Are latest gen of Russian ATGMs better than Western ones ?

• glock

  8 Feb 07, 21:06

  It seems that the latest experience of the Israeli army in the Lebanon was a very unpleasant one being at the receiving end of the latest Russian ATGMs .
  
  If they are that good, SAF shud consider using them since we already have Russian weapons in use.
• wonderamazement

  8 Feb 07, 21:30

  Any idea of the models that they are using?
• dork3d

  8 Feb 07, 21:49

  Think it's the AT-13 Metis-M...
• Shotgun

  9 Feb 07, 02:22

  I'd say the western ones are still better in terms of attack profile. Top-Down + tandem warhead. But brute strength goes to the Russian ones.
• Fingolfin_Noldor

  9 Feb 07, 05:32

  Western military is slowly armouring the top of their tanks to starve off top down attacks. For the Russians, they need to crack open the Chobham type armour which the West uses. So naturally they use sheer brute force.
• spencer99

  9 Feb 07, 07:14

  Originally posted by glock:

  It seems that the latest experience of the Israeli army in the Lebanon was a very unpleasant one being at the receiving end of the latest Russian ATGMs .
  
  If they are that good, SAF shud consider using them since we already have Russian weapons in use.

  In a way, western ATGMs are not really "tested". The latest TOW expenditure are probably for knocking down walls during FIBUA. There isn't much "tanks" for western ATGMs to knock out in current conflicts....
  
  It is the soviet bloc ATGMs that are tested by insurgents.... against US, UK and Iseral AFVs.
  
• dork3d

  9 Feb 07, 08:37

  The Russian AT-13 Metis-M uses a tandem head HEAT but it will be nice to incorporate the top flight down attack on final target approach...
• glock

  9 Feb 07, 12:34

  I think the Malaysians have the Metis. Anyone can confirm ?
• dork3d

  9 Feb 07, 13:00

  Originally posted by glock:

  I think the Malaysians have the Metis. Anyone can confirm ?

  Yes... RMAF has AT-7 Metis, not the latter version of AT-13 Metis-M...
• student 17

  9 Feb 07, 22:35

  Originally posted by dork3d:

  Yes... RMAF has AT-7 Metis, not the latter version of AT-13 Metis-M...

  Nope. THe Malaysian Army uses the AT-13 Metis M mounted on G-wagon vehicles and tripods. 20 launchers and 100 missile rounds were bought.
  
• Shotgun

  9 Feb 07, 22:48

  The US Javelin AT missile is
  1. Fire and Forget
  2. Tandem Warhead
  3. Top attack profile.
  
  And it still remains to be one of the best ATGMs in the business.
  
  I honestly do not thing that the METIS is better than the Javelin. Cheaper perhaps, but not better.
• Fingolfin_Noldor

  10 Feb 07, 00:08

  Originally posted by Shotgun:

  The US Javelin AT missile is
  1. Fire and Forget
  2. Tandem Warhead
  3. Top attack profile.
  
  And it still remains to be one of the best ATGMs in the business.
  
  I honestly do not thing that the METIS is better than the Javelin. Cheaper perhaps, but not better.

  There is the newer Kornet which is supposedly better but I don't think it has top-down attack.
  
  We use an Israeli Spike right? How does that compare? I think it isn't as good as the newer ATGMs if I recall.
• Shotgun

  10 Feb 07, 00:26

  I am not sure if the Spike variants have a top attack capability. But on most sites, they mention a loft trajectory. However, I believe loft trajectory does not necessarily mean that its a top attack capable.
  
  And from what I understand, the SPIKE does have a tandem warhead, (not sure about SAF variant). But from what I hear, I believe its common practice to double target a hard target such as an MBT.
• Shotgun

  10 Feb 07, 01:09

  Just to add a few notes to consider
  
  The METIS is essentially a TOW type of ATGM. Operator guides it very a thermal imager, and it sends the necessary corrections down the wire.
  
  The KORNET, is a laser guided ATGM.
  
  Javelin, infrared imaging seeker onboard the missile. Fire n forget capable.
  
  SPike, also Imaging infrared seeker, Fire and forget capable.
  
  In terms of guidance, u can see which are the ones that r more advantageous to survival after launch. =D
• gary1910

  10 Feb 07, 07:24

  The Russian Kornet is still based on older technology having SACLOS laser beam guidance with direct fire profile. i.e. not fire and forget and non top attack ATGM.
  
  Whereas our Spike ATGM has 2 type of guidance using thermal imaging is able to lock on target and fire in fire & forget mode or in observe and update mode using the fibre-optic data link.
  
  It could also be used in a Non Line-of-Sight (NLOS) mode where it will be fired in a Lock On After Lanuched mode, for example over a smal knoll etc due to it loft trajectory and it's datalink.
  
  So Spike is more advanced technology wise as compare to the Kornet.
  
  Kornet has longer range of 5km whereas our Spike LR is 4 km , Kornet has greater penetration of 1200mm RHA whereas Spike has rumoured to be abt 700mm RHA but this does not matter becos Spike is a top attack ATGM where it will be going for the turret top where it has thinest armour.
  
  Spike also enjoy good sales with 6 nations using including 4 European nations and more is expected, most nations who is going for the latest ATGM is looking at either the Javelin or Spike.
  
  
• dork3d

  10 Feb 07, 07:37

  How about the latest version of Milan ER? Anyone have any idea on its enhanced capabilities other than the extended ranged from 2km to 3km?
• Fingolfin_Noldor

  10 Feb 07, 08:24

  Originally posted by gary1910:

  The Russian Kornet is still based on older technology having SACLOS laser beam guidance with direct fire profile. i.e. not fire and forget and non top attack ATGM.
  
  Whereas our Spike ATGM has 2 type of guidance using thermal imaging is able to lock on target and fire in fire & forget mode or in observe and update mode using the fibre-optic data link.
  
  It could also be used in a Non Line-of-Sight (NLOS) mode where it will be fired in a Lock On After Lanuched mode, for example over a smal knoll etc due to it loft trajectory and it's datalink.
  
  So Spike is more advanced technology wise as compare to the Kornet.
  
  Kornet has longer range of 5km whereas our Spike LR is 4 km , Kornet has greater penetration of 1200mm RHA whereas Spike has rumoured to be abt 700mm RHA but this does not matter becos Spike is a top attack ATGM where it will be going for the turret top where it has thinest armour.
  
  Spike also enjoy good sales with 6 nations using including 4 European nations and more is expected, most nations who is going for the latest ATGM is looking at either the Javelin or Spike.
  
  

  Our Spike is the older variant though. I don't think we have gotten down to the Spike ER with range of 8km actually.
• gary1910

  10 Feb 07, 16:42

  Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:

  Our Spike is the older variant though. I don't think we have gotten down to the Spike ER with range of 8km actually.

  Here on Poland live firing eval :
  
  http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/6/606.pdf
  
  Based on the above , there are already 7 nations using Spike family of ATGM, Israel, SG, Romania , Finland , Netherlands, Poland and lastly Spain, at least what is known so far.
  
  
• glock

  16 Feb 07, 17:59

  1. Spike has two modes - top attack and normal trajectory ; our version also has the fibre optic link.
  2. What works counts ; 21 Merkava 4s' armor were penetrated by ( I assume ) latest versions of Russian ATGMs during the recent battles in South Lebanon. That says a lot about Russian AT weapons.