Malaysian infantry weapons

• dragonstar

  4 Jan 07, 22:11

  Originally posted by davechng:

  wonder why the MAlaysian switch from the AUG to the M4! they must not have liked the AUG that much to change.
  
  I personelly think the AUG is kind of fragile! Heard anything news why they decided to retire the AUG??
  
  DaveC!

  From Defence Solutions (New Zealand):
  
  When they say the sale goes to the lowest bidder in military circles they were certainly not wrong when it came to the Steyr. We have had this Australian version of the original Austrian AUG for the better part of 20 years and only the adequate training of our personnel has countered its less than reasonable performance in the field. The Australians are currently looking for a more satisfactory replacement. So should we. Fogging optics, junk magazines and a barrel that can not sustain a reasonable rate of automatic rifle and fallible safety mechanisms are just some of the issues with this rifle. ................ purchasing the M16A4 or similar would be wise. This is the most recent rifle in the M16 family. One aspect of the F88 Steyr can be summed up by an actual order by the Australian Army, order No. 7196-94 which indicated that the Steyr should not be used on rapid fire for long because plastic parts melted.
  
  
• glock

  4 Jan 07, 23:21

  Long live the M16 !
• davechng

  4 Jan 07, 23:27

  AUG has its set of problems! I have a AUG-A2 and occasionally the firing pin will come off the gun! literally! and another problem I have is somtime the empty cartridge will get stuck and eats into the plastic near the ejection area! kind of the bolt slamming onto a hot emties during ejection and it got caught and force into the plastic stock during ejection.
  
  I guess M4 might be the alternative! but the short 14.5" barrel would be a big disadvantage since comapring to a 20" barrel, the 5.56 needed the extra barrel to give the performance and magic of the 5.56.. with the 14.5 barrel! the M4 is reduce to a 200 meter rifle instead of a 500 meter using M855 with a 20" barrel! the AUG does have the advantage of short and still retains the 20" barrel.did not know that the AUG magazine is that weak! I always felt it is a better design to our M16 mags until the HK M16 mags came out!
  
  Maybe the AUGA3 will have that improvement ! who knows!!
  
  DaveC
• Shotgun

  5 Jan 07, 00:41

  I guess they are not very concerned about having that 500meter range. Perhaps 200 meter is sufficient? Read some article online, that most of the wounds caused by assault rifles in combat, were fired from under 100meters.
  
  With so much FIBUA and Jungle warfare in our part of the world, I doubt we'd be able to see past 50 meters.
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  7 Jan 07, 03:36

  A chamber explosion for the AUG is deadly... it's not a rifle you want to be using when it happens.
  
  

  Originally posted by Shotgun:

  I guess they are not very concerned about having that 500meter range. Perhaps 200 meter is sufficient? Read some article online, that most of the wounds caused by assault rifles in combat, were fired from under 100meters.
  
  With so much FIBUA and Jungle warfare in our part of the world, I doubt we'd be able to see past 50 meters.

  Depends on the ammo you are using as well, a full size barrel can create round fragmentation for standard 5.56mm ball (not the greentip rounds though) on target entry within 100 meters, which makes the round more damaging then the AK 7.62mm round. The M-4 barrel reduces the range over this effect can be generated due to its lower MV. That might be an issue. Shooting through cover at targets behind is already an issue with 5.56mm and the M-4's barrel does not help things.
  
  Depends on your tool for the job and how you are willing to work with certain compromises. My rifle of choice for FIBUA would be the SAR-21 because generally it's a more reliable weapon then the M-16 and offers the hitting power of a full sized 5.56 barrel in a compact package that makes it really good for FIBUA.
  
  The scope, if mastered allows you to aquire and engage targets faster then traditional iron-sights and gives you more situtational awareness as well (if you shoot with both eyes open, which is a feat that's very next to impossible with iron sights).
  
  The tradeoff if of course, a slightly longer reload time. But I think it's worth the trade given what it gives you.
• SpecOps87

  7 Jan 07, 11:27

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  The tradeoff if of course, a slightly longer reload time. But I think it's worth the trade given what it gives you.

  Would definitely hope to have a back-up weapon in a firefight. Many claim that pistols are difficult to manage, so I would prefer to have a PDW to back me up in terms of firepower.
• acwire_2125

  8 Jan 07, 00:02

  Well, if they can redo the Barrel lenght of the M$ to about 20", I think it's great for a replacement of the AUG. Maybe Singapore can do that! With the help of ST! haha
• moca

  8 Jan 07, 00:51

  Originally posted by SpecOps87:

  Would definitely hope to have a back-up weapon in a firefight. Many claim that pistols are difficult to manage, so I would prefer to have a PDW to back me up in terms of firepower.

  During my time with the M16, other than the Sec Cmd, everyone had a secondary role in the section like SAW gunner, M203 Grenadier or Sharpshooters, whom also carried a LAW each.
  
  So, in other words, I don't see how anyone would be able to manage to carry a secondary PDW - along with the extra ammo. It would be very cumbersome.
• insouciant

  8 Jan 07, 01:36

  Originally posted by acwire_2125:

  Well, if they can redo the Barrel lenght of the M$ to about 20", I think it's great for a replacement of the AUG. Maybe Singapore can do that! With the help of ST! haha

  Eh... If you want to M4 with an extended barrel... Why don't you just buy the M16A4 which is the same thing?
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  8 Jan 07, 04:26

  Originally posted by insouciant:

  Eh... If you want to M4 with an extended barrel... Why don't you just buy the M16A4 which is the same thing?

  Not to mention giving the M4 that barrel pretty much removes the compact size that was the very point of the whole weapon in the first place. There's a reason why there's the bullpup design.
• davechng

  9 Jan 07, 00:51

  YEs.. the M4 14.5 " barrel does not do well in Iraq and Afganistan becasue it is fundamentally reducing the magic of the 5.56! a typical 20" barrel will give you 3100 fps on a green tip M855 or SS109! whereelse the M4 14.5" barrel reduces that to almost 2700 fps! 5.56 losses its magic below 2500 fps and thus an M4 would be effective to 200 meter or less.
  
  if they want a 14.5 barrel for compactness maybe the 6.8mm SPC or go with a better bullet like the 77 grain 5.56 .. that will stillmretain the performace of the bullet yet can use a shorter barrel! of course that will mean controllability of the weapon since the bigger bullet usually cognotate to higher recoil and all that.
  
  Dave C
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  9 Jan 07, 04:43

  Huh? But I tot the Yank greentips don't fragment like the usual 5.56 rounds, making it all rather moot. The barrier preformance of the M4 is an issue though, especially when you are trying to get at an insurgent at a sandbagged window at 100 meters.
• SpecOps87

  9 Jan 07, 10:47

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  Huh? But I tot the Yank greentips don't fragment like the usual 5.56 rounds, making it all rather moot. The barrier preformance of the M4 is an issue though, especially when you are trying to get at an insurgent at a sandbagged window at 100 meters.

  If not wrong, Yankee Greentip ammo is fundamentally tipped with a tungsten carbide penetrator, as such, it able to penetrate body armour or cover. But if that guy is bare, as in no BA, the effect is somewhat opposite. Instead of killing the target, the ammo. actually gives the effect of sticking the target with an ice pick or something. If not mistaken, theres no fragmentation of the round after impact.
• davechng

  10 Jan 07, 00:36

  for the SS109 or M855 yes! it either has the harden steel or tungsten penetrator ! The US M855 is a hardened steel! does the same effect! the 62 grain M855 still fragment but has to have enough velocity to do that! the threshold seems to stay at 2700 fps!
  
  Assuming true M193 or M855 ammo, velocity is the key. Velocity is dependent on barrel length and environmental conditions.
  
  As barrel length increases, the bullet is propelled faster by the expanding gasses in the barrel, imparting more velocity on the bullet, resulting in a longer range before a fired bullet drops below 2700 fps. A shorter barrel imparts less velocity, and therefore the bullet has less range.
  
  Temperature, altitude and humidity are other factors. As temperature or altitude increases, air becomes less dense and bullets travel faster. Contrary to common conceptions, as humidity increases air also becomes less dense and helps bullets retain velocity.
  
  It is important, then, to keep in mind that any statistics given can only be approximate and can be affected by a wide range of factors. But as a baseline, these numbers are what you could expect for 75° F, 25% humidity, at sea level, from various barrel lengths:
  
  Distance to 2700 fps 55 grain M193 ss109 or M855
  20" Barrel 190-200 m 140-150m
  16" Barrel 140-150m 90-95m
  14.5" Barrel 95-100m 45-50m
  11.5" Barrel 40-50m 12-15m
  
  As you can see, barrel length and ammo selection make a major impact on fragmentation range.
  
  However, the M855 will penetrate better than say a M80 7.62x51mm ball at 600 meter on a M1 Steel helemet ! it will go thru both ways! thats of course with a 20" barrel rifle!
  
  DaveC
  
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  10 Jan 07, 00:51

  Very informative.
  
  And hence we have here why the M-4, while a great weapon, is not the solve-all infantry firearm for all applications.
• davechng

  10 Jan 07, 04:29

  YEah! Agreeable ! no 1 weapon to do all the jobs! ... I still think the 5.56 ammo can be improve using the newer 77 grain Mk 262 Mod 1 or change the caliber to the 6.8 SPC!
  
  with evereyone wanting a shorter barrel 5.56 gun! we are taking out the efficiencies of the 5.56 which is high velocity! .... having short barrel will only degrade the ammo so badly and when the ammo don;t perform, we blame everything on the gun down to the ammo and did not realize the pure physics and scientific data of the weapons!
  
  DAveC!