LAWs
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Bionix II can probably survive hits up to 14.5 mm AP in frontal arc at < 300 m ranges.
RPGs and other LAWS with > 90 mm HEAT will probably knock it out from frontal arc at < 300 m range even with enhanced armor ( if its not ERA ).
I believe that only MBTs can survive LAWS from all aspects at ranges < 300m.
In close terrain, better for AI to dismount and use Bionix as support weapon from 600 m or greater. Use superior optics / accurate Bushmasters on Bionix to take out snipers, MGs, AT weapons, bunkers and for suppression ........... Rain smoke and create fires on / near enemy positions to foil their optics and mask AI approach. -
Really har? That mean BX can't tahan a attack by even things as crude as theRPG? The RPG u mean is the eariler variant or the later variants? If that is the case it is quite dangerous for our armoured formation as we all noe that the northern chappies have a huge zoo of LAWs from various countries
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600m? We are talking about direct fire weapons of a mere 25mm calibre, not artillery.Originally posted by glock:In close terrain, better for AI to dismount and use Bionix as support weapon from 600 m or greater.
From that distance, you can't spot the enemy properly even with optical enhancement, how to support? In flat open terrain maybe. But in urban or jungle conditions, definitely cannot have a straight line of sight over such long distance without obstruction. And your battlefield awareness will be zero and you could even end up shooting own guys.
If you go to Youtube and watch this video called something like BIGREDONEinfallujah or any similar urban combat in Iraq with armour, it'll give you an idea of how close in the fire support has to be. It has to be right next to the infantry.
In one instance, the Bradley was firing its 25mm into a second story house from the road just outside. Even then, you can see how the 25mm fire is quite inefffective. In other words, enemy inside may still survive unscathed.
With the SAF 40/50 turret might be more effective as you can pop several 40mm grenades into the suspect house through the windows. But still, you have to be quite close to the action. Though the 40mm AGL has a 300m range or more, for precision firing into windows you have to be quite close. (Of course, not so close that the grenade cannot arm itself.)
If it was a big tank gun, then you can fire from further as one round of HE can literally bring the walls down, allowing infantry to move in and mop up. This was how a lot of street fighting were done in WW2 also. -
Well it not easy 2 hit something moving at 70kmph with unguided wpn ok
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Originally posted by moca:
I think the enemy was not unscathed. 25mm HE rounds are not funny. The incendiary effect can neutralise bunkers or "garrissoned" infantry. Even if they have some form of cover, the 25mm HE would probably have pinned them down.
600m? We are talking about direct fire weapons of a mere 25mm calibre, not artillery.
From that distance, you can't spot the enemy properly even with optical enhancement, how to support? In flat open terrain maybe. But in urban or jungle conditions, definitely cannot have a straight line of sight over such long distance without obstruction. And your battlefield awareness will be zero and you could even end up shooting own guys.
If you go to Youtube and watch this video called something like BIGREDONEinfallujah or any similar urban combat in Iraq with armour, it'll give you an idea of how close in the fire support has to be. It has to be right next to the infantry.
[b]In one instance, the Bradley was firing its 25mm into a second story house from the road just outside. Even then, you can see how the 25mm fire is quite inefffective. In other words, enemy inside may still survive unscathed.
With the SAF 40/50 turret might be more effective as you can pop several 40mm grenades into the suspect house through the windows. But still, you have to be quite close to the action. Though the 40mm AGL has a 300m range or more, for precision firing into windows you have to be quite close. (Of course, not so close that the grenade cannot arm itself.)
If it was a big tank gun, then you can fire from further as one round of HE can literally bring the walls down, allowing infantry to move in and mop up. This was how a lot of street fighting were done in WW2 also.[/b] -
1. In Iraq, on the front lines, the US Army uses latest variants of Bradleys with ERA. These variants weigh 30 or more tons and are heavily protected and probably can take a frontal hit from a RPG ( but not the latest versions ).
A HEAT round can penetrate ( in theory ) RHA up to 8 times its warhead diameter. Take a 84 mm Carl Gustaf round and penetration is 670 mm of RHA . How thick is the Bionix armor ?
2. With sights of 8 to 10 times magnification, I believe you can see quite a lot from 600 m or more. Also, max effective range of 25 mm cannon is 1,600 to 2,500 m. So, 600 m is rather short range for a Bushmaster ; 100 m is point blank. Operationally and tactically, Bradleys do not usually operate at these short ranges.
3. For tough opposition in urban terrain, Israelis go in with Achzarits Nagmashots, Nagmashons, PUMAs and Nakpadons and accompanied by Merkava IIIs and IVs no less. -
well if u have enough of them........
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actually it is not so fantastic about LAW being disposable, since they will tell you to take a new one from the tonner of the combat train after each mission. Of course the 84 comes more flexible with its range of ammunitions, that's why US rangers and seals are still using 84 (but the lighter version than ours)
AMX-13 can be classifed as tank destroyer, heard that even 0.50 rounds can chew it up.
And if you read up on the backblast area of the armbrust LAW (safety distance 40m behind weapon, 0.8m for rear clearance), there aren't really confined space where you can shoot it except maybe an indoor sports hall. -
Our SM1 frontal armour and turret was rumoured to be upgraded.......Originally posted by chillycraps:AMX-13 can be classifed as tank destroyer, heard that even 0.50 rounds can chew it up.
And if you read up on the backblast area of the armbrust LAW (safety distance 40m behind weapon, 0.8m for rear clearance), there aren't really confined space where you can shoot it except maybe an indoor sports hall.
As for the backblast area of the Armbrust , safety distance 40m behind weapon is meant to be ensuring no friendllies are within that distance, not of firing confinement, 0.8m for rear clearance I think it is the actual firing confinement. -
how much can they upgrade it?Originally posted by gary1910:Our SM1 frontal armour and turret was rumoured to be upgraded.......
As for the backblast area of the Armbrust , safety distance 40m behind weapon is meant to be ensuring no friendllies are within that distance, not of firing confinement, 0.8m for rear clearance I think it is the actual firing confinement. -
Perhaps the only protection that the SM1 has is its speed and manuverability. It is definitely harder to hit something moving fast and manuverability compared to being just heavily armoured. As no matter how thick armour is, it can still be defeated, But speed wise, its all depending on the operator skill.Nonetheless...its time for a change of platform of the new SM1.Originally posted by beavan:how much can they upgrade it? -
they put the extra wheel in front to block bullet =POriginally posted by beavan:how much can they upgrade it?
when it comes to speed, I think Indonesia and Malaysia's scorpion is faster... -
That doesn't look like one of our SM1s.Originally posted by chillycraps:they put the extra wheel in front to block bullet =P
when it comes to speed, I think Indonesia and Malaysia's scorpion is faster...
Yeap, that was what an Armor WO told me. .50 cal AP rounds can easily penetrate the SM1 at the front. I would consider it a rather official source. I see lots of SM1s and BXs in my NSF days, and I have to admit, the BX looks like they can tahan .50 cal hits better than SM1s. -
This is definitely not one of our AMX-13 SM1s, the muzzle brake is clearly different and judging from the exposed sides, it should still be using the old petrol engine.Originally posted by chillycraps:they put the extra wheel in front to block bullet =P
when it comes to speed, I think Indonesia and Malaysia's scorpion is faster...
However, in the AMX-13 (before it is being upgraded to the SM1 standard), the extra road wheel is indeed placed there like in the picture.
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I agree, the 0.5 rounds can easily penetrate the SM1 in its present form.Originally posted by Shotgun:That doesn't look like one of our SM1s.
Yeap, that was what an Armor WO told me. .50 cal AP rounds can easily penetrate the SM1 at the front. I would consider it a rather official source. I see lots of SM1s and BXs in my NSF days, and I have to admit, the BX looks like they can tahan .50 cal hits better than SM1s. -
RPG-7 latest rds can penetrate at least 500mm of armour,tandem warhead ones 600mm behind ERA.....Many kind of new rds made for it.Originally posted by equlus84:Really har? That mean BX can't tahan a attack by even things as crude as theRPG? The RPG u mean is the eariler variant or the later variants? If that is the case it is quite dangerous for our armoured formation as we all noe that the northern chappies have a huge zoo of LAWs from various countries
British Army's Next-Generation Light Anti-Armour Weapon (NLAW)/MBT LAW
The missile can be deployed at targets at ranges min 20m n max 600m. The missile can also be launched immediately without tracking when unexpected target appears. Has a soft launch n can be fired from confined spaces such as from inside buildings, vehicle hatches, from all positions n angles up to ±45°. Top attack mode to engage tanks n armoured vehicles in order to strike least armoured area on vehicle's roof. Missile flies at about 1m above the line of sight. Missile's sensor initiates warhead above roof of target. Direct attack (DA) mode to engage light vehicles, buildings n bunkers. -
A few years back, one member of tanknet forum ( for those who dunno abt this forum, it has plenty of military experts which a lot of them are writers of many military books, engineers etc) claimed he was in SG during the trial of SM1 in the 80s.Originally posted by beavan:how much can they upgrade it?
He said that during that time , a local engineer told him that armour upgrade was done to the glacis and turret of SM1 to withstand 20mm cannon.
True or not , I can't confirm but it is logical.
During that time , MY started to field their Condor with 20mm cannon, so it is logical & in fact prudent for SAF to upgrade the SM1 to at least have some protection against it. -
Originally posted by papabear20046:
Seeing the pics of the new British LAW, I was thinking if it is possible if ST can design a tandem version of the MATADOR. Since we are alreasy learning from the Ukraine in terms of guided rocket technology, and that we did get inolved in the SPIKE projects, I believe we can make a short range missile some wad like the British.
RPG-7 latest rds can penetrate at least 500mm of armour,tandem warhead ones 600mm behind ERA.....Many kind of new rds made for it.
[b]British Army's Next-Generation Light Anti-Armour Weapon (NLAW)/MBT LAW
The missile can be deployed at targets at ranges min 20m n max 600m. The missile can also be launched immediately without tracking when unexpected target appears. Has a soft launch n can be fired from confined spaces such as from inside buildings, vehicle hatches, from all positions n angles up to ±45°. Top attack mode to engage tanks n armoured vehicles in order to strike least armoured area on vehicle's roof. Missile flies at about 1m above the line of sight. Missile's sensor initiates warhead above roof of target. Direct attack (DA) mode to engage light vehicles, buildings n bunkers.
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U see, the northern chappies seem to have a sudden rush and fascination for MBT. They already got 48 PT-91 and one of their generals expressed desires of getting a tank division. Even if they are buying at a slow pace, their dream might materialise. Thus it is better for Singapore to start a credible program to arm the battalions with better anti-tank capabilities.
We can also harness smart technologies like thos 120mm,155mm rounds from mortar or artillery that can attack the MBT top down. -
0.5cal. rounds can penetrate the AMX13's frontal armour? Oh my god...sure does loads to boost the tankee's confidence. Just curious, anybody here who'se AMX13 trained care to shed some light on this? Also curious, does the AMX13 have the ability to be fitter with ERA?Originally posted by tankee1981:I agree, the 0.5 rounds can easily penetrate the SM1 in its present form. -
Cannot provide specific details but ERA is unlikely.Originally posted by SpecOps87:0.5cal. rounds can penetrate the AMX13's frontal armour? Oh my god...sure does loads to boost the tankee's confidence. Just curious, anybody here who'se AMX13 trained care to shed some light on this? Also curious, does the AMX13 have the ability to be fitter with ERA? -
At least u know that the 0.5cal won't cause a catastrophic failure. =)