US carrier unknowingly being shadowed by chinese sub...
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sampans ? quite a feat to catch up with those ships
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Quite hard to fathom the alliance btw Al Qaeda & Iran,considering that the former adheres to Sunni Islam while the latter predominantly adheres to Shi'a Islam,and both denominations have long history of disputes with each other. Well,unless both adopts the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach,like Catholic France siding Protestant states against Catholic coalitions led by Austrian House of Habsburg during the Thirty Year's War,Originally posted by SpecOps87:No doubt the war in Korea will plunge the region into economic crisis, the N.Koreans are very unpredictable and unstable in their policies. Also, heard over the radio today that Iran is openly adopting Al Qaeda into their country as a base for operations, it actually creates more trouble to the US and bring to the world greater volatility. Coz they have got immunity in Iran ain't it, and the international community can do nuts about it. But unless there's the capability to eliminate foreign heads of states quietly, then the presence of CVs and ICBM armed subs in any region will be less present won't it? -
Our SSKs "sunk" the US carrier in an exercise in sweden.
"Fire Control" sonars... errm.. Not really lar. From what I understand, u only have a Target motion analysis for torpedo solutions.
Malaysian special forces boarding a US Destroyer with a sampan... sounds like some dream to me. Sampan need navigation chart for what? -
Actually, to be fair, it is not difficult for a submarine to shadow or strike at a vessel when the vessel is not in a high state of alert during times of peace.
Am reading Falklands War now and that was probably one of the greatest engagement involving opposing navies in modern times. You need a war to show up all the strengths and weaknesses of weapon systems, doctrines, SOPs and training.
In that war, the Brits fought their ship's air defence system performing with less than sterling results. -
So it's no joke...
Chinese submarine came close to US carrier group: Pacific commander
The Associated PressPublished: November 13, 2006
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/14/asia/AS_GEN_Malaysia_US_Carrier_Incident.php
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia: A Chinese submarine came close to the USS Kitty Hawk carrier group in the Pacific Ocean last month, a top U.S. naval commander confirmed Tuesday, adding the encounter could have triggered an "unforeseen" incident.
A Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, however, said she had not heard of such an incident.
The aircraft carrier and its supporting ships were conducting exercises in an unidentified location when the encounter occurred, Adm. William Fallon, the commander of U.S. Pacific Command, told reporters.
The carrier group was not engaged in anti-submarine exercises, but if it had, "and if this Chinese sub came in the middle of this, then it could have escalated into something that could have been very unforeseen," he said.
Today in Asia - Pacific
Malaysia's leader warns of religious and ethnic tensions
In Australia, scandals dog Labor Party
Pakistan softens Islamic law in favor of rape victimsFallon, who is in Kuala Lumpur for a 23-nation Chief of Defense Forces meeting, did not give any other details. He was commenting on a report on The Washington Times' Web site that said a Chinese submarine "stalked" the Kitty Hawk and surfaced within torpedo firing range.
The newspaper said the carrier group was operating close to Okinawa at the time of the incident.
"It illustrates the primary reason why we are trying to push, to have better military-to-military relationships" with China, Fallon said.
"Because the fact is that you have military units that operate in close proximity to one another," he said, warning of "the potential for events that would not be what we'd like to see."
In Beijing, Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu could not say if the incident had indeed occurred.
"I have not heard of such a report," she said at a regular news briefing Tuesday. "China has always had a defensive national defense policy. We are an adamant force in maintaining peace and stability in the Asia-Pacific region as well as the world at large," she said.
Fallon's disclosure came at the same time the commander of the U.S. Pacific fleet, Adm. Gary Roughead, was in China overseeing the first ever joint exercise, scheduled to start Nov. 19, between the U.S. and Chinese navies.
"It's a modest search-and-rescue exercise, but it's a start ... so that we can move ahead from what I would characterize as kind of Cold War thinking," Fallon said.
Fallon has visited China three times since taking office about 18 months ago to boost contacts and reduce the potential for miscalculations.
Visits between the Chinese and American militaries dropped off after the collision of a U.S. spy plane and a Chinese fighter jet off China's coast in 2001 but relations have improved recently as Washington cautiously seeks to increase exchanges.
China declined an invitation to attend the Kuala Lumpur meeting, but Fallon said he was hopeful they would in the future. -
was it a challenger SSK? if i didn't remember wrongly it was an RSN challenger crew in a Swedish navy sub that did thatOriginally posted by LazerLordz:Footnote : Our very own Challenger-class SSK surfaced within periscope distance of a USN Carrier too, and it's fire-control sonar had the carrier locked at firing range. -
Heard there were three incidents.Originally posted by sgFish:was it a challenger SSK? if i didn't remember wrongly it was an RSN challenger crew in a Swedish navy sub that did that
1st is the RSN's Challenger..
2nd and 3rd were Swedish sub, HMS Gotland which did so. -
They don't have to dig their heads in sand, but neither do they have to do something like that. What are they trying to prove? That their navy is so "sart" that its sub can evade detection? And even if that's the case, what's the point of this "show of power" or "show of skill"? Does one need to undertake such actions if one is truly peaceful?Originally posted by coolant:What should China do then is qualified to your “ never having an military ambitions” criteria? By dig your head into the sand when next time you see again the 2 CVBGs sailing at your doorstep like in 1996 or repeating the fate that Anglo- French army burning your palace in Beijing more than 100 years ago?
The big Sam is no saint at all, he can sentence one countryÂ’s leader to death for the murder of several dozens of ppl, but how about their own war, which launched to destruct WMD but instead of tens of thousand of innocent lives. no one in their circle is accounted for the innocent lives lost in their war, but they are legal to sentence other people to death under the same charge. Ironical not enough? just think the Rumsfeld is removed not because the war criminal charges but his party lost the election! -
Ei, when you build a machine, you have to make sure it is working. How do you make sure it is working? By testing it against a real target. Otherwise, how can you be certain that your machine will really work if a war really happens?Originally posted by sgf:They don't have to dig their heads in sand, but neither do they have to do something like that. What are they trying to prove? That their navy is so "sart" that its sub can evade detection? And even if that's the case, what's the point of this "show of power" or "show of skill"? Does one need to undertake such actions if one is truly peaceful?
A peaceful nation doesn't mean it should have no arms, okay? The peaceful Singapore is the most well-armed nation in South-East Asia. Why? Because you have to always be prepared for the worst scenario!
You don't have to look far to understand this.
If you are a chinese singaporean, take a minute to think why is it that you are born in Singapore? Yes, because your ancestors came to singapore. Why did your ancestor came to singapore in the first place? Because China was in a state of disorder, poor, no enough food back in the 19th century. That's why our ancestors had to so "cham" leave their family behind and venture a few thousand kilometers until they reach Singapore, just to find a job. Now, why was China so poor in the 19th century? Maybe you don't know, but China was leading the rest of the whole world (bar none) in culture and science and economy for the whole time, up until the 18th and 19th century. And then you know what happened? China shut it's door to the outside world because China thought they didn't need the outside world, China had everything. China stopped upgrading their army. And what happened? The western world came invading. Internal corruption weaken China, China stopped developing army, and the western world brought their ships and army and came to rob China. It took all the great powers of the western world (combined power of Britain, USA, Germany, France, Russia, Spain, etc) plus Japan, and China was defeated and had to sign many many unfair agreements to pay gold and silver to the invaders. The western powers flooded China with opium. Yes, the greatest drug dealers ever was the western countries. That's why China became so poor and our ancestors had to leave China to find a better living.
So, every country has to arm itself accordingly. You don't arm yourself, then tomorrow the "righteous" countries will find an excuse to come rob you.
Now think, which "righteous" country has waged/started the most wars in the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century. Ironically, this "righteous" country likes to label other countries as unpeaceful, evil, aggresive, etc. If you are China, are you not afraid to be the next target of this "righteous" country? The most ironic thing, is that many naive people in the world still think they can rely on the "righteous" to be fair and protect them. Wake up from your dreams! -
I did not say China should have no arms. I'm just saying they should not undertake any actions which are confrontational.Originally posted by zhaozhilong:Ei, when you build a machine, you have to make sure it is working. How do you make sure it is working? By testing it against a real target. Otherwise, how can you be certain that your machine will really work if a war really happens?
A peaceful nation doesn't mean it should have no arms, okay? The peaceful Singapore is the most well-armed nation in South-East Asia. Why? Because you have to always be prepared for the worst scenario!
You don't have to look far to understand this.
If you are a chinese singaporean, take a minute to think why is it that you are born in Singapore? Yes, because your ancestors came to singapore. Why did your ancestor came to singapore in the first place? Because China was in a state of disorder, poor, no enough food back in the 19th century. That's why our ancestors had to so "cham" leave their family behind and venture a few thousand kilometers until they reach Singapore, just to find a job. Now, why was China so poor in the 19th century? Maybe you don't know, but China was leading the rest of the whole world (bar none) in culture and science and economy for the whole time, up until the 18th and 19th century. And then you know what happened? China shut it's door to the outside world because China thought they didn't need the outside world, China had everything. China stopped upgrading their army. And what happened? The western world came invading. Internal corruption weaken China, China stopped developing army, and the western world brought their ships and army and came to rob China. It took all the great powers of the western world (combined power of Britain, USA, Germany, France, Russia, Spain, etc) plus Japan, and China was defeated and had to sign many many unfair agreements to pay gold and silver to the invaders. The western powers flooded China with opium. Yes, the greatest drug dealers ever was the western countries. That's why China became so poor and our ancestors had to leave China to find a better living.
So, every country has to arm itself accordingly. You don't arm yourself, then tomorrow the "righteous" countries will find an excuse to come rob you.
Now think, which "righteous" country has waged/started the most wars in the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century. Ironically, this "righteous" country likes to label other countries as unpeaceful, evil, aggresive, etc. If you are China, are you not afraid to be the next target of this "righteous" country? The most ironic thing, is that many naive people in the world still think they can rely on the "righteous" to be fair and protect them. Wake up from your dreams!
And there are other ways of testing whether your hardware works. When S'pore developed the Bionix, did we send it into M'sia to "test" how far into M'sia it could penetrate? Did we send our stealth frigates into M'sian waters to test whether the M'sians could detect it? Did we fly our Apaches into Indonesia to "test" how good they are at evading radar?
Testing of hardware is a lame excuse. There are other methods of testing including exercises and war games with friendly countries.
As for whether China is peaceful or not, I'll let you be the judge of that. Just a reminder that the PLA has said before on numerous occasions that they will NOT rule out taking Taiwan back by force. Some PLA commanders have even said that the minute Taiwan declares independance, they will attack.
China considers Taiwan part of it, yet they are willing to send a barrage of missiles into Taiwan, and in the process probably killing thousands of their own countrymen. Does that sound like the actions of a peace loving country? -
Much ado about nothing.
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The Washington Times said the submarine had stalked the USS Kitty Hawk and surfaced within range of its torpedoes and missiles in "ocean waters" near the Japanese island of Okinawa.
"The characterization of stalking an aircraft carrier is rather sensational and I think it's probably not close to being accurate," Fallon told reporters in Malaysia, where he is attending an annual meeting of Asia-Pacific defense chiefs.
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Zhaozhilong, nobody ever said China shouldn't have a right to arms. We are not even condemning China for the Submarine incident.
Stalking other vessels are part and parcel of Submarine operations. God only knows how many times US Navy Subs have sneaked in and out of Chinese ports, or shadowing PLAN warships. But do they surface and announce their presence? Do they publish it in the press?
Why? Because they don't want to make an international incident out of it that would compromise good relations with China. Stalk quietly, get whatever intelligence you want, get out. All goes well, everybody's happy.
Surfacing in the middle of a Carrier battle group in transit is a defiant and challenging posture. China would do well to reprimand that sub captain instead. -
And doing regular exercises and attempting encirclement in China's door step .. thousands of miles away from their home port isn't exactly a friendly manner as well.
Now.. about the incident
Why can't a Chinese Sub be able to trail a CBG ? The CBG themselves are protected by SSN.. Therefore, The CBG would be only as fast as the escorting SSN..
Of course, an SSN can dived speed faster than a Diesel.. but transiting anything faster than 5 to 10 knots would be noisy (due to air bubbling).. and Nuke subs are already noisy by design. Therefore would defeat the purpose of a silent escort and it's primary role.. if any sub in the vicinity can detect it.
I would say that the carrier (I assumed) would be only cruising 10 to 15 knots.. if they are expected to escorted and pretected by SSN moderately.. In effect Diesel subs can trail a CBG.
Just 2 cents -
I think they will give the sub captain a medal, if anything.Originally posted by Shotgun:Why? Because they don't want to make an international incident out of it that would compromise good relations with China. Stalk quietly, get whatever intelligence you want, get out. All goes well, everybody's happy.
Surfacing in the middle of a Carrier battle group in transit is a defiant and challenging posture. China would do well to reprimand that sub captain instead.
CBG are China's biggest concerns and their main effort is devising ways to defeat these CBGs in the event of war with the US over Taiwan. Their efforts include making missiles capable to sinking carriers among other things.
If the US feels its carrriers are vulnerable, they might be less pushy when it comes to dealing with China.
In the Falklands War, the Brits were so concerned about the Argentine Exocets that the Brit carriers never got too close to the fighting zone. Therefore, the Harrier's CAP time over the task force landing and supporting amphibious ops were limited by their need to return to the carrier when fuel ran low. And this left big gaps of time where these other ships had to depend on their own less than adequate air defense systems. This lack of overall air superiority resulted in the loss of several British ships.
The US frequently fly spy planes near the Chinese coast, to the exasperation of China. A few years ago, a Chinese pilot interdicting one of these spy planes lost control - apparently - and rammed his aircraft into the US spy planes. The Chinese pilot was killed but the US spy planes made a forced landing in China, whereupon the plane was gleefully taken apart by Chinese engineers.
So who's the one being aggressive? Coming half way around the world in a spy plane isn't a friendly act. But of course, the Chinese don't have a powerful, persuasive propaganda media like the US and everything China does is wrong and no one seems to mind when the US do bad things.
The Chinese has every right and obligation to stalk a US CBG in Japan - which is in the vicinity of China. It's their neighbourhood. THis is an act of self-preservation. It's not as if they are stalking US CBG near San Francisco. THAT, would be an act of aggression. -
I think the Americans Subs can stalk the entire China fleet undetected easily as well.
Anyway, China is far far away from America. The amount of money spent by USA on defence is a few times that of China easily. Think if the push comes to a shove they can win easily. Thats why we are not hurrying to ally with China that quickly.
Anyway, fighting war in Iraq, Viet and Afghan. The Americans must have gotten lots of combat experience compared to the Chinese. -
we shouldn't forget that the Chinese fought in Korea and some border skirmishes with Vietnam.Originally posted by jianfish9:I think the Americans Subs can stalk the entire China fleet undetected easily as well.
Anyway, China is far far away from America. The amount of money spent by USA on defence is a few times that of China easily. Think if the push comes to a shove they can win easily. Thats why we are not hurrying to ally with China that quickly.
Anyway, fighting war in Iraq, Viet and Afghan. The Americans must have gotten lots of combat experience compared to the Chinese.
precisely cos China is geographicall closer to us than US, that's why we need to strike a balance of power by allying wisely. -
I never at any point said that China could not stalk US Carriers. I think its fair game in International waters as long as no lives are endangered.Originally posted by moca:I think they will give the sub captain a medal, if anything.
CBG are China's biggest concerns and their main effort is devising ways to defeat these CBGs in the event of war with the US over Taiwan. Their efforts include making missiles capable to sinking carriers among other things.
If the US feels its carrriers are vulnerable, they might be less pushy when it comes to dealing with China.
In the Falklands War, the Brits were so concerned about the Argentine Exocets that the Brit carriers never got too close to the fighting zone. Therefore, the Harrier's CAP time over the task force landing and supporting amphibious ops were limited by their need to return to the carrier when fuel ran low. And this left big gaps of time where these other ships had to depend on their own less than adequate air defense systems. This lack of overall air superiority resulted in the loss of several British ships.
The US frequently fly spy planes near the Chinese coast, to the exasperation of China. A few years ago, a Chinese pilot interdicting one of these spy planes lost control - apparently - and rammed his aircraft into the US spy planes. The Chinese pilot was killed but the US spy planes made a forced landing in China, whereupon the plane was gleefully taken apart by Chinese engineers.
So who's the one being aggressive? Coming half way around the world in a spy plane isn't a friendly act. But of course, the Chinese don't have a powerful, persuasive propaganda media like the US and everything China does is wrong and no one seems to mind when the US do bad things.
The Chinese has every right and obligation to stalk a US CBG in Japan - which is in the vicinity of China. It's their neighbourhood. THis is an act of self-preservation. It's not as if they are stalking US CBG near San Francisco. THAT, would be an act of aggression.
The Soviet Union and US often stalked each others warships during the cold war. Even up to a point where they entered each others territorial waters. But are the details of all these incidents concretely known today? No. Because both sides have relatively cool headed leaders who down play these incidents.
The Chinese however, don't seem to understand the concept of "keep it quiet." What we now know, is a result of a Sub skipper who decided to surface his sub inside a carrier's defenses to make a point.
And how is that point taken? Its being interpreted to the American public as, "the Chinese are not interested in peace." Does that serve to create warmer bilateral ties? Does it take a step away from conflict? -
The US has probably done a lot more stalking but the main diff is they know how to keep their mouths shut to avoid any incidents. China however is only too keen to blab it out to the whole world.
I may spy on you but if no one knows about it, tough luck. But if you spy on me & then tell the whole world about it, that's an entirely different ball game.