Are Singaporean conscripts too soft?
-
I think not only are those trained by the Israelis the toughest, I would say those in the 70s till 80s, and maybe even early 90s have it bad too. Training softened gradually with the introduction of SFI food, SAF hotline, lighter helmets... And the abolishment of log PT and corporate punishments (at certain hours).Originally posted by nanren4ever:I think only the first few batches trained by the Israeli soldiers deserve to say that their training is the most siong. Other than that, we can be considered pampered liao.
But then again, I guess that's the problems with us humans. We think we suffered the most, when actually, there will always be people who are worst off than us.
The SAF began to slacken from mid-late 90s onwards if you ask me. -
I think as some has pointed out already... being tough and strict are not the only ways to win the war.
The softer, less disciplined "western soldiers" eventually won the war from the supposedly "harder" and more "disciplined" German and Japanese troops in WW2.
Winning a war goes beyond sheer toughness (but it's a useful asset). Given our populace and mentality, trying to make recruits factory-stamped pawns that are expendable are long since past. -
With all due respect to someone who has gone through NS, butOriginally posted by Theballstopshere:corporate punishments
-
With all due respects but..erm... what do you expect from "theballstopshere"?Originally posted by ArdusKane:With all due respect to someone who has gone through NS, but
Sorry, couldn't resist that one.
I have images of change parade by you fall-in in business suit and tie. And then pasar malam the contents of your briefcase. Then you'd be forced to run and touch the photostat machine and then do a powerpoint presentation while doing push-ups. -
Originally posted by moca:
With all due respects but..erm... what do you expect from "the[b]ballstopshere"?
Sorry, couldn't resist that one.
I have images of change parade by you fall-in in business suit and tie. And then pasar malam the contents of your briefcase. Then you'd be forced to run and touch the photostat machine and then do a powerpoint presentation while doing push-ups.[/b] -
I agree modern battles are not won with brute force alone. However, I dun believe anyone here is going to say an average US marine is physically and mentally weak.Originally posted by moca:Compare average Singapore NSF infantryman with average Thai, PLA, Indonesian infantryman.
We are not soft compared to them meh? C'mon, don't kid yourself.
These other guys grew up in the countryside. Their training is tough, dangerous and often, they get involved in real firefights. And being physically beaten by superior is part of life.
I am not belittling SAF.
But as the Chinese saying goes: one has to recognise one's own strength and weaknesses.
But not being physically tough doesn't that mean we will lose a fight.
We can still win through discipline, weaponry and tactics.
But if you want to talk strictly about physical and mental toughness, then we ain't it.
Israel, for example, uses a lot of reservists during war whom are surely not the fittest, toughest soldiers - being yanked suddenly from civi street. But through being well-trained, motivated, superior weaponry and tactics, they helped win many wars.
Often, well-trained (watever this means), motivated soldiers with superior weaponry and even good tactics can break down due to lack of physical and mental toughness.
If soldiers (and officers) in the field are not physically and mentally ready to handle battlefield stress, all training, IQ, education, 3G technologies, weapons, equipment etc are useless.. -
It's the culture that breeds a country's citizens I guess.
Asians are stereotyped to be honourable, disciplined, well-mannered.
Caucasians are stereotyped to be cocky, daring.
Such pure breeds get the full strengths of their culture. Singapore? We have a mix of everything. If we mix the right stuff, we can be supermen, but that isn't the case now.
Look at the bulk of the gaming community in Singapore. We will be entering NS in a few years time. Most of us, I am sad to say, totally CMI in terms of being a person. I can also truthfully say I am not one of them.
If you can't be a good person, can you be a good soldier? Or is the most effective soldier a drone that has no emotions, like a cyborg assigned to a mission? -
What the Americans lack in Iraq is a believable cause.Originally posted by siaokao:I agree modern battles are not won with brute force alone. However, I dun believe anyone here is going to say an average US marine is physically and mentally weak.
Often, well-trained (watever this means), motivated soldiers with superior weaponry and even good tactics can break down due to lack of physical and mental toughness.
If soldiers (and officers) in the field are not physically and mentally ready to handle battlefield stress, all training, IQ, education, 3G technologies, weapons, equipment etc are useless..
As was the case in Vietnam and even Korea.
But in WW2, where all the American troops were conscripts? Man... they produced heroes by the busloads and won the war.
All because they believed what they were doing was right.
And I believed that however weak we are, once Singapore is threatened, even the weakest soldiers will improve. -
I believe that both conscripts and regular armies have their own unique strength and weaknesses. We also cannot argue the fact that hill-billy will definitely trash a city bred kid in combat......
Back in my NSF days, I have the chance to train with Royal Thai army. These man are from the King's Guards airborne battalion and they are made up of entriely regulars and all of them have many years of airborne operation experience. Even the platoon medic being a few yrs older than us, is airborne trained with many jumps, and the entire battalion on the whole is very fit, tough, especially fighting in vegetations in LCK, their attacks are solid and rapid.
But..........when it comes to Fibua, they totally suck. Most of them looked confused, lost, and were literally running abt without adequate fire-cover. They clear rooms very slowly, thus giving the opfor to escape to other connecting rooms.
Thus, can we say SAF troops are weak just bcos we are getting wad the lao jiao seems as weak training? NO! Why are coy acting as the enemy managed to kill so many of their troops, is bcos, many of us are motivated to 'give the thais' a hard time, thus we went through many creative ways to attack them, that includes hiding in large drains, water towers and in the structures of a playground. SAF didn't put this in the training manuals, but we did it with our own initiative.
In fact, we are so effective that the Thai observing officer is overly impress, and the umpire have to call our MG to cease fire to let the thais move in, as the MG killed too many of them......... We also have very little Fibua training prior to that exercise. -
Actually I don't think we will know the true mettle of the SAF until the bullets start flying like in Black Hawk Down...
What we can hope is that the training we are giving our soldiers equips them with the proper skills to survive and respond in a battle, that they will not break ranks, or cower in fear and cry for mommy.
But it's another thing entirely to say that our conscripts must and will break under stress just because the training now is not as abusive as that of last time... that is another question entirely.
I think I fear more the bad choices that upper brass will make rather then the ground level troops not having the will to fight. -
wah, very impressive... you from si mi unit ah? Infantry or Guards etc...?Originally posted by equlus84:In fact, we are so effective that the Thai observing officer is overly impress, and the umpire have to call our MG to cease fire to let the thais move in, as the MG killed too many of them......... We also have very little Fibua training prior to that exercise. -
I was from 3rd GDS. We really give the Thais a hard time as they have never seen or encounter such high rise high density residential areas before in their lives. A M16 sharpshooter hiding in rubbish dump area cum a MG at the void deck of the HDB was all it takes to stop them in their path.Originally posted by moca:wah, very impressive... you from si mi unit ah? Infantry or Guards etc...? -
I don't get you, care to elaborate?Originally posted by ArdusKane:With all due respect to someone who has gone through NS, but -
The explanation is just below your previous post.Originally posted by Theballstopshere:I don't get you, care to elaborate?
-
Originally posted by ArdusKane:
Speaking of gaming communities.. soldiers today do have faster reaction time and are able to multitask while doing missions.
It's the culture that breeds a country's citizens I guess.
Asians are stereotyped to be honourable, disciplined, well-mannered.
Caucasians are stereotyped to be co[b]cky, daring.
Such pure breeds get the full strengths of their culture. Singapore? We have a mix of everything. If we mix the right stuff, we can be supermen, but that isn't the case now.
Look at the bulk of the gaming community in Singapore. We will be entering NS in a few years time. Most of us, I am sad to say, totally CMI in terms of being a person. I can also truthfully say I am not one of them.
If you can't be a good person, can you be a good soldier? Or is the most effective soldier a drone that has no emotions, like a cyborg assigned to a mission?[/b]
Oh, and read Generation Kill. It's interesting. -
Oh so you are saying that you agree with the points made in that particular post? If so, then I think you need to read the topic header again. The TS asked if "Singaporean conscripts are too soft?", not "Are metting out tough and strict punishments to soldiers an important criteria to winning a war?." My post was responding directly to the former question while yours was trying to jump the gun by answering the latter.Originally posted by ArdusKane:The explanation is just below your previous post.
You get it now??
As I said in my earlier post, i agree that our soldiers are getting soft due in part to the direction that SAF has taken. No one can dispute that. There is no way recruits in this day and age and be compared to recruits in the 70s, 80, and even 90s in terms of mental and physical fortitude.
I could also go on to debunk some of the points in that post that you quoted, one of which is the fact that "western soldiers" are softer and less disciplined than the Germans and Japs. This is itself a fallacy. Read up more war books and memoirs if you will please.
I do agree that the ability to win a war in this modern age goes beyond undergoing tough training. It is also about integration and sophistication of weapon systems, the ability of war planners, and the quality of the men out in the fields and other points.
But as I had stated earlier, what I replied was in response the to TS's topic and not about anything else. Go read again. Your reply is out of tangent. -
I believe he is referring to the term you use in your earlier post.. "corporate punishments". Dun think its the correct term.Originally posted by Theballstopshere:Oh so you are saying that you agree with the points made in that particular post? If so, then I think you need to read the topic header again. The TS asked if "Singaporean conscripts are too soft?", not "Are metting out tough and strict punishments to soldiers an important criteria to winning a war?." My post was responding directly to the former question while yours was trying to jump the gun by answering the latter.
You get it now??
As I said in my earlier post, i agree that our soldiers are getting soft due in part to the direction that SAF has taken. No one can dispute that. There is no way recruits in this day and age and be compared to recruits in the 70s, 80, and even 90s in terms of mental and physical fortitude.
I could also go on to debunk some of the points in that post that you quoted, one of which is the fact that "western soldiers" are softer and less disciplined than the Germans and Japs. This is itself a fallacy. Read up more war books and memoirs if you will please.
I do agree that the ability to win a war in this modern age goes beyond undergoing tough training. It is also about integration and sophistication of weapon systems, the ability of war planners, and the quality of the men out in the fields and other points.
But as I had stated earlier, what I replied was in response the to TS's topic and not about anything else. Go read again. Your reply is out of tangent.
-
That was a typo. I meant corporal punishments. Well, if he wants to nitpick.
-
i think a large amount of the population would flee the country when a war breaks out.
-
How can they flee when we are surrounded by water, and the only ways out are either via the causeway (to a possibly hostile nation that is at worst the enemy in war or at least reluctant to accept the social problems associated by refugees), or via the airport (which would most likely be shut down or even at best unable to deal with the outflux)?Originally posted by kwlee:i think a large amount of the population would flee the country when a war breaks out.
Unless you all decide to leave like months before the outbreak of hostilities (hence leaving everything you have behind), you will have to suck thumb and get invaded or fight. I for one doubt that Singapore is exactly the kind that sits around with simmering tensions and war mongering for long without doing something to tilt it in either way. -
if you guys wanted to give the thais a hard timethen shouldn't show them sure tactics so they remain weak.Originally posted by equlus84:I believe that both conscripts and regular armies have their own unique strength and weaknesses. We also cannot argue the fact that hill-billy will definitely trash a city bred kid in combat......
Back in my NSF days, I have the chance to train with Royal Thai army. These man are from the King's Guards airborne battalion and they are made up of entriely regulars and all of them have many years of airborne operation experience. Even the platoon medic being a few yrs older than us, is airborne trained with many jumps, and the entire battalion on the whole is very fit, tough, especially fighting in vegetations in LCK, their attacks are solid and rapid.
But..........when it comes to Fibua, they totally suck. Most of them looked confused, lost, and were literally running abt without adequate fire-cover. They clear rooms very slowly, thus giving the opfor to escape to other connecting rooms.
Thus, can we say SAF troops are weak just bcos we are getting wad the lao jiao seems as weak training? NO! Why are coy acting as the enemy managed to kill so many of their troops, is bcos, many of us are motivated to 'give the thais' a hard time, thus we went through many creative ways to attack them, that includes hiding in large drains, water towers and in the structures of a playground. SAF didn't put this in the training manuals, but we did it with our own initiative.
In fact, we are so effective that the Thai observing officer is overly impress, and the umpire have to call our MG to cease fire to let the thais move in, as the MG killed too many of them......... We also have very little Fibua training prior to that exercise.
now that you ahve shown them then they will learn and improve.
-
Where's the fun of army if we can't complain?Originally posted by LRRP:Are Singapore conscripts too soft?
Compared to other conscripts from TW, KR, i seriously think our local soldiers got a lot of "discount" in terms of "siong" training. Compare to the training from even just say 5 years ago..Theres a LOT more mechanisation of equipment.
And yet I still see so many grumblings on sgforums and others on how "siong" the training is ah..blah blah..the food no good etc etc and how they wanna give up..
Youngsters now are just simply too pampered.. -
Tiok-LahOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Actually I don't think we will know the true mettle of the SAF until the bullets start flying like in Black Hawk Down...
What we can hope is that the training we are giving our soldiers equips them with the proper skills to survive and respond in a battle, that they will not break ranks, or cower in fear and cry for mommy.
But it's another thing entirely to say that our conscripts must and will break under stress just because the training now is not as abusive as that of last time... that is another question entirely.
I think I fear more the bad choices that upper brass will make rather then the ground level troops not having the will to fight.
-
xiang xin wo ba xin jia po.
-
wat to do when we have scholar-generals?