RAAF may acquire 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets
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http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20932315-1702,00.html
Defence spending 'a mess'
December 15, 2006
LABOR has labelled Australia's defence acquisition program a mess, as the Government considers spending $2 billion on aircraft as a stop-gap measure while it waits for the new, high-tech joint strike fighter (JSF).
Australia may buy a squadron of 24 F-18F Super Hornet fighter jets as back-up amid growing concerns over delays in the delivery of the JSF.
Fairfax newspapers reported that Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had confirmed that the Government was in discussions with the US government for the purchase of the Super Hornets.
The aircraft are likely to cost about $90 million each.
The move is an apparent about-face for the government, which has repeatedly said there would be no need for a stop-gap to fill the hole between the phase-out of the RAAF's fleet of aging F/A-18 Hornets and F-111s and the introduction of the JSF.
Labor Leader Kevin Rudd said today that while he had not seen the report, the Government's defence acquisition program was "a mess".
"It is full of waste and inefficiency. It's a massive defence budget we have got and it's a budget that has been badly spent on so many projects."
Mr Rudd said Labor would hold the government accountable on waste and mismanagement in defence.
The possible purchase of Super Hornets comes amid fears that countries in the region are buying new Russian aircraft considered far superior to Australia's F/A-18s and F-111s.
Australia's F-111s have been flown for 40 years and are likely to be grounded after 2012, but the first JSF is not due to be delivered to Australia until 2013.
In Washington this week to sign a memorandum of understanding of Australia's commitment to the JSF, Dr Nelson signalled the Government still intended to buy up to 100 JSFs at a total cost of about $16 billion.
But Dr Nelson said he would not leave Australia with a fighter aircraft capability gap.
"We remain 100 per cent committed to the JSF," Dr Nelson told Fairfax.
"But I am not prepared to take the risk of allowing a capability gap to occur."
[n]Plans call for the Super Hornet to be delivered in 2010, though the first planes might arrive in 2008. [/b]
The deputy chief of the air force, Air Vice Marshal John Blackburn, all but ruled out the need for a stop-gap jet in October.
"We are confident that, with the program as it is currently progressing, we shouldn't need an interim solution," he said.
"However, as with most things in defence we are looking at contingency plans ... However I don't think there is any likelihood of that having to be before us and we have full confidence of the program delivering the JSF on time," he said.
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Originally posted by duotiga83
Maybe one of the reasons why we buy the F-15SG is also to act as a stop gap for our aging F-16 fleet and soon to be retired F-5S?
Australia may buy a squadron of 24 F-18F Super Hornet fighter jets as back-up amid growing concerns over delays in the delivery of the JSF.
Lets hope the above mentioned problems will not happen to us.
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The JSF is planned to replace our F16s and F5s in the future and I think our F 15SGs are a new capability for RSAF which is not tied to JSF. The F 15 SGs are long range deep penetration strike aircraft. JSFs are Jack of All Trades warplanes like our F 16s.
As a stop gap measure when JSF is delayed I believe we shud be getting more F 16s simply because they are already in our inventory and they are relatively cheap - we need not get the latest variants. I think this will happen when we need to start replacing our F 5s as I do not see viable replacements for our excellent ( though aging ) F 5s. A good alternative will actually be Gripens, but this will certainly add complexity to logistics, training, maintenance etc not to mention increased costs. -
Yes, i agree. Most probably will get more F-16C/Ds when the JSF is further delayedOriginally posted by glock:The JSF is planned to replace our F16s and F5s in the future and I think our F 15SGs are a new capability for RSAF which is not tied to JSF. The F 15 SGs are long range deep penetration strike aircraft. JSFs are Jack of All Trades warplanes like our F 16s.
As a stop gap measure when JSF is delayed I believe we shud be getting more F 16s simply because they are already in our inventory and they are relatively cheap - we need not get the latest variants. I think this will happen when we need to start replacing our F 5s as I do not see viable replacements for our excellent ( though aging ) F 5s. A good alternative will actually be Gripens, but this will certainly add complexity to logistics, training, maintenance etc not to mention increased costs.
Maybe get 2nd hand from the US or some other Nato country, then upgrade by ourselves. This is assuming we have the capability to upgrade the F-16C/Ds by then which is quite feasible. -
Amazing.Aussie may spend A$3 billion and no need to go for detailed study.
$3bn on Super Hornet fighters, Patrick Walters, National security editor,
* December 20, 2006DEFENCE Minister Brendan Nelson intends to ram through a $3 billion purchase of 24 F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft, amid concerns Australia may lack a fully deployable air combat capability early next decade.
2.What a easy job to be Aussie Defense Minister!!
Dr Nelson has accelerated plans to buy the upgraded Hornets through a US Defence Department purchase from the US navy.
His swift action came as a surprise to senior defence officials on Russell Hill.
The decision to buy an expensive interim fighter will generate a major rethink of the 2006-16 defence capability plan, with the prospect of a cut in the 100-strong Joint Strike Fighter fleet planned for the RAAF.
Senior defence sources said Dr Nelson wanted to run no risk of an air combat capability gap, with the F-111 strike force due to retire in 2010.
A key concern is that the Joint Strike Fighter, destined to become the RAAF's new frontline combat aircraft, may be subject to congressional budget cuts, leading to production delays.
On current plans, the first JSF squadron will enter operational service in Australia in 2014-15.
Acquiring a full squadron of Super Hornets from 2009-10 will enable the RAAF to retire its 22 operational F-111s in 2010 without the need for a further costly extension of their service life. It would also mean the air force could reduce to 42 the number of aircraft taking part in the full $1.5 billion Hornet upgrade program.
A decision on an interim fighter solution was expected early in 2007, but Dr Nelson chose to go public with the Super Hornet plan during his visit to the US last week.
The F/A-18F has been in service with the US navy since 1998 and has recently seen service in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Dr Nelson decided to opt for the Super Hornet without a detailed study of alternative aircraft types such as the US air force's F-15 Eagle or the European Typhoon. The Super Hornet offers some commonalities with the Australian air force's existing Hornet fleet and a relatively easy conversion for air crew, air force sources say.
Andrew Davies of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute said the planned purchase raised serious cost and capability issues. "Its another fourth-generation aircraft. It's not the quantum lift that JSF gives you," Dr Davies said.
"Either something will have to give way in the defence capability plan, or the Government will have to supplement the defence budget."
3.Air combat void to cost millions,By Ian McPhedran,November 30, 2006The F-111s are massively expensive to keep in the air, but must remain in service until a major upgrade of the RAAF's 71 F/A-18 Hornet fighters is completed after 2010.
Why Aussie not decide and take action earlier?
4.Is Aussie considered Reference Customer in defence market? -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
commonalities is the greatest advantage for super hornet
Amazing.Aussie may spend A$3 billion and no need to go for detailed study.
[b]$3bn on Super Hornet fighters, Patrick Walters, National security editor,
* December 20, 2006
2.What a easy job to be Aussie Defense Minister!![/b] -
SOME commonalities. IIRC The parts are 70% different.
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Ok, the Australians are buying the Super Hornets but what about Malaysia then? Any recent updates?
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---what a expert's views.read belowOriginally posted by Shotgun:SOME commonalities. IIRC The parts are 70% different.
Flying into trouble,December 30, 2006by Dr Carlo Kopp. a defence analyst
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/flying-into-trouble/2006/12/29/1166895477918.html
Other related coverage
* Test triumph for new $16bn air defence fleet
* Unmanned planes on RAAF list
Australia is risking its credibility in the region if it pursues its plan to buy 24 Super Hornet aircraft, writes Carlo Kopp.
LAST week's disclosure of negotiations to procure 24 Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornets as interim replacements for Australia's existing F-111 fleet is the latest instalment in the sorry saga of the RAAF's decline as a credible regional air force.
Until last week, senior Defence figures repeatedly denied that Super Hornets were being sought as gap fillers to overcome continuing difficulties with the long running F/A-18A Hornet Upgrade Program, increasing delays with the Joint Strike Fighter, and Defence's campaign for premature retirement of the F-111 fleet.
The Super Hornet is the US Navy's follow-on fighter to the "Classic Hornet", currently flown by four RAAF squadrons. While slightly larger than Australia's Hornets, the Super Hornet's agility, supersonic speed and acceleration performance, critical in air combat, are no better than the earlier model, due to a Congressional mandate during development. With unique engines, radar, airframe and electronic warfare systems, the Super Hornet shares little real commonality with its predecessor, driving up support costs. All it offers is a better radar, improved avionics and 36 per cent more internal fuel, at a price tag estimated at $2.5 billion.
The bad news is that the Super Hornet is not competitive against the latest Russian Sukhoi Su-30MK fighters, operated or being acquired by China, India, Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia, and it is also not competitive against the Boeing F-15 models being acquired by Singapore, South Korea, and flown by Japan.
The larger Sukhois are faster, much more agile, and have greater range and firepower than the Super Hornet. The Russians are now testing an advanced supersonic cruise engine in the Sukhoi fighter, which will effectively double the combat speed of the Russian fighters, putting them well out of reach of the lacklustre Super Hornet.
The Super Hornet is not a credible air combat fighter in this region, and no upgrade can ever make it so.
The stated intention to use the Super Hornet as an interim replacement for Australia's F-111s is no less incredible.
Capable of carrying about half the F-111's payload of smart bombs to about two-thirds the distance achievable by the F-111, in raw firepower terms the Super Hornet delivers around one-third the punch of the F-111.
To match the range and persistence of the F-111, the Super Hornet must be supported by aerial refuelling tanker aircraft in numbers that Defence has no intention of ever acquiring. In real terms, replacing F-111s with Super Hornets reduces strike capability three-fold.
Claims by Defence that the F-111s will become dangerous to fly after 2010 are absurd, given the advanced testing used to verify structural integrity of the fleet. Defence has repeatedly inflated the cost of operating and upgrading the F-111 in evidence to Parliament, and made factually incorrect claims on a wide range of technical issues, while publicly admitting "we don't know what we don't know". In short, the Defence leadership has no credibility whatsoever in justifying the early retirement of the F-111s. Even a fraction of the budget required to buy the Super Hornet would equip the F-111s with new engines, new wings and new avionics, allowing them to remain in use decades longer.
Compared to the mediocre Joint Strike Fighter that Defence intends as the ultimate replacement for both the F/A-18A and F-111 fleets, the Super Hornet has inferior stealth and avionics. Neither of these aircraft were designed to be credible in air combat against the latest Russian Sukhois.
Nor were they designed to defeat the advanced Russian S-300 and S-400 surface-to-air missile systems, largely superior to the US Patriot, and now appearing in this region.
In strategic terms, Defence is re-equipping the RAAF with a fleet of aircraft that will be little more than a bad joke in the region — and doing so despite better alternatives, such as the superlative F-22A, and despite repeated advice to the contrary.
Defence runs a real risk that as further difficulties emerge with the Joint Strike Fighter, and its cost continues to creep up, a future government will bale out, and with Super Hornets already in service, opt to buy more to replace the legacy Hornets. This further reduces capability against the non-credible Joint Strike Fighter plan. A far better strategy for the future of the RAAF is to scrap current planning, and start again.
The F-22A Raptor suffers none of the limitations of either the Joint Strike Fighter or Super Hornet, and is in production and operational in the US.
If Australia is to have any strategic credibility in the region, it cannot pursue the path sought by the Defence leadership.
Dr Carlo Kopp is a defence analyst and research fellow in regional military strategy at the Monash Asia Institute. He has flown the Super Hornet.
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I won't give total support to purchase F-22A eventhough my heart wants to. RAAF with F-22A would be great, but I doubt the Americans would give them the full fledge version, most likely a watered down version.
As a stop gap meaure, if replacing F111 is the real key, then getting F-15SG like planes is the most sensible. If RAAF wants a real fighter to deal with Sukhois, then they should look into Eurofighter and let the existing F-18 do the mud moving. -
Do you guys read , check and think about what you post ?
"what a expert's views.read below"
Perhaps you would like to give me some sort of an insight into Carlo's area of expertise ? -
Almost sure Aussie will spend so much $$ without details study.
Thats why SG is classified as Reference Customer.
pl read my post 20.12.2006 in this thread.Dr Nelson decided to opt for the Super Hornet without a detailed study of alternative aircraft types such as the US air force's F-15 Eagle or the European Typhoon. The Super Hornet offers some commonalities with the Australian air force's existing Hornet fleet and a relatively easy conversion for air crew, air force sources say.
2.$4bn Hornet buy tipped to get nod, Patrick Walters, National security editor, February 08, 2007A $4 BILLION deal to purchase 24 F/A-18F Super Hornet fighters from the US is expected to be approved by the Howard Government's national security committee within weeks.
---http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21190098-31477,00.html
Defence Minister Brendan Nelson is driving the acquisition amid concerns that Australia may lack a fully deployable air combat capability early next decade following the retirement of the F-111 strike force.
Defence officials are now close to finalising details of the Super Hornet deal with the Pentagon, with the new warplanes expected to enter service from 2009-10.
The Pentagon told the US Congress on Tuesday it was proposing to sell Australia 24 of the upgraded Hornets in a deal worth $US3.1 billion ($4 billion). The package includes the aircraft, 48 engines, radars, guided missile launchers and other military equipment.
A spokesman for Dr Nelson said the Government was still to decide whether to buy or lease the planes. "A decision (on the purchase) will be made soon," he said.
Dr Nelson's push for the interim fighters is driven by concerns about possible production delays in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter destined to become Australia's front-line combat aircraft from 2014.
But the $4 billion purchase will lead to a major revision of the Defence Department's 10-year capital equipment plan, which is already facing big cost blowouts from other planned equipment buys, including the navy's air warfare destroyers.
One option for the Government will be to cut the 100-strong $14 billion joint strike fighter purchase.
The Super Hornet acquisition will enable the retirement of the F-111s in 2010 without the need for a further costly extension of their service life.
It could produce savings in the RAAF's current $1.5billion upgrade of its existing F/A-18 fleet with fewer of the aircraft needing to be overhauled.
The F/A-18F Super Hornet has better range and more sophisticated avionics than the current F-18 A/B models and has been used in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It costs about $75 million for each warplane. They have a combat radius of 681 nautical miles and are equipped with the latest APG-79 radar.
2.Aussie is really rich.Spend S$5 billions without details comparsions.
They even dunt bother to do a show only RFP etc.
Pity Aussie tax payers!! -
Yeah, u have to agree that conversion from hornets to superhornets are definitely gonna be a hell lot easier. Both are very energy efficient jets. Great handling at low speeds.
Was hoping Aus would go for a REAL fighter jet thought. Maybe the F-15s or even some of the Euro canards. -
I am also surprised....
I would think the F15E would be a straight replacement of the F111. And the F15 will probably be a lot more cheaper then the Super Bug -
Unbelievable. they will spend 2 billion as a "stop-gap" measure...
Can't they lease a/c like Itay (leasing F16s while waiting for typhoons)?
i wonder whether US will lease them some of their surplus F15s. -
Their meaning of "stop gap" probably ALSO means that in case the JSF becomes unacceptable, they still have the super hornets. If the JSF becomes unacceptable even to the aussies, ie too watered down, then i think RSAF also can forget about it already.
Personally, payload wise, i think the JSF just doesn't cut it. Sure, its stealth, glass cockpit, state of the art processor, radar, sensors.... but its payload capability is still so small without compromising stealth. =/
Of course, if they reduce the stealth capability... then i think might as well buy more strike eagles liao. -
that is quite an expensive interim replacement.....
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They can consider buying the latest China warplane fighter "J-10" that is an improvement over F-16. The Eurofighter Typhoon can also be considered.
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A novel proposition, but completely unacceptable politically.Originally posted by norm:They can consider buying the latest China warplane fighter "J-10" that is an improvement over F-16. The Eurofighter Typhoon can also be considered. -
If I am not wrong, the Aussie doesn't like the JSF's small payload, esp compared with their current F111s.Originally posted by Shotgun:Their meaning of "stop gap" probably ALSO means that in case the JSF becomes unacceptable, they still have the super hornets. If the JSF becomes unacceptable even to the aussies, ie too watered down, then i think RSAF also can forget about it already.
Personally, payload wise, i think the JSF just doesn't cut it. Sure, its stealth, glass cockpit, state of the art processor, radar, sensors.... but its payload capability is still so small without compromising stealth. =/
Of course, if they reduce the stealth capability... then i think might as well buy more strike eagles liao.
Is the Super-bug's range and payload higher then JSF's??
Maybe the RAAF is considering continuing with two different combat a/c a F-35 and F/A-18 fleet, instead of a all-JSF force.
By the time the JSFs become unacceptable to us (2012??), I don't think the F-15 will still be in production.....
I wonder what the USAF will do if the JSF is "canned"? They have a large F-16 fleet to replace! -
Dump them to India, or whatever countries that want cheap multirole aircraft.
I don't think even the Aussies are nuts (or rich) enough to try to build an all JSF fleet. With a pair AMRAAM D to be its principle A2A and Anti Radiation missile, its a severely under armed aircraft. U loose an AMRAAM at an SA-6, and u've got only 1 AMRAAM left. The JSF may have a nice first pounce as an A2A fighter, its lack of teeth is gonna be a little restrictive.
Then there is the small diameter bomb. Can't pack as much ordinance unless they are small diameter bombs. I hardly think a country would want to build an air force totally out of JSFs. -
F-22Ds(hypothetical) anyone? By the 2025 timeframe, they should be for sale to SG..
It's not impossible. -
Actually an all-JSF force is purpose to be the plan... but the concern was the JSF will not be able to replace the F-111's long range interdiction role...Originally posted by Shotgun:Dump them to India, or whatever countries that want cheap multirole aircraft.
I don't think even the Aussies are nuts (or rich) enough to try to build an all JSF fleet. With a pair AMRAAM D to be its principle A2A and Anti Radiation missile, its a severely under armed aircraft. U loose an AMRAAM at an SA-6, and u've got only 1 AMRAAM left. The JSF may have a nice first pounce as an A2A fighter, its lack of teeth is gonna be a little restrictive.
Then there is the small diameter bomb. Can't pack as much ordinance unless they are small diameter bombs. I hardly think a country would want to build an air force totally out of JSFs. -
Aussie procurement is kinda messed up. Whereas they have MBTs, they don't have tracked IFVs but wheeled IFVs instead, and they don't have SP artillery.
Then the Collins submarine was a real embarrassment. Lots of problems initially because of lack of program oversight.