Japanese Defense Ministry back up!
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Thanks Fatum, you have enlightened me, looks like we cannot underestimate the 'soft power' and simply look at this issue purely from a military standpoint.
And yes my "pu tong hua' is up to scratch
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then liddat SEA becomes China's Eastern Europe?Originally posted by Fatum:you're right, the phillipines' military is a comedy act, brunei has no fighter jets, Malaysia's military is good only for rattling sabers at us ... the only countries able and willing to show any fight at all are the vietnamese and the taiwanese ....
but the chinese are probably the brightest and most pragmatic people on earth ...
time is centuries to them ... they'll be patient, upsetting the international status quo is of no interest to them, nor are they interested in fighting uncle sam right now when uncle sam is weakening himself day by day in the war on terror, they doesn't want to be the next super power now, not yet, for uncle sam's problems would become THEIR problem after, and uncle sam's super consumer society is the catalyst is basically china's economic growth engine ...but one day, they may just "win" over the spratleys (and taiwan of course) without having to fire a shot ....
take for example, south korea, although the most recent memories for south koreans would be fighting against the Chinese's "people's volunteer army' during the korean war (funny how things go eh, that the memory that lingers for them were older japanese ones) ... the chinese are actively courting the south koreans so as to try and move her away from uncle sam's sphere of influence ... do you know south korean businessmen enjoy the same tax and property ownership privileges as "overseas compatriots"; HK and taiwanese businessmen ? ... China doesn't give a flying fark about north korea, it's an embaressment to them, but if south korea is aligned with China instead of the states, then china can safely let north korean collaspe, and let the south shoulder the burden, neh ? ...
when China finally rears her head for real ... we'll all know she's already won .....
so .... is your "pu tong hua" good ? ... -
it won't be ... who'd want to rule over another country ? ...Originally posted by fallin:then liddat SEA becomes China's Eastern Europe?
she'll probably just take what she wants that's all .... natural resources ....
she doesn't need the people, she doesn't need the land ... but she certainly need the strategic resources and to keep her SLOCs secure .... and SLOCs for east asia means us, south east asia .... why do you think even south korea's looking at aircraft carriers now ? ....
fact is, China doesn't really need aircraft carriers ... not right now ... taiwan is a short distance from the mainland, and for dominating the spratleys Hainan is more than sufficient, she doesn't need to project power .... yet ... and so, she builds up her submarine forces, expand the naval fighter fleet with flankers, continues to cuddle up burma in the hope of a naval base and perhaps one day an oil pipeline through to southern china ... gets hongkie businessmen to buy ex-soviet aircraft carriers to turn into floating casinos ... and builds no aircraft carriers ...
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Hmm, suddenly the thread moves to focus on China instead.
East Asia, has a large number of disputed islands (some are just 'worthless' rocks) and disputed seas (with some, full of oil fields) ...
Japan ups its Defence Ministry, China is modernising, I wonder when these two nations (and also, the other few countries in East Asia) come into an armed conflict over these disputed areas. And at that time, we will be able to see, where their armies really stand...
But of course, that is a horrible thought, no one should hope it becomes a reality... -
ah ... I knew someone would post something on this up ...Originally posted by pinkish purple papayas: -
In event of both Japan and China becoming military powers more willing to "flex their muscles" abroad,it'll be good if both of them are too busy with each other then to bother with little countries like us. If not, I really hope ASEAN's military prowess can be up to par. The region, not just Singapore. Make sure they get the shock of their lives if they dare drive down the peninsular or something. In light of two enormous giants, pretty dumb to have this kind of little rivalry with the guys up north eh?
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bush can fufil his father dreams of invading iraq and bring down saddam then akihito will fufil hirohito dream of becoming the ruler of the world,all of us are servants and he is the son of god..
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The mongol hoardes did conquered and ruled China for 150 years, if they had not gone on to conquer more land, all the way to central europe, they would have ruled China for a longer period of time. The manchurian hoardes conquered and ruled China for 400 years, had they not been corrupted and allowed the 8 nations to occupy China, Sun Yet Sen would not have succeeded in his revolution to establish the Republic of China. Nobody ever occupy the vast land???Originally posted by Fatum:look gents, the issue here is not about whether the PLA's able to defend China, or whether the Japanese, or any other country on this earth, can defeat China .....
you can't, and don't "defeat" a billion people .... and you don't take over a country the size, today, or more than half a century ago ....
remember the yuan dynasty ? .... the ching dynasty ? .... be it mongol or manchu hoardes, sooner or later, the vastness of the country, and the sheer number of people would simply swallow any invaders up ! You see any manchuria today ? ... tibet ? ... where's inner mongolia ? ... if the japanese succeeded 60 years ago, today, there won't be any japanese left .... they'll all be chinese ! ... .... 
If the japanese did not attack Pearl Habour and pulled the yankees into the war, if they had not stretched themselves by attacking IndoChina, the Philippines and even Indonesia, was it not possible that they could have conquered China??? they had actually occupied more than half of China!
China is big but history has shown that small tiny but strong foreign nations had tried to cut it up into pieces and shared in its resources. No?
The vast land stretching from China to central europe did not stop the mongol from occupying the land, the vast land in north american did not stopped the white men from occupying it and call it their own, the vast land stretching from England to Australia did not stop the British Empire from colonizing countries and make the people fly their flag and salute their queen. The difference is how powerful are the relative military powers. Sovereignty means nothing if the country has no credible defence forces to defend themselves. There is no difference today!
the hundred million or so japanese toke on Russia in the beginning of the century, destroyed the largest naval armada at that time; they successfully launched a surprised attack and destroyed a whole fleet of the american navy thousands of miles away from home; they invaded and occupied land hundred times their size, .... some chaps never studies history, or perhaps they studies but never learned.Originally posted by Fatum:and some chaps are worried about a puny hundred million or so japanese ? ....
... perhaps our national education classes are succeeding very well, but in the wrong way ...
Who was the greatest player behind the communists in the Korean war as well as the Vietnamese war, China or the USSR? history tells us that the UN forces actually defeated the chinese up to the yalu river, crossing it would be war with China. Again, return what you learned to the history teacher or just never learn?Originally posted by Fatum:oh, btw ... Iraq wasn't the first country to defy the UN .... China was ... and she took on the whole UN army in korea, if anyone forgot about it ... now this is not to rattle people off or finger the Chinese as potential imperialists, but to point out that, really, we have bigger things to worry about that to pander to to the 60 years old nightmare of invading japanese hoardes ....
China is a communist state, we would need to worry if it moves on to adopt the North Korean style of communism, but fortunately we see the china opening up instead of closing up. We need to be concerned about the rise of chinese nationalism, but engaging them would be a better solution than declaring them potential enemy, no? Chinese a potential imperialists? hmm....something very new, can't comment. And of course, China is big, but we don't wet our pants everytime we see an elephant, do you?
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so ... what's your point ? I don't see any that I haven't made, other than a demonstration of history as you perceive it.
yes, the mongol hoarde did occupy China, so did the Manchurians, but does occupation = defeat ? ... the physical and cultural vastness of China, with it multitudes, will swallow up any invaders, notice how the Qing dynasty got to be seen as an intrinsic part of China by history (and indeed, Qing maps are still used as the basis of defining her international boundaries today, no ? ), did you read what I've written at all ? Yes, military power is a deterent, but you simplify the point, perhaps to paraphrase from Chiang Kai-Shek ... "The Japanese are a disease of the skin, the communists are a disease of the heart (of China) ... the man recognized that the japanese are a mere footnote in the history of China, in the greater scheme of things, which was why he was quite happy to conserve the majority of his forces for the coming fight with the communists, after the japanese are gone, no ? ... (a bad political mistake perhaps, but he was always more of a military man than a politician) but even so, speaking of the communists, look at China today, barely a century after Mao mounted the dragon throne ...
and of course, colonizing a few natives in loin cloths and spears is a very different proposition from trying to colonize a vast country with it's multitudes and an ancient civilization eh ? Even for India, indonesia, Malaysia, the phillipines, malaya, you realize that these modern countries were essentially post-colonial constructs cobbled together by western imperialists from small, easily subjugated princely states ? ... these countries never had a national consiousness, a national identity, until recently, quite quite unlike China.
I shall always remember a line from the movie "Empire of the Sun", by the "invited chink", Mr Chen to lockwood, "you've been in shanghai for a hundred years, not a bad inning, but only an incident, as for the japanese, four years ? .... we have 500 million fighting backup ... and we'll be here after this war an the next !" ...
I guess we must keep several things in perspective, yes, the lessons of history must never be forgotten, but then, history and time spans centuries, indeed, millenium to the chinese ... and we should all understand that history is a very powerful and convinent political tool ....
so, now that we're convinced that China cannot be "defeated", the question really is, what are her intentions, no ? ... who knows, perhaps in 50 years, if Singapore is still around, we'll be hosting Chinese aircraft carriers instead of American ones at Changi naval base, eh ? ... as for whether the rise of the dragon is a good thing for the rest of the world, especially in asia, we'll have to see how she welds her power ....
I'm crossing my fingers.
(you know, as much as I can see that our national education campaign is doing very well on providing some chaps with a certain view of history, I sometimes wonder how much of it is just skin deep and subconsious rejurgitation, judging by entries and comments to japanese chicks and pornstars threads over at Original Babe Forum, eh ? ... ) -
My point is, simply that a Japan with strong military is more a threat to the region than a strong China. History has shown that China can be defeated and conquered, it was conquered before and half of China was conquered by Japan in WW2. There may be different interpretations to historical facts, but Japan invaded and conquered most parts of Asia, and China was close to being defeated in WW2, are historical facts that cannot be changed. Facts do not change according to our perception.
Can China be defeated? Certainly yes, from a military point of view. If Japan alone could conquer half a China, there is no reason why Japan and America together cannot take on China as a nation, defeat its armed forces and break it up into smaller nations. I will agree that Chinese, as a race, will not parish, due to its long history. For thousands of years, they shared the same history, the same language, the same culture, and the same identity. Just like the Jews, Israel is in their heart. Of course, I will agree that the way China is growing, it would be damn difficult to conquer them.
The next question is, what would be the intention of a strong China? You said it correctly, they need no extra land, no need extra labour, but resources. If they don't want your land, don't want to control your people (surely they are not asking anybody to practice their communism, or democracy ), how can they be a threat to any nation? I can't see them using military power to force any country to supply oil, timber, do you? Of course, they will do all kind of arm twisting to get you to supply them, isn't that part of business? are the other bigger nations not doing the same thing already? So what's wrong with Chinese aircraft carriers if they pay for the berthing, and their sailors come R&R visiting our IR? We should have places for both the US carriers and the Chinese carriers, may be even the Russian, the British and the French together.
Singapore education does not provide singaporean with any view on history, except the rise of PAP and Singapore. We need to read more to know exactly what happened in the past, and get a balance view on the perception on why things happened the way it did. -
It's only prudent to be wary of all nations who are in the midst of expansion.Originally posted by sgdiehard:My point is, simply that a Japan with strong military is more a threat to the region than a strong China. History has shown that China can be defeated and conquered, it was conquered before and half of China was conquered by Japan in WW2. There may be different interpretations to historical facts, but Japan invaded and conquered most parts of Asia, and China was close to being defeated in WW2, are historical facts that cannot be changed. Facts do not change according to our perception.
Can China be defeated? Certainly yes, from a military point of view. If Japan alone could conquer half a China, there is no reason why Japan and America together cannot take on China as a nation, defeat its armed forces and break it up into smaller nations. I will agree that Chinese, as a race, will not parish, due to its long history. For thousands of years, they shared the same history, the same language, the same culture, and the same identity. Just like the Jews, Israel is in their heart. Of course, I will agree that the way China is growing, it would be damn difficult to conquer them.
The next question is, what would be the intention of a strong China? You said it correctly, they need no extra land, no need extra labour, but resources. If they don't want your land, don't want to control your people (surely they are not asking anybody to practice their communism, or democracy ), how can they be a threat to any nation? I can't see them using military power to force any country to supply oil, timber, do you? Of course, they will do all kind of arm twisting to get you to supply them, isn't that part of business? are the other bigger nations not doing the same thing already? So what's wrong with Chinese aircraft carriers if they pay for the berthing, and their sailors come R&R visiting our IR? We should have places for both the US carriers and the Chinese carriers, may be even the Russian, the British and the French together.
Singapore education does not provide singaporean with any view on history, except the rise of PAP and Singapore. We need to read more to know exactly what happened in the past, and get a balance view on the perception on why things happened the way it did.
Our self-interest comes first, which means we are on the lookout for anyone who might hit the ocean too hard and catch us off-guard. Japan is an NATO ally. At least we know their behavior far more than the Chinese.
Do bear in mind that we are not aligned with the Chinese, nor the Japanese. We choose the degree of interaction, and I do not see Japanese official maps that label the entire South China Sea as her EEZ. Chinese officials may act and say one thing, but government policy is never as public or transparent as what we would like.
An expansionist PLA is not impossible, though signs are not showing that at the moment. Similarly, I believe that a confident Japan will manage herself much better than one who is repressed. -
Take note that it is Japan that is expanding now! I believe many do not know the behaviour of the Chinese, but I doubt they know the japanese any better. many may like to think they doOriginally posted by LazerLordz:It's only prudent to be wary of all nations who are in the midst of expansion.
Our self-interest comes first, which means we are on the lookout for anyone who might hit the ocean too hard and catch us off-guard. Japan is an NATO ally. At least we know their behavior far more than the Chinese.
Do bear in mind that we are not aligned with the Chinese, nor the Japanese. We choose the degree of interaction, and I do not see Japanese official maps that label the entire South China Sea as her EEZ. Chinese officials may act and say one thing, but government policy is never as public or transparent as what we would like.
An expansionist PLA is not impossible, though signs are not showing that at the moment. Similarly, I believe that a confident Japan will manage herself much better than one who is repressed. , but it was the Japanese who caught the american completely off-guard when they attacked pearl habour.
Chinese were repressed for thousands of years under different emperors, we did not see China invading other countries because they were repressed. Can't see how this has to do with any intention to invade any country
; but Japan's vulnerability to earthquake, volcano and tsunami will remain a reality every japanese government will have to face. History has shown us what the japanese did to secure land and resources they badly needed. what could be different today? -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:
200 nukes across the sea of Japan.
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Take note that it is Japan that is expanding now! I believe many do not know the behaviour of the Chinese, but I doubt they know the japanese any better. many may like to think they do , but it was the Japanese who caught the american completely off-guard when they attacked pearl habour.
Chinese were repressed for thousands of years under different emperors, we did not see China invading other countries because they were repressed. Can't see how this has to do with any intention to invade any country ; but Japan's vulnerability to earthquake, volcano and tsunami will remain a reality every japanese government will have to face. History has shown us what the japanese did to secure land and resources they badly needed. what could be different today? -
That's the reason why Japan stays where they are now.Originally posted by fallin:200 nukes across the sea of Japan. -
I think its just a matter of time before Japan announce that they will develop nuclear weapons or officially acknowledge that they already possess such weapons. This will hardly be surprising as they have the technology( they have been operating nuclear power stations for some time already), the money and now the political will(Abe government) to do so. North Korea's nuclear test just gave the necessary excuse to make this move official.
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they have the technology, the money and everything needed to have their own nuclear weapons. It will be up to the americans (as the good guy) to hold them back, and the chinese (as the bad guy) to force them back from taking a more aggressive role in the regional power balance. If the american decided to place the japanese card by allowing the japs to have nuke to counter north korea, God helps us.Originally posted by tankee1981:I think its just a matter of time before Japan announce that they will develop nuclear weapons or officially acknowledge that they already possess such weapons. This will hardly be surprising as they have the technology( they have been operating nuclear power stations for some time already), the money and now the political will(Abe government) to do so. North Korea's nuclear test just gave the necessary excuse to make this move official.
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Then everybody goes back to MAD lor. Whats the prob. With MAD, not THAT likely to have a situation. I'm pretty sure Chinese and Japanese leaders are smart and logical people.Originally posted by sgdiehard:they have the technology, the money and everything needed to have their own nuclear weapons. It will be up to the americans (as the good guy) to hold them back, and the chinese (as the bad guy) to force them back from taking a more aggressive role in the regional power balance. If the american decided to place the japanese card by allowing the japs to have nuke to counter north korea, God helps us. -
I would rather have a nuclear Japan, nuclear China maintaining the balance of power in North Asia. North Korea is an aberration. Her regime cannot stay like this for long, and I believe that the tipping point is coming..Originally posted by sgdiehard:they have the technology, the money and everything needed to have their own nuclear weapons. It will be up to the americans (as the good guy) to hold them back, and the chinese (as the bad guy) to force them back from taking a more aggressive role in the regional power balance. If the american decided to place the japanese card by allowing the japs to have nuke to counter north korea, God helps us.
You may say that many presume to know Japan, but North Korea is another kettle of fish altogether. -
North Korea was a pawn the Chinese and the Russians used against the american, and Japan was a pawn of the US against the commie. North Korean is a known evil, and appears to be out of control. Japan is a tamed dog, so far so good.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I would rather have a nuclear Japan, nuclear China maintaining the balance of power in North Asia. North Korea is an aberration. Her regime cannot stay like this for long, and I believe that the tipping point is coming..
You may say that many presume to know Japan, but North Korea is another kettle of fish altogether. -
North Korea a known evil? Japan a tamed dog? Who labelled these countries that way?Originally posted by sgdiehard:North Korea was a pawn the Chinese and the Russians used against the american, and Japan was a pawn of the US against the commie. North Korean is a known evil, and appears to be out of control. Japan is a tamed dog, so far so good.
Im not siding anyone but, is what North Korea really doing considered evil or is just the West labelling them evil?
Sure they detonated a supposed nuke which is wrong. but what have america been doing? pillaging homes when they shd have just kept their fists in the name of liberation. Who is the evil one?
Im sure all of us can read between the lines.
And Im not sure about the Japs, some of us can support them, go ahead but I wont. I will be wary of everyone except myself and my country.
China on the other hand is extrememly strong economically right now and i think their economy can take more hits than Japs. and yes being the police now is bad timing as it will make US problems theirs. i believe they will take over US' position sooner or later but thats not a bad thing as long as they dont do what the americans are doing. -
storm_freaky13, I think you need to do some reading up before posting here.
North Korea's dictator is one wacky comrade. Yes, I believe a leader who allows his people to starve and suffer, while he leads a lavish lifestyle evil. Moreover, there has been first hand accounts of the concentration camps he runs against dissidents, where people are sent for "re-education." Many of them, are used as test subjects for chemical and biological agents.
I do not consider the entire country to be evil. But I do consider their leadership to be evil.
