What's wrong with the SAR-21?
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Apparently... India had just paid a few million USD to buy 3,000 plus Tavors.
WHY DIDN'T THEY BUY SAR-21?
Do we need a new sales team at STK, or do we need to re-look at the SAR-21? -
It is very curious why the Indians picked the expensive cousin the TAR-21 instead of the more humble SAR-21? I'm sure they have tried both?
They bought 3,000 weapons, enough for 1 Brigade plus... Perhaps their elite airborne troops or something. Or they could be testing it for potential licence manufacture since their own INSAS was a disaster.
First question:
Did they pick the TAR-21 because the SAR-21 is 1 kg heavier? -
Below is a chart showing the weight of a sampling of assault rifles along with some opinions I posted previously in the "Best Assault Rifle" thread.
In descending order, empty weapon weight according to Modern Firearms:
SA-80 (L85A1): 4.13kg
FN FNC : 4.06kg
SIG 550 : 4.05kg
Galil 5.56 : 3.95kg
SAR-21 : 3.82kg
Stery AUG : 3.80kg
FAMAS G2 : 3.80kg
FN F2000 : 3.60kg
HK G36 : 3.60kg
Type 89 (JPN) : 3.50kg
QBZ-85 : 3.40kg
AKS (AK-74) : 3.30kg
INSAS : 3.20kg
M16A1 : 2.89kg
TAR-21 : 2.80kg -
i think it's the israel brand that was the deciding factor. somemore the tar-21 purchase is meant for their special forces, so perhaps they want something that's developed by the battle-rugged israelis than ST and also something that's lighter? aiya ST can produce the 5.56mm ammunition for this Indian deal not bad liao lor
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Yes, that's my second theory - that Israel is a more important strategic partner than Singapore. That's why they bought TAR-21.
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The third theory is that they feel that it is a loss of face to buy arms from a small country.
Call me over-sensitive.
But I sometimes feel that this is a really potential problem every time we fail to secure a major arms sales to a big country. Forget about Timor, Croatia etc.
Why can't we sell the Ultimax, Bionix, CIS 50, 40mm AGL etc to major armies? Most of us here will testify that these are pretty neat pieces of gear.
Yes, the 155 howitzers seemed to be doing best with licence production in Pakistan.
It must be our size and our lack of clout, then?
There are some people in the Philippines army who really liked the Ultimax but eventually, the major order went to - you guessed it - the overweight and over-priced Minimi.
It weighs and costs much more than the Ultimax but fires the same 5.56mm bullet. So the cash-strapped Philippines army ended up with less weapons than they could've gotten for the same money if they had went for the Ultimax.
WHY? -
2.Some of them afraid losing face to buy stuffs from little red dot.Originally posted by moca:The third theory is that they feel that it is a loss of face to buy arms from a small country.
Call me over-sensitive. .....
Worst,some of them just to buy new stuffs ,never buy second
hand like SG. -
Seriously.. from range videos..
I am not impress at all with the TAR-21... the recoil dislodge the shooters shot line up with every single shot. The TAR maybe be shorter and lighter, but that means shot barrel. The internal parts is also (in my opinion) seemed fragile. You practically needs a iron pick and a hammer to strip it. The coil spring could be remove from the butt-stock though.
The TAR-21 doesn't seemed to have much review at length in extended operations.. it's just too new. And Israel does have a strong worldwide media control to promote it. There is simply not much negative aspect to judge the rifle.. maybe it's that good.. but that also make my suspicious. -
Tavor
SAR 21 Assault Rifle
2.U can single hand carrying SAR 21 with good balance and
Run for your life in battle field.
Very few other rifle can give u this benefit!! -
Why countries select more expensive weapons instead of cheaper ones? Given the quality may be the same.
Part of the answer involves corruption and other forms of illegal profiteering.
Other reasons are probably more political than anything else. -
Haha, but I suspect that STK may also be capable of stooping low to close a deal. They are arms dealers after all and the business is dirty.
Don't shoot me, I just know from the movie Lord of War.
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could be the MARS sight.
and light weight is a plus IMHO for special ops.
and dont forget, dirty political asskissing could be a major reason too. -
remember bofor artillery in indian army? that was one big corruption scandal...
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Apparently they have a Lim Teng Zhui making their decisions, as Fann Wong says in "Just Follow Law"... might as well go for the most expensive one.
No surprise there though, the Ultimax could truly be called a world beater in terms of assualt LMG design but there is this thing called the panda effect where you have to consider market momentum from the reputation of other designs.
The basic version of the SAR-21 intended for common SAF conscript use is not the most competitive of small arms designs out there, because it comes with a lot of the SAF requirement baggage. The other variants that ST make more in line with global arms needs will appeal more to the rest.
But lets not kid ourselves... who has the better brand name? A small red dot that has never been to war with a conscript army or a nation who has to fight for its survival and has made their weapons with to fight for the same uncompromising cause? If you are looking for a cost-effective solution to your next gen needs the SAR-21 is a good option... but if you want to buy a hod-rod weapon with bragging rights and don't mind spending 6.5K a weapon in gross cost... then the Israeli package is the way to go for them.
But given India already has defence development ties with Israel, rather then Singapore... is it any surprise they want to check out the Tavor?
I do not think weight was ever an issue for the Indians... do you see the stuff they use and carry?
But yes, there is a dark side to the weight of the Tavor. The weapon (as with any weapon of its weight actually) has the reputation of being difficult to control after the first shot and less stable to hold as the dampening effect the weight of the weapon has on aim and recoil is mostly gone. Few weapons prove an exception to this rule (like the Ultimax), but the Tavor is unfortunately not one of them. It takes some skill to shoot with a light weapon.
But different features for different users... the Israeli think the lack of stability is a price they are willing to pay... I think the SAF conscript needs something less jumpy (though I would be one of the first in line for a Tavor if I had the choice).2.U can single hand carrying SAR 21 with good balance and
Paper lion roaring again... the one-handed balance of the SAR-21 is a good design idea in my opinion... I have experienced the joys of FIBUA with such a weapon...
Run for your life in battle field.
Very few other rifle can give u this benefit!!
However it is a nice quirk, but I think different designers have different ideas for the balance of their weapon.
The TAR-21 is back-balanced (from my experience with it), with the weight shifted to the rear to prevent muzzle drop while going prone or other difficult options... and also because it's more natural in the human wrist to keep a barrel down then trying to pull it up. One handed operation is also possible with the Tavor- BUT the back balance does not help in soaking the recoil and makes it worse in some cases... seemed to be one of the reasons why the Israelis who converted to it were critical at first (and not just because they were experiencing the switchover syndrome like us), but they adapted to it pretty well.
Oddly enough, still don't see this firearm in widespread Israeli use. -
They must have their reasons for not selecting e SAR21, but tat doesnt mind tat something wroung with it, just like SG didnt select Tyhoon doesnt means tat e F-15SG beat e Tyhoon hands down
It is PARTLY due 2 e fact tat e Typhoon cant be deliered in time Tat could be others reasons -
informative indeed.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Apparently they have a Lim Teng Zhui making their decisions, as Fann Wong says in "Just Follow Law"... might as well go for the most expensive one.
No surprise there though, the Ultimax could truly be called a world beater in terms of assualt LMG design but there is this thing called the panda effect where you have to consider market momentum from the reputation of other designs.
The basic version of the SAR-21 intended for common SAF conscript use is not the most competitive of small arms designs out there, because it comes with a lot of the SAF requirement baggage. The other variants that ST make more in line with global arms needs will appeal more to the rest.
But lets not kid ourselves... who has the better brand name? A small red dot that has never been to war with a conscript army or a nation who has to fight for its survival and has made their weapons with to fight for the same uncompromising cause? If you are looking for a cost-effective solution to your next gen needs the SAR-21 is a good option... but if you want to buy a hod-rod weapon with bragging rights and don't mind spending 6.5K a weapon in gross cost... then the Israeli package is the way to go for them.
But given India already has defence development ties with Israel, rather then Singapore... is it any surprise they want to check out the Tavor?
I do not think weight was ever an issue for the Indians... do you see the stuff they use and carry?
But yes, there is a dark side to the weight of the Tavor. The weapon (as with any weapon of its weight actually) has the reputation of being difficult to control after the first shot and less stable to hold as the dampening effect the weight of the weapon has on aim and recoil is mostly gone. Few weapons prove an exception to this rule (like the Ultimax), but the Tavor is unfortunately not one of them. It takes some skill to shoot with a light weapon.
But different features for different users... the Israeli think the lack of stability is a price they are willing to pay... I think the SAF conscript needs something less jumpy (though I would be one of the first in line for a Tavor if I had the choice).
the SAR-21 has some really WEIRD features thou.
the charging handle, its just as awkward to use as the G36 charging handle.
If you google "magpul MASADA" , that rifle has a neat trick, it has FAL/AK-like charging handles that can be switched left or right.
the kevlar plate ...wtf? its good logically but i could do without that extra weight.
Firing selector is at the BACK of the rifle, not really good for tactical situations.
TAR-21's fire selector is the same as a m-16's, and its MARS sight red dot is switched on with the fire selector when its switched from safe to semi/fire.
Overall the SAR-21 corrected the squishy trigger pull of the AUG and thats it.
Maybe its cheaper but spec-ops ARE willing to pay for a lighter,better and more expensive weapon.
And if im an Spec-op , i will too choose the Tar-21 solely for its reputation and no brainer fire selection position.Proven in battle , why not? -
the charging handle, its just as awkward to use as the G36 charging handle
What's so awkward about it? I found its egronomics superior then the charging system of the M-16... can be operated by either hand and does not require you to move your hand to an unnaturally rearward position to charge the weapon.the kevlar plate ...wtf? its good logically but i could do without that extra weight.
As for Kevlar plate... it's Singaporean kiasuness... but a chamber explosion with a bullpup is no joke. As opposed to failures in a conventional layout where you might at worst be injured, a bullpup failure might kill you or take a large part of your face off. Seem the aftermath of an Aug explosion before? You do not want to be using the weapon at that time.
So yeah... that in mind, I don't mind the insurance. There might be nothing wrong with the weapon but if you get a batch of faulty ammo you are screwed. The kevlar plate has already saved several lives in SAR-21 chamber explosion incidents in the SAF so at least that's one feature we have that was tested by fire. So yeah, I'm for it.
In fact it should really come standard with any bullpup design.Firing selector is at the BACK of the rifle, not really good for tactical situations.
How so? Are there any pressing tatical situtations that require a switch from semi to auto on the fly? I find it hard to think of any... often its either a case of you're already semi or already auto. Of course one also needs to consider that building a forward fire selector is a tricky prospect in bullpups that involves adding linkages. So no duff to ST if they wanted to avoid it entirely.
How long does it take to switch to auto anyway? Not even a second.
It would be a problem if the safety switch was behind, but that's not the case.Maybe its cheaper but spec-ops ARE willing to pay for a lighter,better and more expensive weapon.
The SAR-21 is designed in the lines of the AK47 and M16, in the context of a rifle that was intended for mainsteam use in the conscript Singaporean army, so it's not exactly surprising that it does not fit the spec ops bill the best... not any more then a stock AK47 or M16 fits your spec ops operator. There's a reason why it's called special operations, after all... lol.
And if im an Spec-op , i will too choose the Tar-21 solely for its reputation and no brainer fire selection position.Proven in battle , why not?
Not the normal variant at least. The SAR MMS or LW variants make more sense for spec ops use. But hey, if you are spec ops, why not spend? -
E kavlar safed my buddy from a binded eye ok
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im trying to address the problem of the SAR-21's spec ops procurement process, not regular conscript use...Originally posted by spartan6:E kavlar safed my buddy from a binded eye ok
as SG t-rex have said , why not spend if you are spec ops?
plus , you never know what stuff india might be trying to hatch by ordering such a huge amt weapons .
Maybe the Tar-21 is just icing for tech transfers? remember ,israel makes lots of weird and interesting innovative stuff thats NOT avaliable to any other country officially...yet.(undertable transfers ?...hmm)
Iron-fist anyone? Currently only france and Israel has active anti missle tech installed on their tanks.
SAR-21 , Best Assault rifle in Singapore, no contest, but its a big world out there. -
We shouldn't be too surprised on the Tavor deal, India and Israel have always had defence ties. Makes sense for Israel to get into India and China's good books as well considering its situtation.
Though I think a kevlar plate is a good investment for your spec ops bullpup... it would stink to lose an operative and all his skills and training just because of a chamber explosion... and these things do happen from time to time.
I don't want to make a big issue of chamber explosions, given they are rare if you use proper ammo and take care of your weapon. But lets just say that if you are involved in one... the bullpup you want to be holding would be the SAR-21. -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:We shouldn't be too surprised on the Tavor deal, India and Israel have always had defence ties. Makes sense for Israel to get into India and China's good books as well considering its situtation.
Though I think a kevlar plate is a good investment for your spec ops bullpup... it would stink to lose an operative and all his skills and training just because of a chamber explosion... and these things do happen from time to time.
I don't want to make a big issue of chamber explosions, given they are rare if you use proper ammo and take care of your weapon. But lets just say that if you are involved in one... the bullpup you want to be holding would be the SAR-21.
i agree 100%.
of cuz, if the spec ops use lousy ammo or reallty gets a KABOOM during an operation, i seriously doubt the overall quality of the unit... -
Originally posted by ktk:
shit happens man......maybe some idiot screwed up ammo allocation and give them a box of lousier ammo? Who know's better safe then sorry.
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i agree 100%.
of cuz, if the spec ops use lousy ammo or reallty gets a KABOOM during an operation, i seriously doubt the overall quality of the unit... [/b] -
there's no better ammo and lousy ammo. there's just ok ammo and screwed up faulty ammo.
i think nobody in their right mind would want to manufacture faulty ammo. -
other than what had been said by all on this topic, just one more things ppl had miss out.
THE MAGAZINE. think of the cost. it just so simple. -
The Indian procurement process has been anything but apolitical. Not to mention, most of them were botched with charges of bribes etc. I think some Russian arms procurement also got thrown into the mix. Realistically, India isn't really a rational customer.
I believe that at one point of time, our FH-2000 howitzer was running against Bofors. The latter one, only for the entire deal to be mired with corruption charges and what not.