Top 10 Combat Rifles
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They intend to use the ITL MARS for most of their small arms applications. A pretty impressive sighting system if you ask me.
Only drawback apparently is the cost of the system, but it's something you will want to mount on your gun if you have the cash to splurge.
Edit: And it seems that we are using it for some of the SAR variants as well! Especially some of the MMS carbine pics I've seen, which mount a scope that looks just like it... except the picture is kinda dodgy for me to tell. -
the foregrip does help in FA firing .. I ahve tried it with and without and the foregrip does help on my M4, AK74 and AKMS! it is especially helpful on the 7.62x39mm becasue of the greater recoil , flip and impulse of the gun in FA! the 5.56 , 5.45 and 9mm seems to have less of an impact!
DAveC! -
Neat stuff, what's the reflex sight on top of the bottom AR?
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That was what I was told at the exhibition... I just noticed it was lighter and questioned why. The man at the booth kindly enlightened me. =DOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Not to nitpick, but why do you say the MMS has no kevlar protective plate and pressure vent hole? I didn't actively go and look for it when I had my try with the MMS, but from what I see it uses the same butt assembly as the normal SAR variant, which should include the kevlar plate.
Also, STK seems to markets this safety feature across all the variants, given we don't see any fine print about the MMS lacking the kevlar plate. Unless you have actually seen it absent, all reasons indicate that it should be there.
On another note the MMS is my ideal variant of the SAR21, though I would go for a full 20' barrel on it. That makes me undecided between the full sized '20 SAR P-Rail and the MMS, given the SAR P-Rail does pack its LAD into a more egronomic package with a nice handgrip to boot. But the MMS does give you a ton more options. -
Judging by the amount of brass on the ground behind the AK, I have to say your range is in serious need of a "clean-up day."Originally posted by davechng:
DAveC!
Do the shooters at your range police their own brass? -
the reflex sight is a EOtech 552 holographic sight ! made by L3 ..
YEah! lots of brass! hee hee!
DAveC -
Sigh... Singapore is boring when it comes to guns...
Can't imagine that amount of brass at SAF range though... pick RAI unti die man. Then imagine you have to count, ammo ic ying liao lor.That was what I was told at the exhibition... I just noticed it was lighter and questioned why. The man at the booth kindly enlightened me. =D
Ah I see, I'll make a point to look for the plate the next time I get my hands on one... which is like probably 2008 if I do drop down at the Changi Airshow.
Mount an ITL MARS on top of it, it'll do just fine... -
HI Meia
We don;t really pick up those brass becasue the range we are in is in the flood plains of the trinity river by Dallas! so! once or twice a year when the water level is hi! it actually flood over the levy and clean up the brass! LEt Nature takes its place !
as U can see the rnage is setup by the river! and we have gong target setup at 300 ato 400 yds! as yuou can see the ground has lots of brass! or steel case AK and 7.62x54R cases!!
SIngapore Tyra... what kind of ammo is the SAR21 currently use in SAF
? are we still using the old 55 grain M193 or the newer 62 grain SS109 or M855.. can you change out the barrel easily like the U100?? or the barrel has to be change in depot??
DaveC! -
Dave,
Oh, that's right. I recall your mentioning in a previous post the situation with the river. It must be nice to not have to police your own brass at the range.
(By the way, looking at the image again, I notice that most of the cases on the ground are steel and not brass. You guys must shoot a crapload of Wolf and Brown Bear ammo.)
Our club range has a very strictly enforced policy on brass policing and disposal, with members having to pick up all their cases. The Range Safety Officer will get in your face if you forget (inadvertently or otherwise) to do so, but the upside is that we have a very clean range, as can be seen in this image of the firing line at the 200-yard range:
(That's one of my 24" target ARs in the foreground.) -
wow !nice range.. Meia .. where is this range located?? and what facilities does it has???
the 24" AR must be a tack driver.. I always wanted to built me one this way! and put me a JP or jewell trigger on it! is yours 1:8 or 1:9 twist?? I was thinking to get me those DPMS or Bushmaster lower and built it up! AR is like a kit gun liie the 1911 and CZ!
Heh! have you seen these ammo prices !it is jacking crazy! in Dallas and most Distributor we are out of surplus 308..... 223 is also drying up or extermely expensive !i guess its time to do my reloading again!
DaveC! -
SIngapore Tyra... what kind of ammo is the SAR21 currently use in SAF
They never made an effort to tell us what ammo we were using, except that it was ball or tracer. I did look at the bottom of the casing a few times, but can't recall the what it says by now.
? are we still using the old 55 grain M193 or the newer 62 grain SS109 or M855.. can you change out the barrel easily like the U100?? or the barrel has to be change in depot??
Sucky answer I know, but I'll take a note of it next time I go for ICT... if I can remember that is.
And no, can't change out the barrel easily like the Ultimax Mk.3. You have to take the forward reciever group apart in order to do a barrel change, which is possible with the C-tool but it's probably something we would let the armourer handle. The weapon was intended to be used on one barrel for operations... unless you are talking about the LMG variant, which I suspect would be wise to have a barrel change option... but closed bolt LMGs still aren't as optimal for the SAW role as open bolt systems... probably why it's one variant STK hasn't really put up for sale. -
HI Singapore Tyra..
Next time you go ICT, take the 5.56 ammo and the 55 grain ammo has a little curve on the bullet! and the 62 grain SS109 or M855 is kind of pointier and straighter. look at the picture! you can see the curve on the 1st round from the left which is M193 55 grain FMJ! the green tip is the SS109 or M855
here is the descriptoion of the ammo
Left to right: M193, M196, M855, M856, 75gr Hornady BTHP, 77gr Nosler BTHP
too bad the SAR21 does not have a quick change barrel like the Steyr AUG! kind of a convinient way to switch out barrels!
DaveC -
Aye if my memory serves me from the undamaged projectiles I've observed at the butt of the firing areas, as well as unfired ammo it seems to fit the SS109/M855 description more.
They are pretty pointy as I remember them... and yeah, greentip (for some batches that is) as well. It could be possible that we are mixing our ammo types... prehaps trying to run through old batches?
And yeah the quite barrel change would be a nice feature (though I can't think of a heat-of-combat application... I mean it's not as if you're firing that weapon like an LMG rite?) , though you might get differences that require you to rezero... is this an issue?
Come to think of it when you have to change barrel on the SAW or MG, does the aiming go off slightly or it's not really an issue given the sheer volume of fire you're putting out and you can just adjust accordingly. Never used a SAW enough to do or require a barrel change (in fact where got even carry spare barrels?), and never got to operate the GPMG in which barrel change is obviously part of the operations.
These things can get mighty hot, my officer friend had to do 1206 because while doing a change for the GPMG, he rested the barrel on top of some polymer SAR mags and they melted right before his eyes! Yeah, kinda like that story of an OCS cadet who cooked his SAR when he let it slip into his campfire while he was sleeping, the butt melted. Ugh, that can't be too good for him. -
Oh! so you guys do use greentip ammo! so! that usually signifies SS109 being use ! in the US, the green tip is use just for identifying SS109 over M193. SO I presume the SAR21 has a 1:9 or 1:7 barrel twist like the M16A2 or M4. good to know.
The quick change barrel is mainly use for versatility of the weapon... I can change from a 16" carbine to a 20 " rifle easily without significantly changing the rifle. not in the role of combat uses! iut also helps in cleaning the weapon although weapon like the AUG is so clean it really do not need to clean except the piston . FOr LMG and SAW an assualt weapon would not be suitable also on the feeing system.
DaveC! -
Oh! so you guys do use greentip ammo! so! that usually signifies SS109 being use ! in the US, the green tip is use just for identifying SS109 over M193. SO I presume the SAR21 has a 1:9 or 1:7 barrel twist like the M16A2 or M4. good to know.
The quick change barrel is mainly use for versatility of the weapon... I can change from a 16" carbine to a 20 " rifle easily without significantly changing the rifle. not in the role of combat uses! iut also helps in cleaning the weapon although weapon like the AUG is so clean it really do not need to clean except the piston . FOr LMG and SAW an assualt weapon would not be suitable also on the feeing system.
DaveC! -
My time definitely 193, said so at the base of the cartridge.
The only coloured bullets we ever saw were the red-tipped tracers.
I'm sure I can find the info on the web... but can can someone kindly enlighten on the performance of the different bullet types?
Some, like the M193 if I'm not wrong, are called boat-tail. Some are not. What's the difference in performance?
And does BTHP stand for "boat-tail hollow point"?
And also if you have a heavier bullet, do you add more erm... "propellent"? (pardon my ignorance of the proper terms).
I had a friend who told me about his home-loading pistol rounds in Wales, apparently its a bit of a science. -
Dave,Originally posted by davechng:wow !nice range.. Meia .. where is this range located?? and what facilities does it has???
the 24" AR must be a tack driver.. I always wanted to built me one this way! and put me a JP or jewell trigger on it! is yours 1:8 or 1:9 twist?? I was thinking to get me those DPMS or Bushmaster lower and built it up! AR is like a kit gun liie the 1911 and CZ!
Heh! have you seen these ammo prices !it is jacking crazy! in Dallas and most Distributor we are out of surplus 308..... 223 is also drying up or extermely expensive !i guess its time to do my reloading again!
DaveC!
My apologies for this late reply. I was tied up at work today and didn't get a chance to post here.
The club to which I belong, the Dakota County Gun Club, is located in Rosemount, Minnesota. It's about a 20-minute drive from my house, and has outdoor pistol, rifle, shotgun and archery ranges. The pistol ranges go out to 25 yards, and the rifles ranges extend from 25 yards all the way out to 300 yards. We also have a couple of bowling pin ranges for pistols.
The 24" AR is indeed a tack driver. Here's a better shot of it:
I built it about three years ago. The upper assembly was built around a DSC 24" stainless bull barrel with a 1-in-8 twist to handle the heavier projectiles. The lower comprises an Eagle Arms receiver with RRA internals and a two-stage match trigger set to break at around 2.5 lbs. The scope is a fairly ordinary Simmons 'Whitetail Classic' 6.5-20X 50mm unit.
With my 75 gr. handloads, this AR is usually able to achieve 200 yard groups like this:
If you do decide to build an AR, the Bushmaster and DPMS lowers will serve you well. With a few exceptions, almost all lower receivers on the market today hold very tight tolerances and conform well to milspec dimensions. If I were building a new AR, my choice of lower would be RRA as they seem to be finished a smidge better.
You're right about ammo prices going through the roof. Even though I handload for all my guns, I'm still feeling the pinch from the rapidly increasing component prices (particularly projectiles). The guys who buy commercial ammo, though, must really be feeling the pain!
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SO I presume the SAR21 has a 1:9 or 1:7 barrel twist like the M16A2 or M4. good to know.
Actually hor, no need to presume... it's part of the specs. They said it quite clearly that the weapon is able, if not optimized to shoot SS109/M855.
Too bad they never really got the troopers down to understand how the bullet and gun really works. -
What do you all feel about the SAF SAR-21's inability to take M16 magazines?
STK could've made a plastic magazine that will fit both M16 and SAR-21 if they had wanted to. But instead, they decided on a propretary plastic mag JUST for the SAR-21.
Is there a reason for this? Is there an advantage in this?
Could this mean that the days of the Ultimax as we know it in SAF service is numbered?
One of the great advantage of the Ultimax is its ability to take M16 magazines - meaning if it ran out of drum ammo, it could be borrow or be supplied simply with M16 mags like the rest of the troops.
But this advantage is null and void since the SAR-21 plastic magazine is proprietary to the SAR-21.
Does it mean that they will either make the Ultimax able to take SAR-21 magazines, or come up with a new SAW?
And also does anyone know why the SAR-21 is not issued with M203? I saw pictures of SAR-21 units with M16/M203. Is it a weight issue as someone suggested? Will mounting a M203 on the SAR-21 make it unacceptably heavy?
This would mean the SAR-21 units would need both types of magazines: plastic ones for SAR-21 and metal ones for M16/M203 and SAW.
Is this a problem logistically? Does this means all units continue to need to be trained in both weapons?
Is this a situation that will persist?
I am not an outright critique of the SAR-21 but it seems to take one step back for every 2 steps forward. -
Think of it as an SAF-level decision.
The SAR-21 in its original form (and indeed itÂ’s export version) can accept both types of mags. I am fuzzy on if the actual thing can take in two different mags or that some modification was needed, but if you look at the pics some posts up youÂ’ll see this is the case.
For some reason the proprietary plastic mag was chosen for SAF use, so one can only speculate on the reasons why.
But I donÂ’t think itÂ’s a big issueÂ… not if you want to move forward anyway. The whole NATO standard metal magazine was a less then idea system to begin with anyway. The lips can be dented, rendering your magazine mostly useless but you wonÂ’t know until you try to chamber a round. Also they canÂ’t really load their supposed 30 rounds reliably and what other issues like busting in the bottom or denting and breaking the body.
The proprietary mag is a step forward for our gruntsÂ… the polymer mag is tough, reliable and allows you to do a full 30 round clip. I would use it anytime over the metal mag.
As for the Ultimax, the whole running the Ultimax on 30-round mags thing was a flawed idea to begin with. The problem is that they still havenÂ’t gotten down to fixing this rather glaring deficiency in our weapons. I know the drum mag could not be fully hand-loaded, but the whole carry 19X 30 round mags isnÂ’t exactly a solution- itÂ’s a stopgap. On if the UltimaxÂ’s days are numbered, thatÂ’s another thing up for speculationÂ… but I donÂ’t really see it as that likely unless they want to introduce the SAR LMGÂ… of which they did have some intentions.
Also, the Ultimax does NOT take M16 mags unless they have been so modified by drilling two holes on the side... it did happen that we did go outfield and realized that not all our mags could be taken by the Ultimax. Which defeats the entire purpose of the whole thing. The thing was meant to be run on a drum.
Maybe they should make a whole new LMG to begin with.
The M16/M203 thing is just for the time being... it's rather obvious they are going to push the SAR-21/M203 to the troops in a matter of time. Maybe they want to complete replacing our entire front line M-16 arsenal first? But yeah, holding two different mags in a section is problematic.
In any case, I donÂ’t think having different mags is an issue. The SAWs werenÂ’t meant to be run on 30 round box mags to begin withÂ… so their mags will always be a logistical issue. Unless a big part of your tactics involve capturing enemy mags and using themÂ… I donÂ’t see how itÂ’s a big issue. -
Although the Ultimax is a good LMG , they shud have done a lot more to make it much better.
The mag is a real setback. Why cud'nt they have a design similar to the Minimi with the 200 round box mag.
Also, the Ultimax is not rugged enough. It shud have been beefed up a bit more to enable it to withstand the knocks and abuse from soldiers at the expense of some weight increase.
What is great about the Ultimax is its " constant " recoil system and accuracy.
A resonably trained and competent NS man cannot miss at 300 to 400 m.
Adding a 4 X scope wud have helped increase range effectiveness up to 600 m. -
The mag is a real setback. Why cud'nt they have a design similar to the Minimi with the 200 round box mag.
You obviously haven't done you homework. The linked belt box system is far from ideal in section level applications.
The problem was that they decided to do away with the drum mags, they really should work out a proper magazine solution for the Ultimax. -
So Tyra, what are Minimis using now ? And what wud be ideal for a LMG ?
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Google, Wikipedia and strategypage are your friends.Originally posted by glock:So Tyra, what are Minimis using now ? And what wud be ideal for a LMG ? -
Google, Wikipedia and strategypage are your friends.
Mine are named Janes.