Defence expenditure - SEA
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Hi,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures#List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
I noticed that Singapore's defence expenditure is so much higher then Malaysia's and Indonesia's!
Is this "accurate"?
1 United States 522,000,000,000 2005
2 People's Republic of China[1] 70,480,000,000 2005 (est.)
3 United Kingdom 60,388,574,400 2006/07
4 France 45,000,000,000 2005
5 Japan 44,310,000,000 2005
6 Germany 34,100,000,000 2004
7 Italy 28,182,800,000 2003
8 Saudi Arabia 25,400,000,000 2005
9 Russia 23,470,000,000[2] 2006
10 South Korea 21,050,000,000 2005
11 India 19,040,000,000 2005
12 Australia 14,500,000,000 2006
13 Turkey 12,155,000,000 2004
14 Brazil 9,933,000,000 2004
15 Spain 9,906,500,000 2003
16 Canada 9,801,700,000 2003
17 Israel 9,444,000,000 2005
18 Netherlands 9,408,000,000 2004
19 Republic of China (Taiwan) 7,923,000,000 2005
20 Iran 6,300,000,000 2005.
21 Colombia 6,300,000,000 [2] [3] 2005
22 Mexico 6,062,000,000 2005
23 Greece 5,890,000,000 2004
24 Sweden 5,501,000,000 2005
25 North Korea 5,000,000,000 2005
26 Singapore 4,470,000,000 NA
27 Argentina 4,300,000,000 NA
28 Pakistan 4,253,000,000 2004
29 Norway 4,033,500,000 2003
30 Belgium 3,999,000,000 2003
31 Chile 3,907,000,000 2005
32 South Africa 3,548,000,000 2005
33 Poland 3,500,000,000 2002
34 Portugal 3,497,800,000 2003
35 Denmark 3,271,600,000 2003
36 Kuwait 3,007,000,000 2005
37 Algeria 2,994,000,000 2005
38 Finland 2,800,000,000 FY06
39 Switzerland 2,548,000,000 2005
40 Egypt 2,440,000,000 2003
41 Austria 2,334,900,000 [3] FY06
42 Morocco 2,306,000,000 2005
43 Czech Republic 2,170,000,000 2004
44 Angola 2,000,000,000 2005
45 Thailand 1,775,000,000 NA
46 Malaysia 1,690,000,000 NA
47 Venezuela 1,606,000,000 2005 -
We are higher largely because we have a conscript army which means we actually have a larger standing army than the M'sia or Indonesia. I remember there was some statistic that showed how large an army we really have. Plus, we have been purchasing pretty much the 2nd best equipment around, unlike the M'sians who often grab the 3rd or so best stuff. I mean, they grab T-72s while we have Leopard 2s, albeit at a bargain price.
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Somehow I can't believe we only rank slightly below North Korea and we outspend Pakistan, which exploded Nuclear bombs and is facing off a regional superpower India!Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:We are higher largely because we have a conscript army which means we actually have a larger standing army than the M'sia or Indonesia. I remember there was some statistic that showed how large an army we really have. Plus, we have been purchasing pretty much the 2nd best equipment around, unlike the M'sians who often grab the 3rd or so best stuff. I mean, they grab T-72s while we have Leopard 2s, albeit at a bargain price. -
actually the fact that we have a conscript army means that we pay our NSFs peanuts and it should be "cheaper" to maintain a conscript standing army rather then a fully professional one... that was the arguement when Sgp first started National Service!Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:We are higher largely because we have a conscript army which means we actually have a larger standing army than the M'sia or Indonesia. I remember there was some statistic that showed how large an army we really have. Plus, we have been purchasing pretty much the 2nd best equipment around, unlike the M'sians who often grab the 3rd or so best stuff. I mean, they grab T-72s while we have Leopard 2s, albeit at a bargain price.
But then i agree that we probably pay a lot in terms of NSmen make up pay and also the eqpt to fully equiped a fully mobilized force! -
2.MY bought the new and the latest,like sub,tank,fighters.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:We are higher largely because we have a conscript army which means we actually have a larger standing army than the M'sia or Indonesia. I remember there was some statistic that showed how large an army we really have.
Plus, we have been purchasing pretty much the 2nd best equipment around, unlike the M'sians who often grab the 3rd or so best stuff. I mean, they grab T-72s while we have Leopard 2s, albeit at a bargain price.
SG bought like scrap metal,40 years of sub,20 years tank,
......
3.The performance of any platform come from.
Machines---the design and max capacity
Men---how they are trained,morale,....
Maintenance---u miss a screw and machine cant work.
...................Depends on Men -
Lets not forget.. ICT and Make up pay etc..constitute a large chunk of the spending as well..
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I am just shocked that a little red dot can be ranked 26th in Military spending!
although ICT and makeup pay cost a lot. It still cost much less then maintaining a 300,000 men (estimated total mobilized strength) full-time force.
if I am not wrong, Thailand maintained a standing armed force close to that number, and their budget is about 60% of ours....
of course, cost of living plays a part too.. i bet the full-time sailors in RMN are paid much less then their counterparts in the RSN. -
Leopard 2 may not be the newest but then again its not exactly a sitting duck compared to the North's Polish tanks either. And let's not forget, the Polish themselves bought Leopard 2A4s despite having their Twardys. Doesn't say much about the confidence they have in their own tanks does it?Originally posted by lionnoisy:2.MY bought the new and the latest,like sub,tank,fighters.
SG bought like scrap metal,40 years of sub,20 years tank,
......
3.The performance of any platform come from.
Machines---the design and max capacity
Men---how they are trained,morale,....
Maintenance---u miss a screw and machine cant work.
...................Depends on Men
As for subs, MY has not officially bought a sub yet. As for our subs, yes they are old but don't forget, we are new to sub warfare. Doesn't make sense getting the best sub in the world when you are new to sub warfare does it? And BTW our Sjoormen class subs are 40 years old BUT our Vasgotland class subs are much newer.
As for fighters, their MIG29s very new meh? Our F16s very old meh?
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Knowing S'pore ''patten''..... the 20yr old Subs are just for show and training.... more to make our 2 big neighbour get used to the idea that we have subs...... before we buy some better type later.
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sorry have to recycle old post but i think is relevant
and explain the $$ we spend.
520,000 in SAF click me
Sg now is protected bymore than 40,000 regulars and full-time NS,
STimes 28.07.2006 Fri,pH6.Army Cam. uniform gets new look.
plus more than 480,000 operationally ready NSmen.
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So ,there is more than 520,000 men and women in SAF lah.
2.The mass of SAF make deployment easier for home land defense,
protection of logistic supply for front line and front line units.
3.The importance of NS not just for the full time period ,but also
for the Op. Ready period.Any one want tease Spore will,
hopefully,have a second thought in view of SAF man power.
Like the Chinese says,'Prevent war by force'.
4.always remember :dunt count on others to protect Sg.
It is not and NE message.Invasion of Kuwait on 02.Aug 1990
u think US or UN can save our ass?some 30 years ago
what happened in Cambodia and South Vietnam ,
will happen in Sg if we are not well prepared.
Not only communist will invade other countries.Dunt be navie.
They know they would suffer a lot in front line units as well as home
land,especially capital,they will reconsider.
2.Dunt be a sitting cat and skinned!!Act like a tiger!! -
With reference to posting by sgf,
1. One shud never underestimate the capability of a weapon system such as Twardy. After all it has a 125 mm gun and a state of the art French fire control system. At the ranges ( probably less than 1500 m > 90 % of the time ) encountered in this part of the world, it wud be difficult to miss a target such as a Leo 2. Also remembering that the Leo 2 ( as it is now ) does not have the latest armor, a 125 mm round will make a nice hole in Leo 2's armor. Also, the Twardy has ERA.
2. Malaysia I believe has already purchased 2 Scorpenes from France. The subs are also state of the art & are certainly a force to reckon with.
3. MIG29s were designed specifically to counter the F16. Against the
F16s in a one to one dogfight using R 73 and HMS, they outclass the F16. The West was shocked back in the early nineties when the Lufwaffer's MIG29s outfought F16s by a very wide margin.
4. One must not forget that Russian weapons in the 1973 ME war did very well against Western weaponry. SA 6s shot A4s and F4s out of the sky, AT3s knocked out Centurions and M60s and T55s and T62s knocked out M60s.
Also, recently in the Lebanon conflict, Russian ATGMs knocked out Merkavas.
5. Quite a number of Russian weaponry is innovative and effective especially if used by competent soldiers. There are actually many Russian weapons which outclass Western ones. -
2.ya,never under estimate.Originally posted by glock:With reference to posting by sgf,
1. One shud never underestimate the capability of a weapon system such as Twardy. After all it has a 125 mm gun and a state of the art French fire control system. At the ranges ( probably less than 1500 m > 90 % of the time ) encountered in this part of the world, it wud be difficult to miss a target such as a Leo 2. Also remembering that the Leo 2 ( as it is now ) does not have the latest armor, a 125 mm round will make a nice hole in Leo 2's armor. Also, the Twardy has ERA.
...................
Thats why we cant cut defense spending.
They cant maintain public housing in JB.
Do u think they caN MAINTAIN a complicated jet?
I maintain:
The performance of any platform come from.
Machines---the design and max capacity
Men---how they are trained,morale,....
Maintenance---u miss a screw and machine cant work.
...................Depends on Men
3.30% of MY Adnan APC idle
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I don't think those statistics are entirely accurate. a more accurate gauge would be something like Jane's Sentinel or something. If i'm not wrong, japan continues to spend more money than china on defence expenditure.
On Singaporean defence expenditure, I don't believe we have much of a choice in our spending. We may have a huge number of reserves to call up but how many can we reliably field? It's not like we'll be sending all 400,000 rushing across the causeway. so we're stuck with 20,000 regulars and some of our more reliable reserves (compared to malaysia's 100,000) and having to spend money on expensive equipment. let's not forget that man for man the malaysian soldiers are better than us (though we arguably beat them in terms of systems).
even our equipment doesn't give us a decisive edge. in our hands, artillery is nothing more than a tactical weapon but in the hands of our neighbours it is a strategic weapon. we may in event of a war manage to push forward to KL and gain strategic depth but the malaysians will still be able to bleed us with non-conventional tactics.
so we're stuck trying to build us some sort of edge by spending more money on equipment. hopefully with the friendly abdullah administration we'll be able to divert more money from defence spending.
oh yar, i think a large amount of the difference comes from the fact that malaysians are paid pittance compared to us. if we take into accout purchasing price parity, we might not be spending that much more money. -
1. We don't know what sort of modifications will be done with the Leopard 2A4s or whether or not they will be upgraded to A5 standard or not. Moreover, the Leopard 2s were armored with the same armor as the Challenger etc. Back in the Gulf war, some Challengers took hits from 125mm rounds but survived. ERA armour, unless it is the latest ERA from Russia, which I'm not sure if the Poles had the latest technology, is not very effective against KE rounds. Moreover, Western MBTs were always offered more protection for the crews than Russian MBTs.Originally posted by glock:With reference to posting by sgf,
1. One shud never underestimate the capability of a weapon system such as Twardy. After all it has a 125 mm gun and a state of the art French fire control system. At the ranges ( probably less than 1500 m > 90 % of the time ) encountered in this part of the world, it wud be difficult to miss a target such as a Leo 2. Also remembering that the Leo 2 ( as it is now ) does not have the latest armor, a 125 mm round will make a nice hole in Leo 2's armor. Also, the Twardy has ERA.
2. Malaysia I believe has already purchased 2 Scorpenes from France. The subs are also state of the art & are certainly a force to reckon with.
3. MIG29s were designed specifically to counter the F16. Against the
F16s in a one to one dogfight using R 73 and HMS, they outclass the F16. The West was shocked back in the early nineties when the Lufwaffer's MIG29s outfought F16s by a very wide margin.
4. One must not forget that Russian weapons in the 1973 ME war did very well against Western weaponry. SA 6s shot A4s and F4s out of the sky, AT3s knocked out Centurions and M60s and T55s and T62s knocked out M60s.
Also, recently in the Lebanon conflict, Russian ATGMs knocked out Merkavas.
5. Quite a number of Russian weaponry is innovative and effective especially if used by competent soldiers. There are actually many Russian weapons which outclass Western ones.
2. Scorpenes are good, and I wonder when we will go grab some German submarines.
3. MIG29s are admittedly good, though I think their advantage will be somewhat negated if our F-16s are linked up with our AEW aircraft.
4. Do the M'sians have the latest Kornets and RPG-27?
5. Well, this baby looks cool: http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/h/i/himmelwerft/sau.jpg -
I never said the M'sians were a push over. I'm merely saying that some ppl should not belittle the SAF. Leo 2, Sjoormen et al are far from the best but like I said, they sure as heck are not worthless pieces of crap either.
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No one is belittling SAF. But one also must not think SAF is so good just by looking at its hardware and systems. No contest that SAF has good hardware and systems.
Good hardware & systems do not count for much if the man behind them do not have the will , hardiness & determination to fight. -
It would be interesting to see defence expenditure as a percentage of GDP and as a percentage of government budget. Also interesting to see is defence spending per capita, spending per soldier and spending per sq feet.
Hard figures as such are not really conclusive. -
Only a fool would over-estimate his own capabilities. But if a S'porean himself has so little faith in the armed forces which is supposed to protect him, you can flush Psychological Defence (one of the 5 aspects of Total Defence) down the drain. And if even the SAF soldier himself thinks his own army & own toys suck, how is he going to competently defend his soil?Originally posted by glock:No one is belittling SAF. But one also must not think SAF is so good just by looking at its hardware and systems. No contest that SAF has good hardware and systems.
Good hardware & systems do not count for much if the man behind them do not have the will , hardiness & determination to fight.
No one said whopping the MAF's arse is going to be a walk in the park. But likewise, I doubt the MAF is gonna run roughshod over us like a 20 year old boy beating up a 4 year old toddler either. -
I used to think that our neighbour north is the aggressor...but after a while, i realise, the our enemy can be from anyway NSEW, so yeah just dont always use "M-state" as bashing zone.
After doing some searching on their military inventories, modern sams(scary), atgm(very scary), artillery(extremely scary), MLRS(OMFG!). Their weapon mediums may differ (rus and et al) but those weaponry's capabilities are very comparable to what we have. In all three defence field, their weapons are even the same! AIM-120cs, 155mm, 25mm, harpoon, exocet, oto 76mm rapid, igla, rapier, oelikon 35mm, 84mm blah blah blah.
They can sting us badly if we make a wrong move. <---The point here is of course every soldier who dies is an NS-man Singaporean so losses must be as minimal as possible.
We have a pretty good army with pretty good tech and stuff. We have trained men and we have much too lose if even an inch of our land is taken. That's our weakness and hence why we need to be ahead of everyone else of our region.
That's the real picture in a sense isnt it? -
We all know that our NS man has the guts, determination , grit , fighting spirit, will power, hardiness, intelligence ( thinking soldier comes to mind ), knowledge, skills & finally .......hardware to overcome the enemy when the time comes right ? Anyone who doubts above has not gone thru NS & reservist training. -
Seems like we are all set then. No one will entertain anything different. Wish I can be as confident as you guys.
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I still think we should have cruise missiles. With sub that can launch cruise missiles lagi best. While we fight for our lives, also make sure our enemies capital and major cities have sufficient damage to hold them back. Maybe after we launch enough satellite then can consider ba. Can China back us up as well?
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why would china back us up?do they have much interests in what goes on so far away from their borders?
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I'll throw a spanner into the works.
What if we and our northern neighbour have to fight alongside each other one day against an external aggressor?
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Why not? China is a worthy friend to its allies, from its track record. From the Korean War to the brief invasion of Vietnam, more often than not, it did not hesitate to fight on the basis of principle. It keeps its promises and does not scrimp on the costs. You can't say the same of most Western powers.
