RMAF's Sukhois to arrive in May — one year late
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Originally posted by tankfanatic:
from wiki
sorry wrong link...i mixed up with another forum -
Correction to my last post. The F-16 was shot down by surface to air missiles. Not MiG-29 with low level hit-fade tactics.
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2morrow continue
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a merge happen when opponent pass each other 3-9...right?...so if you a pilot what would you do when your opponent peel off...there should be a tactic where you can take this to your advantage.
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IF we merge and my target decides to disengage by going full AB out of the fight, there is not much I can do unless I have longer reach weapons such as the AMRAAM. Even so, by the time I make my 180 turn, I'd have negative closure rate on him. Even with my AMRAAM on him, he might still be able to escape if he stays in full AB and just outrun the AMRAAM.
This is speaking in terms of a rather high-performance target, like F-16s and MiG-29s that have the T/W ratio to run that fast.
If my target is a slower target, ladened with bombs for example, he'd have no chance in hell to run away unless he jettisons all external stores.
So here we see a major consideration on whether to merge or not. If my aircraft is unable to match up with my opponents in both acceleration and turn rate, I would be at a serious disadvantage trying to merge.
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with reference to su-30mkm's radar and f-16d+/ incoming f15sg, which aircraft is more superior?hmm what threats does the su-30 poised to us? i ve been pondering bout this question...
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Jfoongph: Trying to answer that question is like asking "how long is a piece of string?"
Aircraft vs aircraft comparisons are almost always meaningless in the real world. Air combat maneuvering is similar to 3-D chess, there are so many variables involved that the outcome can be different everytime. What is the speed of the SU-30MKM? What is the speed of the F-16D/F-15SG? Is the SU-30MKM being directed by AWACS? Is the F-15/F-16D being directed by AWACS? Are both directed by AWACS? What is the AWACS platform used? What ECM is the SU-30MKM using? What ECM is the F-15/F-16 using? What missiles are the SU-30MKM carrying? What missiles are the F-15/F-16 using? How well trained is the pilot? ...etc`
At the end of the day, it comes down to airforce vs airforce, and it comes down to training and logistics. A superior airforce will always be able to come up with a doctrine or strategy to neutralize any aircraft advantage. A classic example was the Six Day War (1967). In several aspects the MiG-21 had superior flight performance to the Israeli Mirage III's. But the Israeli's were able to neutralize the advantages of the MiG-21 by forcing the MiG's to fight at low altitude and at very fast speed. The Mig's superior capabilities at high altitudes was therefore neutralized. So you see its not just a matter of which aircraft is 'superior' or 'inferior', other factors come into play.
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Its hard to answer in terms of radar performance of any aircraft with respect to ECM environment since those are largely classified. But one thing worthy to note is that the Su-30 has a large Radar Cross section that may result in it being detected at longer ranges.
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Thks to johngage and shotgun, well anyway in general how will Su-30mkm affect singapore /RSAF in her operations? or even ASEAN. Coming to the topic RMAF vs RSAF, any pointers? or maybe a new threat is more appropriate?
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Our opinions do not matter or even reflect actual operations of the RSAF unless specifically stated. Not much to say, except that the RSAF is always ready to make hard decisions.
As demonstrated by the Cessna intrusion, we even take slow plodding unidentified aircraft seriously.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Its hard to answer in terms of radar performance of any aircraft with respect to ECM environment since those are largely classified. But one thing worthy to note is that the Su-30 has a large Radar Cross section that may result in it being detected at longer ranges.
not large cross section..but very large cross section!..that thing is huge! ..its IR signature should be even bigger...unless ofcourse the Indian did something to shield the IR signature. -
Hard to shield AL-31Fs. Those things are HOT. Hence also not maintenance friendly.
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but some time in air battle these other factor (AEW planes, ground systems, modern multi-mode and multi-function radars, AESA radars, age of systems, modern EW systems) might not be there, it could happen. BVR and WVR is a subjective matters, you cant simply assume everytime both side fight in a exellent condition (ie : having all those factor that you wrote above)
in case, you still have not fathomed the gist of the argument. What we are saying is that the majority of the battles will be from bvr range. And it is expected to be case now and in the future. This is reflected by the nature of the latest systems for aerial warfare coming out of defence manufacturers' factories. You think they do not know what they are doing? Even the latest sidewinders and Asraams are able to operate at near bvr. No one is saying that WVR battles will not happen. What are tactics, etc for? But to say that all the battles in the future will be wvr and everyone will head to a merge is patently ridiculous. It`s the equivalent of mindless robots heading toward one another. Everyone will try to maximise thier wins versus potential losses.
As per not having systems like AWACs all the time, that is possible. But not likely. That`s why countries buy several of them when they do buy them. Also, it for nothing that they have large ranges. The current E-2C covers the entire Malaysian peninsula and even parts of thailand and Indonesia. The Phalcon based CAEW will have an even greater range. And we have 4. They are tied to a host of other sensors like the Fokker MPAs, UAVs, Herakles, ground based radars, etc.
Radar systems like AESA,etc are embedded into the planes themselves. So i do not know what you are talking about here. All future combat aircrafts will be sporting multi-mode AESAs and PESAs anyway.
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NICE ARSE
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No pilot wants to be shot down..it's a looooooonnnnggggg ride down.
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Tell that to the MiG pilots that joined the Ejection Seat Club.
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Originally posted by tankfanatic:
NICE ARSE
Woohoo! 3D thrust vectoring FTW. Maintainence is gonna be hell though.
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the above were MKM arse...but this one indian Su30 MKI TVC....sweeeet look like taken from a macross movie
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Maintainence is gonna be hell though.
Of course. It will end up like the Migs. They never learn. Logistical issues and problems across the board.
We evaluated them. We kicked them out of the NGF program. They were not even in the last 3.
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Originally posted by tankfanatic:
the above were MKM arse...but this one indian Su30 MKI TVC....sweeeet look like taken from a macross movie
Wait I'm confused-- from these pictures it looks like they have only 2D thrust vectoring, so do they have 2D or 3D thrust vectoring?
Also, Skye2: We evaluate systems, not individual aircraft. the MKI/MKM may infact be a better aircraft that we rejected simply because it can't fire the missiles we have, communicate with our AWACs, or refuel from our tankers. Nothing to do with the superiority of the fighter. In fact, I'm pretty sure that in ideal situations, 1 on 1, the MKM will win over the F-15 most of the time.
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Posting here is very irritating as I could have written a lot but the post does`nt come out at all when i click `save reply.'
Also, Skye2: We evaluate systems, not individual aircraft. the MKI/MKM may infact be a better aircraft that we rejected simply because it can't fire the missiles we have, communicate with our AWACs, or refuel from our tankers. Nothing to do with the superiority of the fighter. In fact, I'm pretty sure that in ideal situations, 1 on 1, the MKM will win over the F-15 most of the time.
We evaluate aircrafts holistically. But we also ensure that the combat jets perform as well in the key parameters. And that means winning against competing combat jets in the region; with and without AWAC support. So I disagree with your statement on the su-30 winning against the F15s. The F15SG is simply the better aircraft.
The purpose of the NGF competition is to compare competing aircrafts' specifications(especially key specifications)and squeeze every penny out of the vendors so that we get the best deals. The fact that the Su-30 did not even get short-listed in the top 3 says a lot. It simply failed to compare favaourably with the Rafale, typhoon and the F15SG.
We would not have short-listed the Rafale if we were not prepared to accept a different logistical line of weapons. As a matter of fact, a lot of American weaponry are not cleared for usage by the Rafale.
To the vendors, it is about getting short-listed by a world class discerning air force. It is not just about the number of combat jets Singapore is about to purchase. The initial purchase was for a small number of just 12 aircrafts anyway. Hardly huge. The Sukhois simply failed to make the grade.
Every other country which could afford a good Western jet has gone Western. Practically every other country which could not afford to get a good Western jet has gone Russian. Who should know better? The Russians know very well that they could not compete against Western equivalent jets in thier full glory which is why they are even willing to accept barter trade in commodities or even loan money to countries to buy thier products. How silly does it get?
Russian jets are over-rated. This is shown by the kill-ratios thay have suffered over the years and the never ending logistical issues plagueing the Russian air force and other users of Russian goods.
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very brilliant and intelligent summary...you are soooooooo smart! lol
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Originally posted by edwin3060:
Wait I'm confused-- from these pictures it looks like they have only 2D thrust vectoring, so do they have 2D or 3D thrust vectoring?
Also, Skye2: We evaluate systems, not individual aircraft. the MKI/MKM may infact be a better aircraft that we rejected simply because it can't fire the missiles we have, communicate with our AWACs, or refuel from our tankers. Nothing to do with the superiority of the fighter. In fact, I'm pretty sure that in ideal situations, 1 on 1, the MKM will win over the F-15 most of the time.
Honestly, unless the Thrust vectoring is fully controlled and part of the flight computer, its just gonna make the plane a whole lot harder to fly. Not that thrust vectoring is not a good thing, I'm all for it... but they've got to simplify it and make it smarter at the same time. -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
Honestly, unless the Thrust vectoring is fully controlled and part of the flight computer, its just gonna make the plane a whole lot harder to fly. Not that thrust vectoring is not a good thing, I'm all for it... but they've got to simplify it and make it smarter at the same time.Agree 100%. But as far as I know, thrust vectoring is controlled by the flight computer as well, no? At least, it is so in the F-22, and I assume that it would be the same for the MKM. How else could you control it?
