Singapore to Acquire Refurbished Leopard Tanks
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What I am trying to say is that Leo 2 is not the replacement for SM1 as implied in early report.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:To be fair I think he's making some rather general statements for the media, but if you think about it, tatically speaking I do not think we will be keeping the SM1... it is more likely we are keeping the concept.
In terms of systems that can offer the mobility and combat options required by the role that the SM1 plays, the SM1 is actually one of the weakest contenders in the field. It can't shoot on the move, armor's pratically a joke (even with applique), and for the same weight your typical modern LT is faster, not to mention the ground pressure. As a lot of people have pointed out, mounting a large gun on a BX would make a more capable system then the SM1, and in many roles the BX is already more capable.
I think if it really comes to it, we will trying to aquire a new LT.
The concept of light Fire Supprt AFV is still needed. -
may i repeat and quote gary1910 posting here in full:
Leopard_2A4---surplus Leopards are being sold at "fire-sale prices" that can hover in the $1 million per vehicle range, as opposed to the $5+ million per vehicle one must expect for modern Western contemporaries.
Singapore's AMX-13 SM1--The new arrivals of Leopard_2A4 will complement existing force of 300-350 AMX-13 sM1 tanks, a heavily modernized version of a 20-ton tank designed for paratroop support that saw extensive action in the 1967 Six Day War.
How many would believe that sg has 300--350 AMX-13 SM1?
Asian Tiger Ordering Leopards,posted 12-Dec-2006
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/12/asian-tiger-ordering-leopards/index.phpSingapore's Ministry of Defence has announced that they intend to strike an agreement with the German Federal Ministry of Defence for the sale of 96 Leopard 2A4 tanks (66 front-line, 30 spares) plus training and supporting equipment from the German Armed Forces to the Singapore Armed Forces. SAF soldiers will be trained by the German Army to operate the tank in the later part of 2007.
Singapore Today Online quotes Defence Minster Teo Chee Hean as saying that the first Leopard 2A4s will enter service in about a year or a year and a half. "We looked at a number of different alternatives and the German offer of refurbished Leopard tanks is a very cost-effective option for us to start replacing some of the SM1s." Given DID's past coverage of Germany's Leopard sales, this point is hardly surprising; what might be surprising is that Singapore plans to keep its upgraded 1960s-era AMX-13s in service even after the Leopards arrive...
As Defense News noted back in a March 2005 article:
"How dramatic the [German] Army's transformation really is can be seen in Structure 2010, to be adopted as of 2007. The service will reduce its fleet of main battle tanks from 2,528 to 350, infantry fighting vehicles from 2,077 to 410, artillery pieces from 1,055 to 120 and helicopters from 530 to 240..."
While price was not disclosed in the Singapore deal, the surplus Leopards are being sold at "fire-sale prices" that can hover in the $1 million per vehicle range, as opposed to the $5+ million per vehicle one must expect for modern Western contemporaries.
Even the far-inferior T-72 has difficulty competing at this level, and the only thing keeping Leopard sales from jumping far beyond the European continent has been restrictive German arms export policies. Meanwhile, entrenching the Leopard 2 as the "the Euro-LEOPARD" may offer other future benefits for German industry.
LAND_AMX-13-SM1.jpg
Singapore's AMX-13 SM1
(click to view full)
The new arrivals will complement the existing force of 300-350 AMX-13 sM1 tanks, a heavily modernized version of a 20-ton tank designed for paratroop support(lionnoisy note:read my yesterday posting fo JDW confirmation for the number) that saw extensive action in the 1967 Six Day War. Singapore has made updates and ongoing improvements to these vehicles something of a local specialty, running refurbishment programs in the 1980s and 1990s [see PDF for full modification details].
Defense Minister Hean has stated that the SM1s will be kept in service even after the Leopards arrive. While the Leopard 2A4s will be significantly superior in many respects, including electronics and networking options as Singapore pursues its "3G" force, the SM1 has three things going for it.
Numbers game
One is that numbers can still be useful on the battlefield.
already up graded
The second consideration is that the improvements made to the SM1 have kept it in shape as a capable combatant relative to neighbouring threats.
mobility
The third consideration is that the AMX-13 SM1s' 20 tonne weight gives them mobility options that the 62 tonne Leopards can't duplicate, and make it especially useful given Singapore's environs -
Actually having an extra crew member can help in the servicing of the tank which happens often in the field...this is something an auto loader can't do. He can also cross trained to be either a gunner or driver to act as back up should one crew member is out of action.Originally posted by Shotgun:
Human or auto-loader. I guess that would be the eventual question.
Arguably, the human is perhaps more versatile and would not fail for no reason. The Auto-loader is (in the T-72 case) is reliable to mechanical problems and malfunctions. Loading also takes longer. (However Newer T-90s have demonstrated the ability to fire every 4.3 sec on the move, but of the same round type.)
However, if the auto-loader was to fail. The vehicle would be VOR until the malfunction is repaired to be put back into service. A human loader need only be replaced.Personally, I am in favor of having a loader in MBTs. Being able to switch from APFSDS round to HEAT rounds without having to "cycle" the magazine is one advantage. Being able to replace the human loader rather than having a team of mechanics work on the complex loading mechanism also appeals.
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Originally posted by calvin2224:
One thing i am sure of is that SAF owned these tanks and the Taiwanese have no access to it (not even taking photos) in peace time. But during war time, this case may change.
I speculate that the Centurions are in Taiwan as part of a political deal. We obtained training space and Taiwanese assistance in exchange for parking the tanks there as part of their bulwark against mainland China. Probably with the concordance of the US too, I suspect. In the 70's, ganging up with Taiwan and USA against China was quite necessary politically. We could reap the benefits of military and political assistance without become an official member of SEATO. Perhaps the Centurions were never meant to be ours to start with, but are permanently on loan to the Taiwanese by the source country through us. Many countries do not want to be seen arming Taiwan, and Singapore is quite a useful and not to say, safe conduit that won't anger the mainland. In times of cross-straits trouble, the Taiwanese probably get access to the tanks. -
Originally posted by equlus84:
Its for training purposes. As you can see ROC hardly have any military ties with the rest of the world as compared to Singapore's extensive ties. The only countries who have significant military ties with them are only US and Singapore. That been said they will most likely want to exercise with us to learn from us and to test their doctrine and capability. Of course we have things to learn from them too. For example i feel that their troops have good if not better discipline. It benefits us both.
I was wondering since the centurions are more or less classified stuff. Then they position 10 vehicles in Taiwan, how on earth is the Bn pratise a Bn lvl of armoured exercise or maneuver? Or was it just a pure paper and dice style of exercise? Those remaining centurions in SG, how on earth are they going to carry out exercise here without letting other noe. I mean usually u will encounter various vocation Bn having exercise at LCK, besides, there are always some civilians sneaking in there to trap wild boars and hunt for wild fruits.
Talking abt exercise in Taiwan, I read from one of their forums that the recent Han Kwang 19 exercise, a brigade from SG was sent there to simulate the PRC army, dun they think this is a bad idea as we also use western equipments and doctrines, thus how to sim the red army? Just like wad benefits can Taiwan get by interacting with our operators using the centurions? -
This is probably why not all tanks have gone autoloading yet, not until the autoloader technology can be worked out to become reliable enough and give such a high rate of fire that it is worth having around over a human loader.Originally posted by tankee1981:Actually having an extra crew member can help in the servicing of the tank which happens often in the field...this is something an auto loader can't do. He can also cross trained to be either a gunner or driver to act as back up should one crew member is out of action.
I'm still for manual loading... until they can make some autoloader load and fire a 120mm gun like 30 rounds a minute, is extremely reliable and nearly impossible to foul. That'll be cool. -
Why asian tiger? And not Asian LION... since we're a lion city, singapura.
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if we're the harimau ... then the other one's a ...... kuching ? ....Originally posted by wonderamazement:Why asian tiger? And not Asian LION... since we're a lion city, singapura. 
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My speculation:
Officially, we recognise PRC as the legitimate China, NOT Taiwan.
We do not have any military ties with Taiwan officially, I believe.
We do not share any equipment development technology or share equipment etc with ROC forces.
Mostly, we do not even train with them although we often mingle for a friendly chat when in the same training areas.
I am also quite certain we do not have any defense pact with Taiwan, either. If PRC invades, we will not join in the fray.
The only thing we have with them is the lease of their camps, training areas and maybe some non-essential equipment.
EDITED...
I also believe that PRC had been long aware - if not informed by SG authorities - of our special arrangement with ROC. (corrected)
(In the end, our relationship with PRC even then was considered highest priority.)
And there is no way the superb PRC intel doesn't know about our training in ROC. Though we wore ROC uniforms while there, I believe this was just a small courtesy to the big brother in Beijing.
This sensitivity IMO is the only reason that for decades the authorities censor any talk of our training in ROC - again out of respect for PRC. Now that sensitivity had been relaxed somewhat. I could be wrong...
Anyway, just my speculations... -
Originally posted by moca
I believe there may be a typo error above. I think moca meant ROC instead.
I also believe that PRC had been long aware - if not informed by SG authorities - of our special arrangement with PRC. -
Again, it is my opinion the Leopard is not going to phase out the enitre fleet of SM-1.
Just like the F-16 didn't phase out the F-5E Tiger II. Just like the F-15 will not phase out the F-16 and F-5E entirely.
The SM-1 will now just play only its original purpose-built role of being a Light Tank, instead of trying to be a REAL tank.
And 300 mobile 75mm gun platforms is still useful no matter what for fire support etc.
But I do suspect that the number of SM-1 will be significantly reduced over the coming years. Not only becos of wear and tear but also becos of numbers of crewmen. SAF is not suddenly going to magick more people to run so many vehicles especially with population decline.
Some SM-1 crewmen will be converted to Leos and their SM-1 likely put into storage as spares or sold to E. Timor or something. I forsee the reitrement of at least 100 SM-1 as soon as the Leos become fully operational.
To begin with, whether we ever had ALL 300 SM-1's being operational at one time is still questionable. Just because we have 300 doesn't necessarily mean we operate all of them at once. -
thanks...correctedOriginally posted by tankee1981:I believe there may be a typo error above. I think moca meant ROC instead. -
Some SAF excercises in ROC commence at the southern tip of the island. And the shape of the island does resemble Peninsula Malaysia.
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Maybe SAF armour oughta review it's unofficial but 'prohibitive' policy against the recruitment of citizens from a particular population segment. Just a thoughtOriginally posted by moca:... but also becos of numbers of crewmen. SAF is not suddenly going to magick more people to run so many vehicles especially with population decline. -
Seriously speaking, 300-350 SM-1s is just a paper strength. Mindef would not disclose how many of them are already beyond repair, and how many have been "thrown" into to the sea already. I doubt foreign intelligence sources such as JDW etc would be able to estimate as well.
I say this cos I've seen quite a "few" rusting AMX-13/SM-1 derelict hulls before. -
But given the size of our army, 350 tanks is more realistic. There are 4 active armoured units, every 2 1/2 years one cycle. Even if we just take 12.5 years, that would yield 20 battalions. How can you have so many soldiers in armoured battalions if you only have say...150 tanks??
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Actually no one truly know how many AMX-13 we have in operational, just like how many Centurion or Skyhawk.
Reason is the same , remember the Skyhawk, we bought the first batch of 2nd hand refurbished a/c , but the 2nd batch was actually refurbished by us by getting a large qty of airframes, how many was refurbished and how many was slated as spares, nobody knows, that is why we see quoted from 60~ 80+.
Likewise for our AMX-13 and Centurion, nobody truly know how many hulls we have becos they were actually bought from scrapyard in the 70s and 80s.
We send some technicians and engineers over there , to inspect and chose them , some of them are refurbished and some could be used as spares.
The reported 350 AMX-13s I should say is just a estimate. Only SAF will truly know how many we have.
Just as Saneguy have many armoured Bn, likewise we also have many only slated for training in oversea, so I am sure that the number is certainly not small. -
Not all 350 tanks would be used for training remember. Every army practices op storage. That is, vehicles and equipment that are in tip top condition reserved for actual operations. And remember, our armor formations operate another crapload of M113s and BXs as well.Originally posted by sane_guy2:But given the size of our army, 350 tanks is more realistic. There are 4 active armoured units, every 2 1/2 years one cycle. Even if we just take 12.5 years, that would yield 20 battalions. How can you have so many soldiers in armoured battalions if you only have say...150 tanks??
I'm not saying we have only 150 tanks. What I mean is, open source paper numbers may not reflect the actual number of vehicles we have when the button is pushed. -
on a per capita basis and if you keep terrain as neutral, armour will provide more firepower per "head".Originally posted by IAF:Maybe SAF armour oughta review it's unofficial but 'prohibitive' policy against the recruitment of citizens from a particular population segment. Just a thought
an infantry section has 7 men. a Leopard need 4 men to "run" but might have a "tail" or a few AFV techs and ammo supply and so on. but the firepower of a Leo is so much higher then an infantry section.
I am not saying that infantry is "useless" which it is not, but i think having more focus on armour is actually "addressing" populatin decline... in a way. we can maintain equivalent firepower with less people.
Maybe we will "change" one of our combined arms division to a "armoured" dvision, with two Armd brigade and 1 Mech Inf Bde..... -
our total population isnt declining.. its growing at an annual 3.3% (faster then malaysia)for the last 10 years due to longer lifespan and immigration policies, but we are facing a greying... population due to falling birth rate.Originally posted by moca:But I do suspect that the number of SM-1 will be significantly reduced over the coming years. Not only becos of wear and tear but also becos of numbers of crewmen. SAF is not suddenly going to magick more people to run so many vehicles especially with population decline.
but for the next 10 years... our enlistment number will be the highest ever due to the population spike that started 18 years ago.
only in recent years has our birthrate taken a nosedive... but i expect the govt to make up for the shortfall with an aggressive immigration policies... as well as manpower saving innovations. -
Surge in NS Intake
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2004/jun/15jun04_nr/15jun04_speech.html
The second key factor is the coming surge in the National Service intake. This is the enabler that allows us to make the transition to a shorter NS duration now. There will be a
15% to 20% increase in the annual intake of full-time National Servicemen over ten years starting from 2006. This surge is a result of the higher number of births per year starting in the ‘Dragon’ year of 1988 and lasting till 1997. This surge in NS intake over the next ten years will allow us to maintain our operational readiness and standing force requirements even as we move to a 24-month National Service system and carry out the transformation towards the leaner 3rd Generation SAF. -
Interesting comparisons
M1A2 vs Merkava, Leopard 2 on another forum
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3101927042/m/5071907726
Old-style T-72 combat performance in Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_of_Babylon_tank
There were reports of a few T-72s surviving ATGW hits - not too shabby performance. -
Heres what mrbrown had to say about the Leopards
http://cache.libsyn.com/mb/tmbs-061214-used_tanks_with_coe_for_sale.mp3 -
Some people either have too much time on their hands, like to degrade themselves or just like to make a laughing stock of themselves. I thought his blog was shut down by the govt?Originally posted by fallin:Heres what mrbrown had to say about the Leopards
http://cache.libsyn.com/mb/tmbs-061214-used_tanks_with_coe_for_sale.mp3 -
What's wrong with him? I take offence at that statement.Originally posted by ^Delta^:Some people just like to make a laughing stock of themselves. I thought his blog was shut down by the govt?
Satire is an art not many people can understand though. But, you don't go around condemning people for their views do you?
He's much more of a Singaporean than I can say about the govt anyday..