Are Singaporean conscripts too soft?
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Are Singapore conscripts too soft?
Compared to other conscripts from TW, KR, i seriously think our local soldiers got a lot of "discount" in terms of "siong" training. Compare to the training from even just say 5 years ago..Theres a LOT more mechanisation of equipment.
And yet I still see so many grumblings on sgforums and others on how "siong" the training is ah..blah blah..the food no good etc etc and how they wanna give up..
Youngsters now are just simply too pampered.. -
agree.
its the differences in culture of how the older generations and newer generations were brought up that's causing all these. -
KR doesn't have a sound track record, at least from their performance in 1950s Korean war.
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The same could be said for US Army Reserve volunteers. Look at the kind of people they get..
It's about us being a developed nation. With conscription, you will naturally have to accept a degradation in quality, because not everyone is keen to push themselves up to be as good as one who has the passion to serve.
Thus the need to use technology to overcome this shortcoming, and the pitfalls were seen in the recent Lebanon conflict, with unfit Israeli reservists unable to make up much ground. -
we'll only find out if war happens.
all the training is only to inculcate basic war tactics in you, other than that, u'll learn when war starts.. -
Motivation is one virtual factor, one untrained can fight to his last drip of blood when his home is threatened but even best trained professionals will be hesitated to lose one drip of blood when asked to be sent to Chaos place like Iraq.
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They did prove to be fearsome opponents by the Vietcong during the Vietnam war. ROK sent three divisions of troops to Vietnam beginning to help the Americans fight against North Vietnam. The "White Horse," "Blue Dragon," and the "Tiger" divisions totaled more than 300,000 men over a twelve year period.Originally posted by 38�Ž:KR doesn't have a sound track record, at least from their performance in 1950s Korean war.
Below is a quote from wikipedia on the ROK marine corp:
"Most of the operations never exceeded battalion-size, but they also conducted divisional size operations. Before conducting missions, Koreans laid out their plans much more carefully than their allies, with greater fire discipline, the very effective use of fire support, and better co-ordination of sub-units. They also had to their favor the distinguished combat leadership of the company and platoon commanders. During village searches, ROK soldiers would subject the settlement to a series of detailed sweeps while interrogating subjects on the spot. By comparison, American units tended to favor a single sweep followed by a removal of all civilians for screening. Such a painstaking approach certainly paid dividends in terms of weapons seizures and reduced VC activity in ROK areas. Koreans quickly learned pidgin Vietnamese language; for fear that most Vietnamese translators were spies for Vietcong and NVA. Koreans also had better field intelligence than their American counterparts. Koreans conducted counterinsurgency operations so well that American commanders felt Korean AOR was the safest. This was further supported when Vietcong documents captured after the Tet Offensive warned their compatriots to never engage Koreans until full victory is certain. In fact, it was often that the NVA and Vietcong were ambushed by Koreans and not vice versa.
Their most notable operations in Vietnam were "Operation Van Buren" and the Battle of Hoi An. During "Operation Van Buren", a ROKMC platoon of about 13 soldiers wiped out an elite North Vietnamese Army regiment, resulting in only 2 Korean casualties while more than 400 NVA soldiers were killed. The initial gun battle had devolved into bloody hand-to-hand combat. The ROKMC boasted an overall kill ratio of 25-to-1 in the Vietnam War" -
you think taiwan and south korean doesn't suffer from the same problem ? ...
theirs is a lot worse, really ! ...
in south korea, there are "maternity tours" for expecting mothers to go to the US, Canada and Australia to give birth there so as to let their sons escape military service, a common phenomenon in north america is the so-called "parachute kids" from taiwan, parents will dump their sons (and some dotters) into high school or colleges in the US or Canada and let them fend for themselves, and let them come back after the conscription period's passed, which is often a decade and a green card later .....
of all the taiwanese that I knew in the uni, only one chap has ever served in the military (airforce, and he claims the RSAF trains in taiwan also, and thinks the RSAF to be better than the RCAF :lol
, the rest were all escapees, some of whom got dumped into Canada since they were 15 ... -
I believe that most are softies, but some are really hard, those of whom come from those poor family. Most of the time, training in developed countries will be quite easy. But when war approaches, the training will get tougher and get more realistic.
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there is no threat of war in singapore, hence the softness.
korea, israel, U.S. and taiwan might go to war any minute.
on top of that, being in the army is perceived as 'nothing to be proud of' in this region. -
SAF's emphasis is on thinking soldiers..
Think only, don't dare to act. -
Just reading from all the posts of new conscripts, yes, they are too soft. What is happening to the singapore male?
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no action talk onlyOriginally posted by Nelstar:SAF's emphasis is on thinking soldiers..
Think only, don't dare to act. -
you all already said "new" conscripts what. You can't expect them to be tough-as-nails badass soldiers once they step into the armed forces. Every army will have a few sissies.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Just reading from all the posts of new conscripts, yes, they are too soft. What is happening to the singapore male? -
we mustn't read too much into it brey .... it's just that the whiners are doing the typical Singaporean thing that's all .... and for every whiner whinning on the net, there are hundreds of other chaps who quietly did their duty without fanfare, and with nary a complaint ...Originally posted by breytonhartge:Just reading from all the posts of new conscripts, yes, they are too soft. What is happening to the singapore male?
what worries me is the "Indian Chief" mentality where everyone's craving for that kitkat bar or the stripes as a resume entry ...
oh well ... I think the system's still weeding those people out pretty well ... -
Well a few sissies are bound to appear... butOriginally posted by Hellraiza:you all already said "new" conscripts what. You can't expect them to be tough-as-nails badass soldiers once they step into the armed forces. Every army will have a few sissies.
The training isn't sufficient to mould them as a real fighting force to be reckoned with.
I doubt their fighting prowess.
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I agree with some of you that Korea and Taiwan have much worse problem than us. Younger generation of Taiwanese see no point in fighting against the Chinese the other side. The wai shen ren really don't want to fight for ah bian. Korean teenagers are used to comfort and good life, and they don't believe they can fight against the north korean soldiers that are trained out of hardship. They are counting on winning the war with superior technology.
Personally i think SAF can take on any aggressor if our soldiers are united and willing to fight. -
we long to be a member of NATO.Originally posted by bladez87:no action talk only -
Not all are meant to be in the fighting line. Some are more suitable for garrison's duties.Originally posted by Nelstar:Well a few sissies are bound to appear... but
The training isn't sufficient to mould them as a real fighting force to be reckoned with.
I doubt their fighting prowess. -
With the cut in NSF time from 2 1/2 to 2 years also will not help in the training,especially that of commanders...Haiz...
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what do you do at the garrison when the enemy comes firing their weapons at you?Originally posted by (human):Not all are meant to be in the fighting line. Some are more suitable for garrison's duties. -
For every fit fighter, you have a non-combat soldier who is eqully proficient in ensuring combat data networks run smoothly, or vehicles are in working condition.
What consitutes softness? -
Actually I think this is perception based mentality that SG being a small country, far away from war zone will naturally have lax training.
I have read memoirs from a rifleman from the 28th inf div of US fighting in Europe during WW2. Most of their senior commands are made up of full timers while the junior officers and grunts are part timers. The soldier quote saying he dunno how he made it, he just came out of it alive. In his memoirs, u will be shocked at how little operational skills he learnt before going to Europe. He for example never touch before a real bazooka and did no life firing from it. They just issue a broomstick for them to simulate the bazooka. No doubt being a green horn, the division grapple their way and in turn slowly gained actual combat experiences. Of course, on the way, many soldiers perished. At least we learnt battalion movement and exercise before we ORD thats gd, for sure.
I believe wad is impt is not how much injuries or abuse one sustain during training, so as to gauge how gd the training is. It is more impt to teach the RELEVANT SOFT SKILL and RELEVANT FIGHTING TACTICS THAT IS UP TO DATE.
For example, during my time, they CO advocate shoot kill move tactics and leopard crawling in midst of chaos near enemy fire trench to conduct an assault is a veri good move, compared to the four second rule enforced in BMTC. Dun just judge some stuff by the exterior. For example, I visisted some Taiwanese military forum and read some stuff they wrote about SG conscripts. True, Taiwanese troopers are beefier and have greater physical strength. But they admit basic infantry tactics like patrols, local defense are much weaker than us. Another guy quote their artillery drills are slower to fire the first shot and their system is not that efficient. -
If that is really the case, it would be great.Originally posted by LazerLordz:For every fit fighter, you have a non-combat soldier who is eqully proficient in ensuring combat data networks run smoothly, or vehicles are in working condition.
What consitutes softness?
Unfortunately the combat fit soldiers are now inadequately trained. I don't think they are soft.
The physical conditioning of the soldiers is lacking. -
If you measure it by looking at recruits, it's to be expected. The role of BMTC has changed into a place where civilians are slowly integrated into military life. BMTC does not make soldiers, it makes military trainees, to prepare them for further advanced/vocational training which will transform them into soldiers.Originally posted by Nelstar:If that is really the case, it would be great.
Unfortunately the combat fit soldiers are now inadequately trained. I don't think they are soft.
The physical conditioning of the soldiers is lacking.
I don't see tankees, arty gunners coming here to complain much.