Singapore to Acquire Refurbished Leopard Tanks
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The end result of Singapore refurnishement !!!
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I'll send some secret service agents over to kill you tonight, for revealing the secret that we have Transformers in our inventory.
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But we already have those MCV cum transformers in the RSN!!! (Hint: Remember the tv advertisment?)Originally posted by storywolf:The end result of Singapore refurnishement !!! -
My POV, don't like, don't watch, don't see, don't listen.Originally posted by Shotgun:Totally understand where you're coming from. You do bring up valid points of concern.
However, my opinion is that majority of Singaporeans (non-milnuts) don't really care to know if our "2nd hand tanks" are modern or not. Nor do they even understand the difference between an AMX-13 SM1 light tank and a Leopard2A4 MBT. For these people, who don't care to know, its already a bonus that they are informed that their money is used to buy military hardware regardless of their source being Mr Brown or Straits Times.
For those who naively believe that the RSAF bought 30 year old warplanes, and WW2 tanks to replace the SM1, they will realise their mistakes someday, perhaps thru an embarrassing discussion with one of us milnuts.
If the people in charge of procurement feel disrespected, offended by how Mr Brown has portrayed them, then they should be more open with regards to procurement plans (within limitations of course). The problem is that people don't know how the procurement process works, and Mindef doesn't want to talk about it. SO when signed and sealed deal like the Leopard2 purchase suddenly popped up, people don't understand and speculate lor.
From the podcast, Mr Brown probably doesn't have a clue how procurement works, and since Mindef/Govt can't be bothered to explain either, theres really no one to blame for the speculation and belief that SAF likes to buy cheapo-2nd hand equipment. You have to admit, on the surface, that IS what it looks like. Not everyone will delve into subject matters like this, certainly not the average singaporean, certainly not Mr Brown.
Chill out and just watch the people make a fool of themselves. =) -
Actually if all of us take a step back and compare our society to others, maybe say even China, ROC or the Phillipines. It is quite sad to say that our society just isnt mature enough.
This is not a personal attack as I totally understand the people who find mr brown's jokes offensive.
Like the example quoted about British comedy cracking jokes about their government, the people understand that the opposite is true because they are mature enough to know. If it was in Singapore, people will simply complain and start worrying about others which leads me to another question.
I understand we live in a Social Responsibility model of the media therefore somehow we are accustomed to think for others. While this is certainly commendable, in this scenario do they REALLY need to know that its the best tank in the world?
Even if they do accept and take it as a lousy piece of crap bought by the govt. Well they may complain, but if they were told the facts about it, they just make themselves look stupid.
its true that many ordinary citizens take it at face value on the jokes, im sure people in other democratic nations do as well. like what shotgun said, sooner or later they will find out the truth about it one way or another, we do not need to force the truth down their throats. If they want to find out, im sure they will know how to.
Its a vicious cycle if we continue to impose self-censorship, I'd say we let the people think for themselves rather than let opinion leaders think for them.
peace
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I might have overreacted a bit, sorry 2 those tat feel offended
But Fingolfin_Noldor do u really feel SAF is really so useless cos your officer say so? 
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take it with a grain of salt...
When brown does it against the gov... how did they react?
When brown talk abt tanks.. how u all react?
I find the podcast silly. tats the end of it... why say until so chia lat?
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Self-censorship is an illusion dreamed up by those who would want to remain in control but not appear to be in, for reasons relating to PR and image.
This breeds pre-emptive silence and does not create a free economy of ideas. -
okay okay, gents, please ... tis the military nuts ....
if I want to yank about such stuff, i'd go over to speakers corner alright ...
now let's talk about tanks please ... -
Ok guys why don't we try to predict how much 'refurbishment' our LeoA4 will get before delivery shall we?
I predict we might even reach the standard of A5/A6. We may have a few Leopard 2 PSO versions for dedicated urban warfare which can also double up for peace keeping missions. Comments?
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-Smoke grenade change to 76mm ones.Originally posted by tankee1981:Ok guys why don't we try to predict how much 'refurbishment' our LeoA4 will get before delivery shall we?
I predict we might even reach the standard of A5/A6. We may have a few Leopard 2 PSO versions for dedicated urban warfare which can also double up for peace keeping missions. Comments?
-GPMG should be using the same ones as those mounted on our AMX,Bx,Ultra
-No add-on armor plates
-Head/tail lights same as Bx,Ultra
-to use as many common spares with AMX,Bx,Ultra as possible. -
Possible future upgrade to our Leopards.Check this out!
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Files/tanks.140mm-gun.kruse.pdf -
I would be keeping my eyes out for the PSO equivalents. I think it's a good move to change the role of a MBT from a purely offensive weapon to something that can perform a mix of combat, low-intensity and non-combat tasks.Originally posted by tankee1981:Ok guys why don't we try to predict how much 'refurbishment' our LeoA4 will get before delivery shall we?
I predict we might even reach the standard of A5/A6. We may have a few Leopard 2 PSO versions for dedicated urban warfare which can also double up for peace keeping missions. Comments? -
Shud refurbish Leopards according to their primary role & if it is to counter MBTs, priority upgrades shud include the following at the minimum : -
1. CITV & new thermal sights for hunter / killer capability
2. Updated fire controls
3. BMS ( already planned ) & other compatable comms withour other systems
4. Additional armor
Always nice to have everything to get up close to A6 standard or better but it is a matter of cost. -
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We are gonna rename our leopards right?
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Its possible to spend more on the upgrading since we have saved considerably in the initial purchase of the tanks. So getting close to A5/A6 is very possible.Originally posted by glock:
Shud refurbish Leopards according to their primary role & if it is to counter MBTs, priority upgrades shud include the following at the minimum : -
1. CITV & new thermal sights for hunter / killer capability
2. Updated fire controls
3. BMS ( already planned ) & other compatable comms withour other systems
4. Additional armorAlways nice to have everything to get up close to A6 standard or better but it is a matter of cost. -
If our refurbishment is substantial enough, yes we may be able to add a S or SG some where.Originally posted by Shotgun:We are gonna rename our leopards right? -
Why not the M1 Abrams? Why they want Leopards?
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Noldor , think you totally miss interpret your officers !!!Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Some people don't seem to understand a joke... sigh...
Hey, survival of Singapore? Even the officers admit we can survive only 3 days. So let's not bother about a determined invasion shall we?
They are are not saying that we can survive only 3 days. They are saying that we need to survive for 3 days only - because by then , with all our planes ,tanks and ships all in action, think there is nothing left of the other side that is left that is still worth bombing !!! -
M1 abrams just eat too much fuel !!! think 1/4 more fuel .Originally posted by sand king:Why not the M1 Abrams? Why they want Leopards?
Also in tank warfare a lot of time , the tanks is in waiting or idle stage, which for diesel engine at this stage it use very little fuel, while the M1 regardless of idle - still consume the same amount of fuel. As in wwII german tanks although good, they are worthless if they do not have enough fuels.
Anyway Leopards are all classified as equal to M1, althought a lot of military expert put them better than M1.
As german is now downsizing army, leopard at really at rock bottom price, which is so much better.
Seem like leopard is design to cater more easiler for future add on upgrades.
leoprard also lighter then M1, which is a advantage. -
Oh, but shouldnt the M1 be better then the Leopard? The Leopard has been in service for quite long already right? And the M1 is reletivey new.Originally posted by storywolf:M1 abrams just eat too much fuel !!! think 1/4 more fuel .
Also in tank warfare a lot of time , the tanks is in waiting or idle stage, which for diesel engine at this stage it use very little fuel, while the M1 regardless of idle - still consume the same amount of fuel. As in wwII german tanks although good, they are worthless if they do not have enough fuels.
Anyway Leopards are all classified as equal to M1, althought a lot of military expert put them better than M1.
As german is now downsizing army, leopard at really at rock bottom price, which is so much better.
Seem like leopard is design to cater more easiler for future add on upgrades.
leoprard also lighter then M1, which is a advantage. -
Will the Leopard Tanks delivered in the standard NATO colours? Fingers-crossed
Or be repainted in the standard Army colours of 'drab'
Really wonder....
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Nope. Both the M1 and the Leopard 2 were born around the same time, around the same programme even. Unfortunately, the due to some Disagreements, the Germans decided to develop the Leopard 2 tank on their own.Originally posted by sand king:Oh, but shouldnt the M1 be better then the Leopard? The Leopard has been in service for quite long already right? And the M1 is reletivey new.
Perhaps, the Leo 2A4 would be roughly as capable as the M1A1 without the DU armor. The M1A1(HA) series were better in armor protection due to the added DU Armor. But that also increased its weight dramatically, to about 67tons! -
Originally posted by Shotgun:Nope. Both the M1 and the Leopard 2 were born around the same time, around the same programme even. Unfortunately, the due to some Disagreements, the Germans decided to develop the Leopard 2 tank on their own.
Perhaps, the Leo 2A4 would be roughly as capable as the M1A1 without the DU armor. The M1A1(HA) series were better in armor protection due to the added DU Armor. But that also increased its weight dramatically, to about 67tons!
i heard that the M1A1's turbine engine is a killer to maintain!