US carrier unknowingly being shadowed by chinese sub...
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Hmm... read the bold-ed headlines that translates something like the topic in today's chinese wan bao.. i tink...
Anybody knows full story? -
China sub stalked U.S. fleet
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
November 13, 2006
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20061113-121539-3317r.htm
The USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier (AFP/Getty Images)
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A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times has learned.
The surprise encounter highlights China's continuing efforts to prepare for a future conflict with the U.S., despite Pentagon efforts to try to boost relations with Beijing's communist-ruled military.
The submarine encounter with the USS Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships also is an embarrassment to the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Adm. William J. Fallon, who is engaged in an ambitious military exchange program with China aimed at improving relations between the two nations' militaries.
Disclosure of the incident comes as Adm. Gary Roughead, commander of the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, is making his first visit to China. The four-star admiral was scheduled to meet senior Chinese military leaders during the weeklong visit, which began over the weekend.
According to the defense officials, the Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine shadowed the Kitty Hawk undetected and surfaced within five miles of the carrier Oct. 26.
The surfaced submarine was spotted by a routine surveillance flight by one of the carrier group's planes.
The Kitty Hawk battle group includes an attack submarine and anti-submarine helicopters that are charged with protecting the warships from submarine attack.
According to the officials, the submarine is equipped with Russian-made wake-homing torpedoes and anti-ship cruise missiles.
The Kitty Hawk and several other warships were deployed in ocean waters near Okinawa at the time, as part of a routine fall deployment program. The officials said Chinese submarines rarely have operated in deep water far from Chinese shores or shadowed U.S. vessels.
A Pacific Command spokesman declined to comment on the incident, saying details were classified. Pentagon spokesmen also declined to comment.
The incident is a setback for the aggressive U.S.-China military exchange program being promoted by Adm. Fallon, who has made several visits to China in recent months in an attempt to develop closer ties.
However, critics of the program in the Pentagon say China has not reciprocated and continues to deny U.S. military visitors access to key facilities, including a Beijing command center. -
In contrast, Chinese military visitors have been invited to military exercises and sensitive U.S. facilities. Additionally, military intelligence officials said Adm. Fallon has restricted U.S. intelligence-gathering activities against China, fearing that disclosure of the activities would upset relations with Beijing.
The restrictions are hindering efforts to know more about China's military buildup, the officials said. "This is a harbinger of a stronger Chinese reaction to America's military presence in East Asia," said Richard Fisher, a Chinese military specialist with the International Assessment and Strategy Center, who called the submarine incident alarming.
"Given the long range of new Chinese sub-launched anti-ship missiles and those purchased from Russia, this incident is very serious," he said. "It will likely happen again, only because Chinese submarine captains of 40 to 50 new modern submarines entering their navy will want to test their mettle against the 7th Fleet."
Pentagon intelligence officials say China's military buildup in recent years has produced large numbers of submarines and surface ships, seeking to control larger portions of international waters in Asia, a move U.S. officials fear could restrict the flow of oil from the Middle East to Asia in the future.
Between 2002 and last year, China built 14 new submarines, including new Song-class vessels and several other types, both diesel- and nuclear-powered.
Since 1996, when the United States dispatched two aircraft carrier battle groups to waters near Taiwan in a show of force, Beijing also has bought and built weapons designed specifically to attack U.S. aircraft carriers and other warships. "The Chinese have made it clear that they understand the importance of the submarine in any kind of offensive or defensive strategy to deal with a military conflict," an intelligence official said recently.
In late 2004, China dispatched a Han-class submarine to waters near Guam, Taiwan and Japan. Japan's military went on emergency alert after the submarine surfaced in Japanese waters.
Beijing apologized for the incursion. The Pentagon's latest annual report on Chinese military power stated that China is investing heavily in weapons designed "to interdict, at long ranges, aircraft carrier and expeditionary strike groups that might deploy to the western Pacific."
It could not be learned whether the U.S. government lodged a protest with China's government over the incident or otherwise raised the matter in official channels. -
china another soviet?
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Well, even Soviet never came that close in my memoryOriginally posted by Ito_^:china another soviet?
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what's wrong with a harmless game of hide-and-seek?
but again the yanks are paranoid as usual -
Rumor has it that the Soviets came "close." I'm not referring to the US fleets. One apparently surfaced near Keppel. An old rumor I heard... thats all.
The Song has done something, they shadowed and got into range to kill a US Fleet Carrier.... hUrrah. *Yawn* I'm not berating the Song class or anything. Its the best diesel Sub China has to offer. IIRC, they will be equipped with some of the best sonar systems available to China. French made Flank arrays, passive ranging sonars etc etc.
Very respectable in terms of quieting. Anechoic tiles, and AIP (not on all subs).
Being able to shadow the US Carrier with its escorts probably indicates they've rectified the design problems with their German diesel engines. If u see China suddenly stop buying anymore Kilos, u know they're putting their money on the Song. -
What's wrong? You have a stalker with a gun pointed at you following you around, and there's nothing wrong with that?Originally posted by boy in blues:what's wrong with a harmless game of hide-and-seek?
but again the yanks are paranoid as usual -
The chief of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Admiral William J. Fallon called for closer military ties with China and for the two powers to shed "Cold War" thinking on Tuesday as he highlighted a recent naval encounter that could have gone wrong.
The U.S. defense chief was asked to confirm a U.S. newspaper report of an uncomfortably close encounter between U.S. warships and a Chinese submarine in the Pacific last month.
Confirming the gist of the Washington Times report, Fallon said the submarine had been detected at close quarters by an aircraft carrier and its accompanying warships.
The Washington Times said the submarine had stalked the USS Kitty Hawk and surfaced within range of its torpedoes and missiles in "ocean waters" near the Japanese island of Okinawa.
"The characterization of stalking an aircraft carrier is rather sensational and I think it's probably not close to being accurate," Fallon told reporters in Malaysia, where he is attending an annual meeting of Asia-Pacific defense chiefs.
He did not give more details but said the encounter showed why he was pushing for better military ties with China.
"The fact that you have military units that would operate in close proximity to each other offers the potential for events that would not be what we would like to see -- the potential for miscalculation," he told a news conference.
"Now it turns out that the aircraft carrier and its escorting ships were out doing some exercises. I am told they were not engaged in anti-submarine exercises, so they were not looking for submarines. But if they had been, and this Chinese submarine happened to come in the middle of this, then this could well have escalated into something that was very unforeseen."
Fallon has been leading a push for closer ties with the Chinese military, amid regional fears about a defense build-up by Beijing. In August, U.S. ally Japan urged China to disclose more information on its military modernization to ease these concerns.
Fallon said China had declined his invitation to attend this week's closed-door meeting of Asia-Pacific defense chiefs, but that Beijing might attend future meetings.
"There is a need to have a fundamental understanding," he said, adding that Admiral Gary Roughead, head of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, was currently visiting China for the first naval exercise between the United States and the People's Liberation Army.
"This is the kind of thing that we must encourage and continue so we can move ahead from what I would characterize as kind of Cold War thinking and truly broaden the dialogue."
Fallon also highlighted North Korea's October 9 nuclear test, saying it posed a security threat, and he highlighted missile defense as an increasingly important aspect of regional defense.
"Missile defense is something that's important because these capabilities, these weapons are destabilizing in many respects and threatening to people," he said.
Admiral Fallon began his Naval Aviation service flying in the RA-5C Vigilante with a combat deployment to Vietnam, transitioning to the A-6 Intruder in 1974. He served in flying assignments with Attack Squadrons and Carrier Air Wings for twenty-four years, deploying to the Mediterranean Sea, Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans embarked in USS Saratoga, USS Ranger, USS Nimitz, USS Dwight D. Eisenhower and USS Theodore Roosevelt. He has logged more than 1,300 carrier arrested landings and 4,800 flight hours in tactical jet aircraft.
Admiral Fallon commanded Attack Squadron SIXTY FIVE embarked in USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, Medium Attack Wing ONE at NAS Oceana, Virginia, and Carrier Air Wing EIGHT in USS Theodore Roosevelt during a combat deployment to the Arabian Gulf for Operation Desert Storm in 1991. Assigned as Commander, Carrier Group EIGHT in 1995, he deployed to the Mediterranean as Commander, Theodore Roosevelt Battle Group and commanded Battle Force SIXTH Fleet (CTF 60) during NATOÂ’s combat Operation Deliberate Force in Bosnia. Admiral Fallon served as Commander, SECOND Fleet and Commander, Striking Fleet Atlantic from November 1997 to September 2000.
Shore duties included assignment as Aide and Flag Lieutenant to the Commander, Fleet Air Jacksonville, and to the staffs of Commander, Reconnaissance Attack Wing ONE; Commander, Operational Test Force, and Commander, Naval Air Force, U.S. Atlantic Fleet. He has served as Deputy Director for Operations, Joint Task Force, Southwest Asia in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and as Deputy Director, Aviation Plans and Requirements on the Staff of the Chief of Naval Operations in Washington, D.C. His first flag officer assignment was with NATO as Assistant Chief of Staff, Plans and Policy for Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic. He was then assigned as Deputy and Chief of Staff, U.S. Atlantic Fleet followed by assignment as Deputy Commander in Chief and Chief of Staff, U.S. Atlantic Command. Admiral Fallon served as the 31st Vice Chief of Naval Operations from October 2000 to August 2003. He was the Commander, U.S. Fleet Forces Command and U.S. Atlantic Fleet from October 2003 to February 2005.
Admiral Fallon is a graduate of the Naval War College, Newport, R.I., the National War College in Washington, D.C., and has a Master of Arts Degree in International Studies from Old Dominion University. His awards include the Defense Distinguished Service Medal, Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Superior Service Medal, Legion of Merit, Bronze Star, Meritorious Service Medal, Air Medal, Navy Commendation Medal, and various unit and campaign decorations. -
ooo.. its the kittyhawk... mmm...
i can imagine the CV getting whacked badly if this incident took place in a fight.
Someone in the sonar room hasn't been working the way he shld eh.. -
Not the sonar room bugger's fault lar. The whole surface group travelling, there is no way their passive sonars would have detected anything after being masked by so many ships.
If its anyone fault, its the 688i's. -
Chinese 039 had Kitty Hawk in her sightsNovember 13, 2006
Tell Murdoc that this isn't troubling:
A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected
The sub, a Type 039 Song-class diesel-electric boat, is one of the Chinese navy's newer models, designed and built in China. China also operates Russian-built Kilo-class diesel subs.
China's military build-up, and naval build-up in particular, should concern us. And within the naval build-up, the obvious strategy to heavily utilize submarines should be very troubling. The use of subs, especially ultra-quiet diesels, will threaten our carrier operations as this incident demonstrates.
Any sort of war in the Pacific region, whether an attack on North Korea or a defense of Taiwan or Japan, will rely very heavily upon our carrier air power. If the threat of submarine attack keeps our carriers from working where we want them to be working, we will have ceded initiative to the enemy.
There's More! [READ THE REST...]
posted by Murdoc at 4:57 PM ET | Comments (9) | Track -
what is meant by masking of ships on sonar ?
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yah, the SSN's skipper sure has to answerOriginally posted by Shotgun:Not the sonar room bugger's fault lar. The whole surface group travelling, there is no way their passive sonars would have detected anything after being masked by so many ships.
If its anyone fault, its the 688i's.
it's something like the signatures of the other ships in the CVBG blocked the signature of the Chinese SSK.Originally posted by molgax:what is meant by masking of ships on sonar ?
I read from some sources that the SSK was actually 5 miles from the CVBG, not 5 miles from Kitty Hawk, and judging by the size a CVBG spans, the Song-class could be as far as 100km away from Kitty Hawk itself. -
The Washington times said itÂ’s 5 miles from the carrier itself, not the group , check the original statement:Originally posted by chillycraps:...I read from some sources that the SSK was actually 5 miles from the CVBG, not 5 miles from Kitty Hawk, and judging by the size a CVBG spans, the Song-class could be as far as 100km away from Kitty Hawk itself... According to the defense officials, the Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine shadowed the Kitty Hawk undetected and surfaced within five miles of the carrier Oct. 26.
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China on one hand claiming they are not a military threat & supposedly never having an military ambitions & on the other hand doing something like that. Really makes you question their true intentions.
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Any simple reading of Sun Tzu will show you that even with supposedly friendly intentions by the Chinese, we have to be on our guard.Originally posted by sgf:China on one hand claiming they are not a military threat & supposedly never having an military ambitions & on the other hand doing something like that. Really makes you question their true intentions.
This is why I get all bemused when people attempt to place so much faith that the PRC will not be a threat to South East Asia one day. Things can happen..
America should hold its hand back in these exchanges for now..
Footnote : Our very own Challenger-class SSK surfaced within periscope distance of a USN Carrier too, and it's fire-control sonar had the carrier locked at firing range. -
What should China do then is qualified to your “ never having an military ambitions” criteria? By dig your head into the sand when next time you see again the 2 CVBGs sailing at your doorstep like in 1996 or repeating the fate that Anglo- French army burning your palace in Beijing more than 100 years ago?Originally posted by sgf:China on one hand claiming they are not a military threat & supposedly never having an military ambitions & on the other hand doing something like that. Really makes you question their true intentions.
The big Sam is no saint at all, he can sentence one countryÂ’s leader to death for the murder of several dozens of ppl, but how about their own war, which launched to destruct WMD but instead of tens of thousand of innocent lives. no one in their circle is accounted for the innocent lives lost in their war, but they are legal to sentence other people to death under the same charge. Ironical not enough? just think the Rumsfeld is removed not because the war criminal charges but his party lost the election! -
SÂ’pore by nature to be a small country has to choose side aligned to the gravity of big nations in the region. But chinaÂ’s rising is not anything you can control, sure 1 day, its gravity will be felt in this region as well. How to align accordingly is another art of Sun tzi as well. I think the SG government is playing the card by engaging Chinese in its maximum capacity in order to influence the way that China grows.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Any simple reading of Sun Tzu will show you that even with supposedly friendly intentions by the Chinese, we have to be on our guard.
This is why I get all bemused when people attempt to place so much faith that the PRC will not be a threat to South East Asia one day. Things can happen..
America should hold its hand back in these exchanges for now..
Footnote : Our very own Challenger-class SSK surfaced within periscope distance of a USN Carrier too, and it's fire-control sonar had the carrier locked at firing range. -
Originally posted by 38�Ž:
Rarely, or just in the past, the Chinese didn't offer the courtesy of surfacing to inform the yanks of their presence?
The USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier (AFP/Getty Images)
"The officials said Chinese submarines rarely have operated in deep water far from Chinese shores or shadowed U.S. vessels."[/b]
I. for one, am happy to see that the US has finally met its match in Asia. This lets tthem know that they can't cruise in here with impunity and start gun barrel diplomacy anymore. This will at least make them think twice about starting wars here with North Korea over this or that excuse.
The US is always ready to start wars but have no clue how to end them and leaves a place worst off than when they found them.
War in Korea will plunge the whole Asia into economic crisis and likely to spread beyond the peninsula. -
No doubt the war in Korea will plunge the region into economic crisis, the N.Koreans are very unpredictable and unstable in their policies. Also, heard over the radio today that Iran is openly adopting Al Qaeda into their country as a base for operations, it actually creates more trouble to the US and bring to the world greater volatility. Coz they have got immunity in Iran ain't it, and the international community can do nuts about it. But unless there's the capability to eliminate foreign heads of states quietly, then the presence of CVs and ICBM armed subs in any region will be less present won't it?Originally posted by moca:Rarely, or just in the past, the Chinese didn't offer the courtesy of surfacing to inform the yanks of their presence?
I. for one, am happy to see that the US has finally met its match in Asia. This lets tthem know that they can't cruise in here with impunity and start gun barrel diplomacy anymore. This will at least make them think twice about starting wars here with North Korea over this or that excuse.
The US is always ready to start wars but have no clue how to end them and leaves a place worst off than when they found them.
War in Korea will plunge the whole Asia into economic crisis and likely to spread beyond the peninsula. -
was that when both our SSK and the american CV were berthed at Changi?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Footnote : Our very own Challenger-class SSK surfaced within periscope distance of a USN Carrier too, and it's fire-control sonar had the carrier locked at firing range.
saw some interesting comments here.
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?p=48545 -
Another 911 coming. US is getting weaker after the cold war.
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First its Iran's drones..
now its China's Subs...
whats next ?
7th Fleet , A destroyer was apparently 'boarded' by Malaysian special forces member using sampans.It was later found out that they boarded the destroyer to borrow navigational charts.