Fire-trench VS shell-scrape
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I believe those who did before NS will noe wad are the 2 things are mentioned above and most probably dugged many in your NS time. This qn have struck me for very long time. You see, shell-scrape is a shallow defensive dug in while fire trench is deeper dug in. The problem is, with our neighbours getting more and more pieces of tube guns or artillery and that artillery rounds are getting more and more destructive in terms of accuracy and the ability of releasing flechettes, is our shell-scrape still sufficient in terms of defensive works? I mean if you watched band of brothers, you will see one of the episode in which the German artillery shell wounded and killed many members in the E coy, thus is shell-scrape sufficient? Another issue is, for those who trained with foreign troops, do the foreigners dig fire trench or do they dig shell-scrape.
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Anything less than a concrete bunker is inadequate!
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it's always dig nth less than a fire trench.
only if u do not have enough time do u dig a shellscrape. dig that finish and start on ur fire trench
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Well, I would say that a shellscrape is still better than nothing at all. It does go some way to protect you from shrapnel. After all, it can be dug within thirty minutes depending on the soil type - highly suitable for hasty defence missions.
Otherwise, when it comes to deliberate defence, fire trenches are absolutely essential. Just be sure to dig the shellscrapes first so that you can have some protection if an arty bombardment comes while you're busy digging the fire trench. -
30MINS?!!!!
freak i toook 4 hours!!! Dry... Hard... Clay... and rocks under the clay!! >.< -
I think there was a study done.... apparently shell scrape will decrease casualties from arty shelling significantly... like a factor of 60% or something....
definitely worth the time,
but will not save "everyone" from being killed or injured... for example if your platoon is in the open, maybe will lose 15 out of 40 men.
If your platoon in shellscape. maybe lose 8 out of 40 men.
If your platoon in trenches with overhead protection, maybe lose 2 out of 40.
Btw, when watching the movie Jarhead... the USMC will dig a mini shell scrape before sleeping in them at night.... -
Originally posted by fudgester:
I agree, i think when under artillery bombardment even a slight depression in the ground you will want to go in! Since you can't run away from it with all the sharpnel flying,then hide from it.
Well, I would say that a shellscrape is still better than nothing at all. It does go some way to protect you from shrapnel. After all, it can be dug within thirty minutes depending on the soil type - highly suitable for hasty defence missions.
Otherwise, when it comes to deliberate defence, fire trenches are absolutely essential. Just be sure to dig the shellscrapes first so that you can have some protection if an arty bombardment comes while you're busy digging the fire trench.
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what if air burst how ? ...
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Does not matter in such an advance year. The latest typr of artillary shells can primed with laser and can exploded with proximity fused. Meaning it can explode in the air before hitting the ground and can kill i large area. so if your shell scrape is in the kill zone ... bye bye... see u again next life.
As for the Fire-Trench... do you think the roof we create or pack can withstand the type of pounding of artillary shell ?
The use of Shell Scrape and Fire-Trench is for the old days battle human vs human.... where human can seek protection from small firearms and rounds...
My thinking is both is a waste of time but good to know they exist... -
No one is saying that shellscrapes and fire trenches are completely invulnerable to arty bombardment, what now with airburst ammunition with proximity fuses.
What I'm saying is that some protection is better than none at all. -
ever dug a shell scrape with a spoon ... cos you surreptitiously left your ET plate behind, only wayanging with your ET stick ? ....
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"When shIt starts flying around, you will pray to god to remove the buttons on your shirt so you can be closer to the ground."
quote from Tigerland. -
When u see you buddies cut into pieces with shrapnel, no need to ask what hole to dig. You will dig the deepest hole possible complete with overhead cover with 6 layers of sandbags even if takes all night to do it.
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keng the wrong way..kenna caught...too bad lor...Originally posted by Fatum:ever dug a shell scrape with a spoon ... cos you surreptitiously left your ET plate behind, only wayanging with your ET stick ? .... -
it all depends on WHERE u are digging...Originally posted by Moonstriker:30MINS?!!!!
freak i toook 4 hours!!! Dry... Hard... Clay... and rocks under the clay!! >.< -
Originally posted by IronBandit:
Artillery fire is used to spread destruction over an area. This means that arty shells aren't designed to make direct hits on targets as small as trenches. Thus, the trench & FOPK are designed more as protection from flying shrapnel and to minimise injury from nearby explosions. You cannot compare the protection offered here to a direct pounding by shells. A direct hit would be fatal in anything less than a reinforced concrete bunker.
As for the Fire-Trench... do you think the roof we create or pack can withstand the type of pounding of artillary shell ? -
I was thinking, whether in army we dig shell-scrape instead of fire-trench reflects the nature of our doctrine being an pre-emptive strike, offensive one. I mean in hasty defense, is fast to setup, thus the troops can be dedicated to other task like patrols, setting up of wired obstacles and digging alternate shell-scrape. But considering our neighbours are getting better howitzers form South Africa to modenise their forces, won't it be too risky to hide in the shell scrape, as they offer only very shallo protection? We can't always assume the RSAF will suceed in destroying all batteries of the enemy, considering the enemy practise shoot and scoot?
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yah lor ...Originally posted by Xcert:keng the wrong way..kenna caught...too bad lor...
don't learn from me har ! ..... -
I totally agree... nothing that an average grunt can build with an Entrenching Tool can protect him against a direct hit!Originally posted by Quirinus:Artillery fire is used to spread destruction over an area. This means that arty shells aren't designed to make direct hits on targets as small as trenches. Thus, the trench & FOPK are designed more as protection from flying shrapnel and to minimise injury from nearby explosions. You cannot compare the protection offered here to a direct pounding by shells. A direct hit would be fatal in anything less than a reinforced concrete bunker. -
I was thinking, whether in army we dig shell-scrape instead of fire-trench reflects the nature of our doctrine being an pre-emptive strike, offensive one. I mean in hasty defense, is fast to setup, thus the troops can be dedicated to other task like patrols, setting up of wired obstacles and digging alternate shell-scrape. But considering our neighbours are getting better howitzers form South Africa to modenise their forces, won't it be too risky to hide in the shell scrape, as they offer only very shallo protection? We can't always assume the RSAF will suceed in destroying all batteries of the enemy, considering the enemy practise shoot and scoot?
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thing is bros .... let's not forget, fire-trenches or shell-scrapes are not just for protection against indirect fire alone ....
it's also for protection against incoming direct fire, and gives you a covered position from which to return fire too, eh ? ....
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better some protection than no protection
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I think when the bullets and shells start flying towards you, everyone will be a believer in digging.
Our digging speed will probably increase as well. -
remember what comes after an Arty attack? the main push by the infantryOriginally posted by Fatum:thing is bros .... let's not forget, fire-trenches or shell-scrapes are not just for protection against indirect fire alone ....
it's also for protection against incoming direct fire, and gives you a covered position from which to return fire too, eh ? .... -
I was reading Generation Kill, the US Marines dig a new shellscrape (they call it Ranger graves) in almost every new location.
A shellscrape would give you some protection from the normal kind of arty bombardment, but it's effectiveness against airbust is greatly reduced due to its prone nature. A foxhole would be a lot better, but it takes a lot longer to dig I suppose. If I recall, the G.Is in WW2 dug mostly foxholes.