American Blue-on-Blue Aircraft C ockpit video Leaked.
-
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,11021-10043,00.html
[Works best in IE. Some problems with loading in FF]
This is the cockpit video of an incident where 2 american aircrafts fired upon a british convoy, killing 1 and injuring 4 british troops in Iraq.
Some BG: It was agreed amongst coalition forces that friendlies should have Orange panels on top of their vehicles. They pilots seemed to know that. I think the pilots also radioed in the wrong location. Hence, the Forward Air controller said there were no friendlies in the area. I think - need to listen again.
An interesting point, the US has failed, beyond releasing this video to the British MOD, to allow the pilots involved to be identified and to attend inquiries.
IMO, the pilots should be identified and charged. They very clearly knew what orange panels were for, but, upon being told there were no friendlies in the area, neglected to confirm their targets. Thery were therefore either very badly trained (in vehicle recognition) or very negligent.
Sigh...
RIP Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull. -
video is up!
-
x2Originally posted by Pitot:is it just me or, there is no video?
-
Sorry, I used the img tag instead of the url tag.
-
Its sad, i pity the pilots.
they checked to see if they were friendlies..
they must have felt real guilty. real guilty.
and the long journey back to base just adds on to the agony. -
IMO the orange panels were not a clear enough indication to the pilots.
They repeatedly identified the panels as orange and IF they knew that friendlies were having orange rooftops, it MAY not have happened.
This does not disclose the fact that the iraqi's themselves cant put orange rooftops.
Further confusion, the embedded USMC Foward ATC later revealed to the pilots that there may be friendlies with YELLOW roof panels. Irregardless of the difference in colours, the pilots knew they were F***ed.
As in many tragedies, NO single fault can be used to fully blame the disaster.
It is a MULTIPLE of errors which resulted in the worst.
US side
1) the pilots have no idea as to what the friendlies were going to use to represent themselves.
2) the pilots seems lost to me as they were supposed to be in a nofire zone.
3) both are reservist pilots who have not seen any action. (to me i dont see any wrong with it)
4)The USMC controller embedded with the british troops seemed to have a lack of communication with the troops on ground.
5) Why are the pilots not trained to identify british armoured vehicles? They even mentioned that it looked like the iraqi missile launcher..............
6) The pilot FIRED WITHOUT PERMISSION.
British side
1) Nvr update on location.
Everyone has to take blame for this incident. Not only the pilots imho.
The british also has to take blame for not feeding enough info or real timely updated info to the USMC controller.
Well its a war and everyone is hyped up.
Well, at least we know that the warthogs can easily destroy the british Scimitar... -
USOriginally posted by Pitot:IMO the orange panels were not a clear enough indication to the pilots.
They repeatedly identified the panels as orange and IF they knew that friendlies were having orange rooftops, it MAY not have happened.
This does not disclose the fact that the iraqi's themselves cant put orange rooftops.
Further confusion, the embedded USMC Foward ATC later revealed to the pilots that there may be friendlies with YELLOW roof panels. Irregardless of the difference in colours, the pilots knew they were F***ed.
As in many tragedies, NO single fault can be used to fully blame the disaster.
It is a MULTIPLE of errors which resulted in the worst.
US side
1) the pilots have no idea as to what the friendlies were going to use to represent themselves.
2) the pilots seems lost to me as they were supposed to be in a nofire zone.
3) both are reservist pilots who have not seen any action. (to me i dont see any wrong with it)
4)The USMC controller embedded with the british troops seemed to have a lack of communication with the troops on ground.
5) Why are the pilots not trained to identify british armoured vehicles? They even mentioned that it looked like the iraqi missile launcher..............
6) The pilot FIRED WITHOUT PERMISSION.
British side
1) Nvr update on location.
Everyone has to take blame for this incident. Not only the pilots imho.
The british also has to take blame for not feeding enough info or real timely updated info to the USMC controller.
Well its a war and everyone is hyped up.
Well, at least we know that the warthogs can easily destroy the british Scimitar...
1. Yes they did or were supposed to know. They use of Orange panels arose to prevent a repeat of FF incidents in Gulf war I. Their comms suggest that they did. Plus, another agreed SOP is to pop a particular colour smoke when engaged by Friendlies. Notice the pilot remarked that smoke had been popped and then they knew what happened. That means they were briefed on the SOPs.
2. I agree. They seemed confused about where they were. AS I said, either undertrained, or negligent. They asked for confirmation but that is pointless unless they specified the area they were in precisely.
4. I am very sure there were no USMC controller embedded with british troops.
5. As I said, either undertrained or negligent.
What ppl have to realize is this isn't a case of arty firing on a location upon being given info by an arty observor. They had visual on the target, and their job is to confirm their targets before firing, regardless of what others say. They very clearly knew something was wrong as evidenced by the number of times they mentioned the orange panels. The other guy even queried the identification of the panels as rockets ("Orange Rockets?").
----
1. I do not know anything about this. -
Now I am not saying these fools are guilty. I am saying there should not be a cover up by the USAF about this. They say this is classified FFS! Have some sense of responsiblity man! One of your allies died here!
The pilots should however be broought to the stand and be judged by their peers. They should also have been ordered to attend the british inquiry.
The video imo clearly shows doubt in their minds. They had eyes-on but decided instead to rely on what an FAC who can't see what is happening to extinguish their doubts. That imo is unprofessional. Enough to be negligent? Nobody knows do they because of the cover up. -
More on this particular Blue on Blue.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200303/31/eng20030331_114295.shtml
I had no idea Steven Gerrard was also a tankee.
This is a transcript of communications between the various elements involved.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/06/video.transcript/index.html
Before the incident, the A-10s were assisting with the shifting of artillery fire. Pilots callsigned POPOV35, and POPOV36 were in direct communication with MANILA HOTEL, providing eyes on for previous impacts. POPOV36 then spotted a formation of 4 ship vehicles with orange panels.
Note, average interval for communication transmission is 4.5 secs.1336.57 POPOV36:
MANILA HOTEL had to relay information to whichever artillery unit that was there, AND had to check whether there are friendlies in the area. Yet, within average communication interval, MANILA HOTEL was able to confirm that there were no friendlies?
Hey, I got a four ship. Looks like we got orange panels on them though. Do we have any friendlies up in this area?
1337.03 MANILA HOTEL:
I understand that was north 800 metres.
1337.12 MANILA HOTEL:
POPOV, understand that was north 800 metres?
1337.[B]16[/B] POPOV35:
Confirm, north 800 metres. Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground.
1337.[B]21[/B] MANILA HOTEL:
That is an affirm. [B]You are well clear of friendlies.[/B]
POPOV35 notes the vehicles match Zil-135 flatbed trucks. MANILA HOTEL then comments that it matches with intelligence.
In any case, the A-10 flight then verified that MANILA34, a 2nd Marine FAC was not bringing F18s on the 4 vehicles. The A-10 flight then began to attack the "Orange Rocket" launchers...
What is interesting though is, how a Zil-135
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIL-135
Could look like a Scimitar Armored vehicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV107_Scimitar
The attack was carried out with the A-10s tank killing guns, which destroyed 2 of the scimitar fighting vehicles.
The A-10 flight was then informed by LIGHTNING34, another Marine FAC that there ARE friendlies in the area, contrary to MANILA HOTEL. Subsequently, LIGHTNING34 informs POPOV34 of their BLUE on BLUE.
I think there are too many aspects of this incident that resulted in the tragic fratricide.
1. MANILA HOTEL seemed a little over-worked.
2. MANILA HOTEL didn't seem to be aware of what POPOV34 was communicating besides the artillery shifts.
3. MANILA HOTEL may not have genuinely checked for any updates of whether there are friendlies in the area.
4. POPOV34 didn't seem to carry any Mavericks or any other weapon that could be used as an optical aid, TV-IR sensors etc.
5. A-10 Pilots favoring to use their "God"-like guns that shred MBTs to cheese. Ego thing.
6. Somehow, it never occurred to POPOV35, 36, and MANILA HOTEL that ORANGE rockets makes no sense.
Sad incident. The pilots are not totally to blame.
This is not the first of A-10 friendly fire incidents.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2004/a-10-friendly-fire_centcom29mar2004.htm
US Marines attacked by A-10s as well. If the American aviators can accidentally attack American units, due to lapse of communication, faulty intelligence and poor judgment, I am not surprised the British encountered the same problem.
Another important note, at the time where these friendly fire incidents occurred, there was a shortage of trained Marine FACs. -
Hey, good post. What really riles me is that this nonsense has happened before in GW1, at least!Originally posted by Shotgun:More on this particular Blue on Blue.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200303/31/eng20030331_114295.shtml
I had no idea Steven Gerrard was also a tankee.
This is a transcript of communications between the various elements involved.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/06/video.transcript/index.html
Before the incident, the A-10s were assisting with the shifting of artillery fire. Pilots callsigned POPOV35, and POPOV36 were in direct communication with MANILA HOTEL, providing eyes on for previous impacts. POPOV36 then spotted a formation of 4 ship vehicles with orange panels.
Note, average interval for communication transmission is 4.5 secs.
MANILA HOTEL had to relay information to whichever artillery unit that was there, AND had to check whether there are friendlies in the area. Yet, within average communication interval, MANILA HOTEL was able to confirm that there were no friendlies?
POPOV35 notes the vehicles match Zil-135 flatbed trucks. MANILA HOTEL then comments that it matches with intelligence.
In any case, the A-10 flight then verified that MANILA34, a 2nd Marine FAC was not bringing F18s on the 4 vehicles. The A-10 flight then began to attack the "Orange Rocket" launchers...
What is interesting though is, how a Zil-135
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIL-135
Could look like a Scimitar Armored vehicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV107_Scimitar
The attack was carried out with the A-10s tank killing guns, which destroyed 2 of the scimitar fighting vehicles.
The A-10 flight was then informed by LIGHTNING34, another Marine FAC that there ARE friendlies in the area, contrary to MANILA HOTEL. Subsequently, LIGHTNING34 informs POPOV34 of their BLUE on BLUE.
I think there are too many aspects of this incident that resulted in the tragic fratricide.
1. MANILA HOTEL seemed a little over-worked.
2. MANILA HOTEL didn't seem to be aware of what POPOV34 was communicating besides the artillery shifts.
3. MANILA HOTEL may not have genuinely checked for any updates of whether there are friendlies in the area.
4. POPOV34 didn't seem to carry any Mavericks or any other weapon that could be used as an optical aid, TV-IR sensors etc.
5. A-10 Pilots favoring to use their "God"-like guns that shred MBTs to cheese. Ego thing.
6. Somehow, it never occurred to POPOV35, 36, and MANILA HOTEL that ORANGE rockets makes no sense.
Sad incident. The pilots are not totally to blame.
This is not the first of A-10 friendly fire incidents.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2004/a-10-friendly-fire_centcom29mar2004.htm
US Marines attacked by A-10s as well. If the American aviators can accidentally attack American units, due to lapse of communication, faulty intelligence and poor judgment, I am not surprised the British encountered the same problem.
Another important note, at the time where these friendly fire incidents occurred, there was a shortage of trained Marine FACs.
I too am puzzled as to how they could mistake a scimitar for a Zil. And as to why they seemed so eager to extinguish their doubts. Looking at the transcript they clearly have doubt in their minds - witness eg the constant querying of the orange panels.
This was imo avoidable and therefore cannot be filed away as an accident. In fact, some of the british soldiers even said they could see the pilot's faces!!!
Overtired, undertrained, over-eager or what?
More than that the US is refusing to cooperate with the BRitish inquiry. That, to me, is just wrong. If one of my relatives/kin/men died here and this is the American response, I really would be very very pissed.
Btw, I do feel sorry for the pilots as well though. You can hear their remorse when they realized their balls up. -
Manila Hotel is also a FAC?Originally posted by scabstermooch:4. I am very sure there were no USMC controller embedded with british troops.
Popov was the call sign for the A10s.
Sky Chief is an AWACS aircraft.
Costa58 was the british aircraft nearby who relayed the mayday msg.
Anyway, Operation Iraqi freedom had a couple of high profile incidents too.
The convoy of US Special forces with BBC journalist travelling with them got Bombed and there were fatalities too. -
An FAC may have been told that the convoy was being fired upon but I do not believe they were embedded with that convoy.Originally posted by Pitot:Manila Hotel is also a FAC?
Popov was the call sign for the A10s.
Sky Chief is an AWACS aircraft.
Costa58 was the british aircraft nearby who relayed the mayday msg.
Anyway, Operation Iraqi freedom had a couple of high profile incidents too.
The convoy of US Special forces with BBC journalist travelling with them got Bombed and there were fatalities too. -
From the article u posted, it mentioned that a USMC FAC was embedded to nearby british forces. No it was not with that convoy that got attacked.Originally posted by scabstermooch:An FAC may have been told that the convoy was being fired upon but I do not believe they were embedded with that convoy. -
Btw, had a look at the relevant thread on militaryphotos.net.
Contrary to what I expected, they seemed to be looking at the incident in a measure manner rather than going "Too bad, sh it happens"
My faith in the Yank military community is rising (not so for their pilots though).
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103967&page=11 -
Yah...there was probably someone to liaise with the US troops.Originally posted by Pitot:From the article u posted, it mentioned that a USMC FAC was embedded to nearby british forces. No it was not with that convoy that got attacked.
Actually, the thread on MIlitaryphotos make for a very good read. Some have suggested that the Pilots' poor comms procedure caused the FAC to be confused.
the first few lines of dialogue indicate they were in the process of engaging targets before the video clip begins. The pilots are initially referring to "vehicles in reverts" which I assume to be slang for revetments (which implies the vehicles are in stationary, built up positions) 800 meters to the north of the previous artillery impact points. 35 calls to adjust artillery fires on these targets.
At the same time 35 is trying to adjust artillery, 36 spots a convoy of vehicles headed towards a village. A time critical target of opportunity; if they are to engage, they need to before the convoy reaches the village and before they reach BINGO fuel. He asks about friendlies in the area because he does indeed spot orange ID panels on the vehicles.
35 Repeats the query about friendlies, adding "this far north", as he confirms the artillery shift. He has apparently not yet spotted the convoy 36 is referring to (as indicated by confusion later in the dialogue).
The FAC apparently believes 35 is asking about friendlies in the area he's shifting the artillery to (the vehicles in revetments) and says they are well clear of friendlies.
Then...
- 36 spends a few minutes trying to show 35 where the convoy is.
- After a few minutes (no clear indication 35 was able to find the convoy) 35's attention seems to shift back to the vehicles in revetments and the artillery. He's talking to the FAC about where that artillery is....
- 36, whose attention is still on the convoy, tells 35 to raise his right wing (banking the aircraft so he can see the convoy)
- 35 gets angry, says he knows, and goes back to talking to the FAC
- 36 says they have orange rockets on them
- 35 tries to take a look
- 35 starts talking about fuel
- 36 wants to kill them before they reach town
-The FAC asks if they can go crimson (which I assume means in hot) but does he know what they're going after?
I ask, because AFTER the two passes, the FAC says...
Quote:
1343.13 MANILA HOTEL:
POPOV 36 from MANILA HOTEL, guns . . .
1343.17 MANILA HOTEL:
To engage those targets in the revetts (slopes).
Why is the FAC still talking about the targets in revetments?
Can the FAC hear the inter-cockpit communication between the pilots? If not, then if you look at the dialogue, the last thing the FAC knew was the pilots were talking about engaging vehicles in revetments -- which includes the time they were asking about friendlies. Which also indicates that when the FAC asked if they could go crimson, he was referring to the vehicles in revetments, whereas the pilots understood it to mean against the convoy. -
Wondering why the Brits armoured column didn't do what the SAS does, which is when Allied Aircrafts overfly them, to put up orange panels and unfurl the Union Jack. I'm sure the Union Jack would have made it more distinct that as compared to an orange panel.
I'm also surprised...wtf was that pilot thinking...ORANGE ROCKETS?!!! -
I agree wrt to poor comms procedures. Viewing the transcript alone, I wouldn't have any idea if the pilots were communicating to the FAC or chatting among themselves.
However, I do not believe that when MANILA HOTEL said, "can you switch to CRIMSON", was there any permission for POPOV34 to roll in hot. Nor was there expressed permission for POPOV34 to engage the orange rockets.
It did seem to me though that during 1341:32 to 1343:13, MANILA HOTEL had surprisingly little communication with POPOV34. It also seems to me that POPOV34 largely ignored MANILA HOTEL during that time period of 2 minutes while they carried out the attack.
It might just be possible that the 2 pilots hard shut out MANILA HOTEL on purpose while they engaged the Orange Rockets.
SpecOp87, given how ridiculous Orange Rockets may sound, a Union Jack may not have helped.
"Look those Iraqis are waving a British flag! Them f****** are playing dirty, lets give them hell!" -
Fratricide ?
-
i wonder if there is a video onboard the the memphis when kursk sunk. that would be interesting.
-
Darn another own goal hero. The last time the SAS were shot to hell in SEA was in the Borneo during the Confrontation. What they had for identification as friendlies were the yellow patches in their headgear.
-
no action taken against the pilots..
-
Would it be because of the speeds they were traveling at? I mean an A10 is already slow, but its can't fly the way a chopper flies, so is that a possibility that if the pilots were in choppers and were able to go down for a positive ID that this sad episode would not have happened?
BTW, I don't get it...how could the pilots have mistaken the Scimitar Armored vehicles to be Zil-135? The relative sizes of both vehicles are very different. Unless it was in the early stages of the war, where there are actually enemy forces with Zil-135 vehicles or AFVs that such a mistake could happen. -
the A-10 can circle around the 'target'.. the plan will probably get shot if its really enemy..Originally posted by SpecOps87:Would it be because of the speeds they were traveling at? I mean an A10 is already slow, but its can't fly the way a chopper flies, so is that a possibility that if the pilots were in choppers and were able to go down for a positive ID that this sad episode would not have happened?
-
It seems clear to me that they talked themselves into it.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Would it be because of the speeds they were traveling at? I mean an A10 is already slow, but its can't fly the way a chopper flies, so is that a possibility that if the pilots were in choppers and were able to go down for a positive ID that this sad episode would not have happened?
BTW, I don't get it...how could the pilots have mistaken the Scimitar Armored vehicles to be Zil-135? The relative sizes of both vehicles are very different. Unless it was in the early stages of the war, where there are actually enemy forces with Zil-135 vehicles or AFVs that such a mistake could happen. -
I really doubt so. This wasn't a self-defence situation. And to be honest they were low enough. On the 2nd pass, some of the soldiers on the ground said they saw the pilots face/helmet.Originally posted by mr_sotong:the A-10 can circle around the 'target'.. the plan will probably get shot if its really enemy..
Popov 36, a LTC, is now teaching other people to fly jets. Amazing eh the USAF?
One USAF spokesman even 'reassured' the public that its reservists were trained to the same standards as its regulars. DOH!