Singapore to Acquire Refurbished Leopard Tanks
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Actually i seriously do suspect that they already have the T-80s. Reason being that their Deftech are already technology partners with the Ukrainians.Originally posted by Shotgun:
I have to disagree mildly. I believe the light AFV main body is to be backed up by the Leopard2s, not the other way round.
Some crucial updates I believe should be made available to the Leopard 2A4.
-CITV "Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer" with turret override option. Allows the tank commander to acquire seperate targets while gunner is engaging and if necessary, override the turret for higher priority targets.
-BMS, when fully operational that is.
-Remote overhead TC's machine gun. Allows the Tank Commander to fire his MG without going hatch out via CITV.
Btw, IIRC, the sloped armor of the A5/A6 is the "spaced" armor component of the turret's protection.As for the M'sians.... lets keep things friendly lar. PT-91s are relatively low-cost MBTs to operate. However, i feel that they should have gone with the T-80Us from Ukraine... =)
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All they need is a warhead so powerful it destroys every tank.Originally posted by Fatum:there's no such thing as an invulnerable tank .... all you need is a big enough warhead ....
so ... you drill and exercise .... and perfect your tactics ....
And a Tank so armoured that it can repel all warheads. -
The way some of you talk about our neighbour..........Alamak!! Can don't so YAYA or not?
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when do you think the new tank will be on NDP ah ? ...
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Well, nationalistic fevor from both sides means that we would end up trying to downplay or belittle each other whenever something like this happens. If you can get Pakistanis arguing why their local tank is the best tank in the world (better then the M1 as well) it's no surprise that some Malaysians would be concerned about downplaying the Cat. When the SAR-21 came out, it was by all respects a decent weapon but we got plenty of Malaysian folks who made it a point to try to highlight why it HAD to be inferior to the Aug... for many varied and equally invalid reasons that ended up quite funny. I mean quality aside (of which I hardly think the SAR is inferior), it's really marksmanship and tatics that make a weapon effective. I'm not too surprised if their army got the Cat, they would be rushing to praise it. But lets be sensible about this and see the facts yah?
Force for force the SAF will have want to equip a superior weapon system to what the Malaysians might field because in the long run if there's really a race we cannot maintain an advantage in numbers, hence piecemeal we need better equipment. AFAIK, the Cat is not a clumsly tank... not any more then the M1 could be considered clumsly when it outgunned and outmanuvered T-72s (on which guess what tank is based on?) in both Gulf Wars. Crew training is far more important. I believe the Israelis, who are an avid user to "big and clumsly" western tanks in all their conflicts ended up making the merky, and have a good reason not going T-72.
In all fairness, the PT-91 can't be as bad as Saddam's ten camels per MBT T-72s that got pwned in a closed range melee with M1A2 SEPs during Gulf War 2, but as one says, to gain the advantages it has over western tanks like smaller profile it gives up a lot of issues. If you are in a war, you certainly do not want to go into it in a soviet tank, unless it's the Black Eagle or something.
I don't see the big concern about the Leo's frontal armour, it is still sloped wat, though the "cheeks" that the A5 and A6 versions have would be good. ST will certainly fiddle about it with, and the first batch of Cats we are getting are also probably for "testing, testing" reasons. Said and done, I think this Cat purchase is something we can be happy about.
I did see one picture of a malaysia T80U undergoing runs in a oil palm plantation some time back.
Actually i seriously do suspect that they already have the T-80s. Reason being that their Deftech are already technology partners with the Ukrainians. -
I agree. In fact they probably have a number of T-80UD, bought by Pakistan too and approaches the capability of the T-84. Or perhaps they have the T-84 already. Both types are extremely dangerous opponents even to a Leopard 2 and we should be prudent.Originally posted by tankee1981:Actually i seriously do suspect that they already have the T-80s. Reason being that their Deftech are already technology partners with the Ukrainians.
Sidenote:
The Ukrainians are not exactly transparent in their arms sales. For instance look at Su-27/Mig-29/MiG-23/MiG-21 fighters appearing in the air forces of African countries like Ethiopia and Eritrea without any publicity at all. They can only afford small numbers and their servicibility is low but it is an unspoken fact that Ukraine is the place to buy arms from if you want to keep a low profile. -
Well, I don't care if we just use the Leopard for NDP.. We have the money, we should have had MBT to show off long, long ago.
Anyway, MBT definitely do not replace Light Tanks. Every major nation that operates MBT do not discard their Light Tanks. They simply do different jobs.
My gripe has always been that we have only Light Tanks and no MBTs. Light Tanks have small guns and can be knocked out as easily as our other APC and IFV by infantry AT weapons.
At least MBT armour protection might stand some chance. Now with MBT at least our armour organisation is complete.
I personally do not think that our AMX-13 might necessarily be retired. 66 MBT is no replacement for 300 Light Tanks. I'm sure give a few more years and there will be only 100 of them still operable, given their age. But I think they will be continue serving with the MBT until we buy or build a new Light Tank.
Neither do I think that our Centurions will necessarily be replaced by the Leopards. If we have enough crew we may still operate both types.
We have about 70 each of the Leopards and Centurions. These are pretty small numbers.
During the major wars fought in the Middle East, one side can have 70 tanks out of action in ONE day (though some maybe can be repaired later). Especially in Yom Kippur, a lot of these were infantry-inflicted damage. Tank on tank, the IDF always won.
With side reference to attack choppers: In many situations, they still have to expose themselves to ground fire to get a good shot. -
heard in e news jus now tat e first batch of e Leopards will arrive in 2008..
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that probably means that the first batch of leopard trained tankees would be ready by then too ....Originally posted by Qi_ming:heard in e news jus now tat e first batch of e Leopards will arrive in 2008..
wallaby's going to be more and more interesting now .... -
You do not win war by taking over forest & jungles. You win by taking over cities and towns.Originally posted by orionlight:"Experts"
say that the Leo2A4 are too heavy and "clumsy" than the twardys to be used in the SEA terrain especially in forests and plantations areas, so what's the take of our mil nuts here?
The saying that SEA is not suitable for tanks are say by the british before WII. That time the best road is still dirt tracks , and even the dirt track manage to support the japanese tanks ....
Nowaday it is totally a different story... all over is highway and roads , even in plantation environment, the ground is hard enough, as proven in Malaysia, a lot of their palm plantation are using heavy machinery to do the harvesting , thus if the plantation can support the weight of those machinery, no problem with tanks. -
Speaking of NDP, I don't expect to see the tanks in 2008 because the trend is to see the armoured column once every 5 years. Incidentally, our Strike Eagles are gonna be delivered around the same time. Thus, the "ultimate" NDP for me would the armoured column with Leopards, followed by a F-15SG fly-pass and a naval inspection of our steath frigates. Yes, I'd die of esctasy on take glorious day in 2010 if that were true man.
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How possible ?? Hmm, as least we are able to get some decent piece of machine for the mobile column ...Originally posted by fallin:Speaking of NDP, I don't expect to see the tanks in 2008 because the trend is to see the armoured column once every 5 years. Incidentally, our Strike Eagles are gonna be delivered around the same time. Thus, the "ultimate" NDP for me would the armoured column with Leopards, followed by a F-15SG fly-pass and a naval inspection of our steath frigates. Yes, I'd die of esctasy on take glorious day in 2010 if that were true man. -
Because since the National Stadium gonna be torn down, our NDPs gonna be held at Marina South for the time being. Not sure if they're still gonna be there by 2010 but I sure hope so.Originally posted by gd4u:How possible ?? Hmm, as least we are able to get some decent piece of machine for the mobile column ... -
Therefore it will be foolish to assume that MAF only have the 48 PT-91Ms...there may be plenty of T-80/T-84s in hiding...just like our Centurions are in the dark while the SM1 is in the public...Originally posted by ^Delta^:I agree. In fact they probably have a number of T-80UD, bought by Pakistan too and approaches the capability of the T-84. Or perhaps they have the T-84 already. Both types are extremely dangerous opponents even to a Leopard 2 and we should be prudent.
Sidenote:
The Ukrainians are not exactly transparent in their arms sales. For instance look at Su-27/Mig-29/MiG-23/MiG-21 fighters appearing in the air forces of African countries like Ethiopia and Eritrea without any publicity at all. They can only afford small numbers and their servicibility is low but it is an unspoken fact that Ukraine is the place to buy arms from if you want to keep a low profile. -
Heard we asked for 100% offset and wanted mostly everything replaced or refurbished.
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Something like what we did to the Challenger class submarines?Originally posted by EHT123:Heard we asked for 100% offset and wanted mostly everything replaced or refurbished. -
i wonder who are they sourcing the other parts(FCS,optics) that are replaced from if it is really 100% offset
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Heard of the chinese saying, "Lion open big mouth?"
Maybe after getting the refurbished "cats", the Leopard 2 might be renamed to Lion 2?
Yeah, I saw the pics of the T-80s in trial tests in M'sia. But never quite heard anything about them being absorbed into service. The T-80 and T-84 series of tanks are really much more capable than the PT-91s by far. However, IIRC, they are also wider. -
Correction. NDP to be held on a floating platform in Marina Bay, not Marina South (where Sands is going to build its casino).Originally posted by fallin:Because since the National Stadium gonna be torn down, our NDPs gonna be held at Marina South for the time being. Not sure if they're still gonna be there by 2010 but I sure hope so.
And because of the completion of the Marina barrage, no naval ships will be able to enter the bay (lest overland transportation but thats just plain silly for just a parade) -
Damn... please post the handle.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:You know some time back there was this poster who decided to refute Defending the Lion City by introducing his own story in which all the pros of Malaysian hardware and training is shown and all the cons of the SAF are played up (Milans not working, Longbows dismissed as unimportant, SAF Stealth Frigates not appearing in story) and stuff. Wonder what is his take on this. Maybe he'll find a way to make the Leo2 sound like a T-55.
You are giving out the impression that, that poster was me... -
I think it is HARIMAU,Originally posted by MobyDog:Damn... please post the handle.
You are giving out the impression that, that poster was me...
just search for him through and you can see all his threads liao -
Im sure that our good friends at DSTA and ST kinetics would do up the Leopards into good shape.. leopard 2A4S anyone?
By the way its unlikely, that we will drive far into Msia highways.. JB the most? Dun forget we are a defensive nation..leopards are good enough on our PIEs and KJEs.. SM 1s on streets like Geylang, Katong or some streets in the north sorry i live in the east -
our army like a lot of 2nd hand stuff hor? ok lah... at least they choose stuff that has been proven succuessful, not so bad
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Well, in any case, if we are going to move in to Malysia, they would have rigged the roads well before we move in. Barriers will also be placed there, least to say booby traps.
Well, lets just hope the new Leopard tanks can give Singapore Glory! -
No, our army like to zhng nissan into ferrari.Originally posted by tomsss:our army like a lot of 2nd hand stuff hor? ok lah... at least they choose stuff that has been proven succuessful, not so bad