrel rod stuck in the barrel... that would have exploded any weapon and had it been an Aug or SA80 he would almost certianly been badly injured or killed.
But thanks to the K-plate, he escaped with only superfical burns.
There were other incidents which were filtered down to us as notices and hearsay, they are highly similar involving firing the weapon with a part missing (hence the bolt could not lock and the gases escaped in a direct blowback) or with stuff in the barrel that should not be there. In all those cases the weapons were already not fit for firing, nor would any other make of weapon, given the same situtation, have escaped a chamber explosion.
So is the SAR-21 really more prone to chamber explosions? Or has the SAF decided to become more transparent with its incidents. We can only speculate, but I think the latter is far more likely. -
Yes, my personal experience with the reliability of the SAR had it firing thousands of rounds per day during the NDP carnival without giving us issues with IA. What's more we didn't have time to properly clean the weapon before it had to be used again the next day, at the end the SARs were running for one whole week without proper cleaning on dirty blanks and we didn't have any major problems with the rifles fouling at all.
So it certainly deserves it's reputation for reliability. It's a weapon combining the best traits of the M-16 and the AK-47 into one modest package. -
hey there is nothing major wrong with the SAR,
well balance
medium weight
accurate
low recoil
scope
but one thing i dislike about the weapon is the placement of all the switches
the auto and semi switch at the butt area
the mag release catch -
mag release catch is designed for one hand operation. It just needs getting used to.
I do agree with you on the fire selector. Awkwardly placed. -
The third theory is that they feel that it is a loss of face to buy arms from a small country.
u know how to sell this rifle? SAF jump into africa and shoot a bunch of rebel with that gun. take some pic during the battle (soldier and gun usually looks even cool if in real battle) oh.. and i mean dirty rifle and dirty men. it will look sexy.
Call me over-sensitive.
But I sometimes feel that this is a really potential problem every time we fail to secure a major arms sales to a big country. Forget about Timor, Croatia etc.
show the pic to the potential customer. Wham!!!! 100000 unit sold. -
fund me and I'll do the advertising + photoshoot.Originally posted by tankfanatic:u know how to sell this rifle? SAF jump into africa and shoot a bunch of rebel with that gun. take some pic during the battle (soldier and gun usually looks even cool if in real battle) oh.. and i mean dirty rifle and dirty men. it will look sexy.
show the pic to the potential customer. Wham!!!! 100000 unit sold.
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Because India been buying a lot of arms from Isreal !!! their whole navy using barak missiles for their navy ships !!Originally posted by moca:Apparently... India had just paid a few million USD to buy 3,000 plus Tavors.
WHY DIDN'T THEY BUY SAR-21?
Do we need a new sales team at STK, or do we need to re-look at the SAR-21?
A lot of other stuff all isreal, so naturally they will select isreal first. -
Many countries do not have qualms about buying small arms from other countries. They simply buy what they think suits their needs. The choose what they think is best in terms of performance and price.
Unfortunately, Singapore is not on the world map where small arms is concerned. STK does not have same standing as a FN, Colt, Beretta, SIG , HK etc. -
Shall we instigate a war then, and supply some arms?Originally posted by glock:Many countries do not have qualms about buying small arms from other countries. They simply buy what they think suits their needs. The choose what they think is best in terms of performance and price.
Unfortunately, Singapore is not on the world map where small arms is concerned. STK does not have same standing as a FN, Colt, Beretta, SIG , HK etc.