BrahMos cruise missile/ Indonesia
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I think this discussion is getting a bit silly...
The final point is: Its not easy to support missiles like BrahMos or Yakhont. Its not like some GPS/INS munition where u punch in the coordinate, fly to release point and let it go autonomous.
It needs radar guidance, mid-course updates etc etc. Capabilities which some of the countries around Singapore can't do. -
Originally posted by Shotgun:I think this discussion is getting a bit silly...
The final point is: Its not easy to support missiles like BrahMos or Yakhont. Its not like some GPS/INS munition where u punch in the coordinate, fly to release point and let it go autonomous.
It needs radar guidance, mid-course updates etc etc. Capabilities which some of the countries around Singapore can't do.It is now an open secret that for mid-course guidance the Indians are working hard at enhancing and refining the Inertial Navigation System (INS) with possible Israeli assistance that keeps track of the smallest change in velocity of the missile from its launch. In fact, if the warhead is nuclear tipped to cause wide-area destruction, the degree of accuracy delivered by INS is sufficient. Indians are believed to have obtained gyroscopes and other related items from European nations and are said to have successfully reverse-engineered them.
Maybe not
A Global Positioning System (GPS) has also been made to complement the navigational data computed by INS. GPS mode enjoy few decisive advantages over the alternative Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) system as TERCOM is somewhat less effective on say the flat deserts surfaces where the average height of terrain does not vary over long stretches for proper identification. However the US monopoly over NAVSTAR satellites means signals can be "degraded for other users" by United States at their will. India thus should involve itself with the rapidly expanding Russian GLONASS GPS project or other suitable alternatives in terms of scientific collaboration or financial resource sharing. -
maybe not what?
Not accurate? LoL. I dunno wad kinda of GPS/INS weapon those Indians are using... -
Your response resemble that of a ten year old trying to deflect hard questions. Obviously, you`ve are clutching at thin straws; desperately trying to justify your assertion that the Indons bought initially the Brahmos and now the Yakhont.
Since when. Read carefully
Let us look carfully at what you`ve written; I dont have to go all the way back to the first few posts; just the last one.
You remarked that;1) people will only be satisfied if they see missiles being paraded; 2)people say it`s speculative in spite of reports;3) Costs can stop people from buying western but not Russian equipment;4) Russian equipment are cheaper than US equipment;5)and lastly Brahmos must certainly cost lesser than the US equivalent.
Tell me if it is`nt clear where the thrust of the argument is.Indian papers have n did picked it up,when will the rest?
Good question... when? And the next question is why not the rest? Eevn Indonesia.Who did that?
Obviously, the reports you`ve quoted lack credibility and is suspect; having being unconfirmed in more reliable media; even Indonesia. Not too long ago, some Euro-spanish press reported that Singapore has decided to purchase the Eurofigher. What happened to that? It was picked up by some other spanish media but that`s it. Even then, media reports around the world expressed its doubts. In this case, the there has been zero confirmed reports of the purchase apart from the initial reports you`ve quoted and from the same country; incidentally having some issues with the Russians; being a recipient of a lot of Russian aid.Pure speculation......Some of SEA already have missiles of some kind.....N who says Indo want to compete with the rest? They just want to have their own missiles or ones they can call their "own"....
Well..duh..obviously, some countries, if not all in SEA, have `some kind of missiles of some kind.Â’ Do they have supersonice cruise missiles? Lol...And how is that link related to the argument? They have reached an agreement for joint research. They might not even have started.
http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=5454Go look up Jane's.....U read about this can that cannot never look at prices?
Oh, so you don`t know. How do you presume how much they cost then? Come on..how much they cost? You said the Indonesians can obviously afford or to that effect. Oh incidentally, they could`nt afford the Sukhois and the necessary war-mongering components. *chuckles*Go find a map n look closely......Refer to spec n distances.....Read up on missile guidances
I have and it`s incredulous where they can put the missles wherever you`re thinking about in peace-times. I have mentioned the rationale and so did a couple few in the preceding posts.Really?
Missiles that big, they shoot from under the tree? Really?Since when do we fly over Indo airspace? Any AF guys? If u say SAT intell from others/ground operatives...ok
Lol..does the E-2c hawk-eyes or any Singnit collating aircraft have to fly over the enemy`s airspace? And yes, SAT intelligence is one of them. And at the onset of conflict, what..they have to ask permission to fly over the offending country`s airspace ?Never said we will
- Good that you agree. The threat is over-stated.Yes we r.....But we don't have it yet, do we?....N the sys tests don't look too well. Seems to be only 50% hits(not even real world tested yet).....Unless u r talking about the other one or types.......
Firstly, we have the best air defence money can buy in the region as opposed to nearly none in Indonesia and minimal defences in Malaysia. If you are going to use the criteria of not being world tested; then the majority of the world equipment is not world tested. Why even buy them at all? Suffice it to say, they were put through vigorous real life testing. Secondly, we are already looking at purchases to upgrade them.It's a good start if we will stop some nearby threats first........N those ballistic missiles from half away around the world won't KO us as well if they r conv.....
And we have`nt done that? Look at my previous post.
You have also failed to provide answers for the following;
1)Any confirming reports apart from the Indian sources you`ve provided.
2) the cost of the Brahmos or Yakhont and why it is cheap for the Indonesians
3) How the Indonesians are going to use them; given the lack of proper delivery and guidance systems ?
Suffice it to say, your initial post about some great and dangerous purchase falls flat on its face. Your posts lack credibility. -
Maybe not
Lol..now that`s speculation. It`s easy to say it; I dont know. Best of all; no link even. -
This point is void or have`nt we already established that fact. The Indons do not posses such a capability.
IF the indonesians are buying the yakhont, would they bought it without the necessary mid course support? whether concurrently or three years down the line is irrelevant. but they would acquire mid course guidance eventually. otherwise they won't realise the yakhont's full potential.
and this mid course platform WOULD most probably be helicopters either based on a 'batam-LIKE' island or a frigate.
the TNI-AL's frigate can sail along its side of the international border with singapore.
batam was an EXAMPLE of how close the international border is.
sheeeshhh... i don't know why i'm responding to someone who obviously knew how to read but failed to see what he read. let alone teaching someone else the explicits and the implied in the arts of communication. -
assertion that the Indons bought initially the Brahmos and now the Yakhont.
Read carefullyYou remarked that;1) people will only be satisfied if they see missiles being paraded; 2)people say it`s speculative in spite of reports;
Those Ppl r you.....Cos even when shown this:http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=5454 ...You said:They have reached an agreement for joint research. They might not even have started.
then wat u want,ppl start must tell u 1st ah? Show good source u say not yet start,others u say:lack credibility and is suspect
If that's the case,u better start your own newspaper/site/forum,interview ppl yourself n don't read materials from others n postings here or anywhere else.......5)and lastly Brahmos must certainly cost lesser than the US equivalent.
Pure speculation...U r speculating......Since when US have an equivalent.....Show us the source......Who else have equivalent of Yakhont or Brahmos?Good question... when? And the next question is why not the rest? Eevn Indonesia.
Waiting for your paper to pick it up mah......If not, u will say:lack credibility and is suspect/doubt the authencity of this report/wild excursions into lala-land/the reports come with a nationalistic flavour/doused with nationlistic content
Not too long ago, some Euro-spanish press reported that Singapore has decided to purchase the Eurofigher. What happened to that? It was picked up by some other spanish media but that`s it.
U in singapore yet u go read other papers talking about singapore's purchase.....
Even then, media reports around the world expressed its doubts.
But they at least have an open mindinitial reports you`ve quoted and from the same country; incidentally having some issues with the Russians; being a recipient of a lot of Russian aid.
That could be the reason y russian sold Yakhont to Indo even when India(their partner in Brahmos) could have sold Brahmos(Yakhont improved) to themsome countries, if not all in SEA, have `some kind of missiles of some kind.Â’ Do they have supersonice cruise missiles?
Some have ballistic missiles n some have nukes, is that good enough?.....U don't KO from several supersonice cruise missiles hits..........Oh, so you don`t know. How do you presume how much they cost then?
So u do not know everything.....U make it sounds like u do....Dropping names like Jane's.....Picking at others' postings.....Say this say that but never said anything about how other systems might work....Just TALK. N i'm not saying that i know alot or everything,there r many things that i don't know too. That's y i'm here to see wats new.
Never mind we r all here to learn about things we never seen or heard or unsure of......Oh incidentally, they could`nt afford the Sukhois and the necessary war-mongering components.
How much did they pay for all the Sukhois?I have and it`s incredulous where they can put the missles wherever you`re thinking about in peace-times.
Distance Distance DistanceMissiles that big, they shoot from under the tree? Really?
Go find picsdoes the E-2c hawk-eyes or any Singnit collating aircraft have to fly over the enemy`s airspace?
No,your assumptions r they have signal flying around n if they don't or min? They do silent run? Then no hope?
If they fire 1st?Firstly, we have the best air defence money can buy in the region as opposed to nearly none in Indonesia and minimal defences in Malaysia.
Israeli good lesson...Don't be complacentSuffice it to say, they were put through vigorous real life testing.
Go read how its testedyour initial post about some great and dangerous purchase
N wat do i gain by that.....This is a equipment heads-up.....Be more open minded -
In an event of war, no matter with Indonesia or Malaysia, both or either, we would not allow any ship or aircraft to sail/fly so near to our borders. As we mentioned before, islands like Batam would no doubt be part of our war plans to secure mainland Singapore should Indonesia acquire such long range strike capabilities.Originally posted by ferryman2393:IF the indonesians are buying the yakhont, would they bought it without the necessary mid course support? whether concurrently or three years down the line is irrelevant. but they would acquire mid course guidance eventually. otherwise they won't realise the yakhont's full potential.
and this mid course platform WOULD most probably be helicopters either based on a 'batam-LIKE' island or a frigate.
the TNI-AL's frigate can sail along its side of the international border with singapore.
batam was an EXAMPLE of how close the international border is.
sheeeshhh... i don't know why i'm responding to someone who obviously knew how to read but failed to see what he read. let alone teaching someone else the explicits and the implied in the arts of communication.
As for Frigates, and other OTH platforms required for mid-course updates, they will have to contend with the RSN's submarines, and stealth frigates, while under the coverage of AEW surveillance and maritime striker aircraft.
I am not surprised that the Indons or Malaysians would suddenly review in to acquisition of such weapons considering how Hezbollah managed to inflict significant damage to Israel using UNGUIDED rockets and missiles.
However, we are a whole lot smaller than Israel, and in a way more firepower per unit area to handle such threat. By not allowing their missiles capability to update midcourse, we would be successfully eroding its accuracy and potential to deal extensive damage.
Still, to be able use such a weapon, you still need extensive information in order to use it effectively. You can't just point it down a direction 300km away, and tell it to fly 260km and activate its radar and hit something. Something must see it at the distance of 300km, and tell it precisely where to go in the first place. Kill the eye, and u won't have to worry about much.
Which is why I mentioned JDAM and other GPS/INS guided weapons. You don't need to have an "eye" to launch them accurate. The eye is in the sky. -
quote:Originally posted by papabear20046:Maybe not
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It is now an open secret that for mid-course guidance the Indians are working hard at enhancing and refining the Inertial Navigation System (INS) with possible Israeli assistance that keeps track of the smallest change in velocity of the missile from its launch. In fact, if the warhead is nuclear tipped to cause wide-area destruction, the degree of accuracy delivered by INS is sufficient. Indians are believed to have obtained gyroscopes and other related items from European nations and are said to have successfully reverse-engineered them.
A Global Positioning System (GPS) has also been made to complement the navigational data computed by INS. GPS mode enjoy few decisive advantages over the alternative Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) system as TERCOM is somewhat less effective on say the flat deserts surfaces where the average height of terrain does not vary over long stretches for proper identification. However the US monopoly over NAVSTAR satellites means signals can be "degraded for other users" by United States at their will. India thus should involve itself with the rapidly expanding Russian GLONASS GPS project or other suitable alternatives in terms of scientific collaboration or financial resource sharing.
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GLONASS? hmm, I thought this nav system is falling apart? Russia has not launched replacement satellites for a long long time. -
Sorry I can't contribute much to this, but this is what I found on wiki on the GLONASS.
Following a joint venture deal with the Indian Government, which will launch two GLONASS-M satellites on its GSLV rockets, it is proposed to have the system fully operational again by 2008 with 18 satellites, providing full coverage of Russia territory, and by 2010 with all 24 satellites. During the December 2005 summit between Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Russian President Vladimir Putin, it was agreed that India would share the development costs of the GLONASS-K series and launch them from India.
For some years, Russia has kept the GLONASS satellite orbits optimized for their operation in Chechnya, giving them significant coverage there, at the price of further degrading coverage in the rest of the world.
Current GLONASS availability in Russia, Northern Europe and Canada is 94%. Meaning that at least 4 satelites are visible 94% of time, which is not bad considering that system operates only 12 of 21 required satelites.
Sources from the Russian Federal Space Agency indicate the two remaining GLONASS-M satellites launched in December 2005 may be declared operational in July or August 2006.
Three more are scheduled for launch in December 2006. Six are scheduled for launch in 2007. Five are scheduled for launch in 2008. -
I am not surprised that the Indons or Malaysians would suddenly review in to acquisition of such weapons considering how Hezbollah managed to inflict significant damage to Israel using UNGUIDED rockets and missiles.
ATM was interested in MLRS way before the latest lebanon conflict. similarly with TNI-AD. the latter have some MBRL locally made but lack the range. seemed that some ATM's conventional new hardware were acquired after their stint in the balkans. things like artillery locating radars, bakhtar shikan, MLRS. nothing like a front row seat to see how the weapons performed... -
Still, to be able use such a weapon, you still need extensive information in order to use it effectively. You can't just point it down a direction 300km away, and tell it to fly 260km and activate its radar and hit something. Something must see it at the distance of 300km, and tell it precisely where to go in the first place.
somebody mentioned KA-31 earlier. i'm not sure but it seemed that KA-28 with Alba-F radar has a 250km range against LARGE surface vessels (i'm being a parrot here). POSSIBLY KA-31 can do better.
and the helicopter need not be using its radar at full reach. information of the target is provided by secured data link to the launch platform (which can be, say 200 km away?) as well as the missile itself during its mid course update.
if in doubt, just use some fixed wing aircraft, with the necessary surface-scan radar of course. i think there're many types out there. no need satellites. -
some read on Alba-F radar.Another Phazotron-NIIR's achievement in building heliborne radars is the Alba-F long-range radar. The system became a basis for upgrading the Kamov Ka-28 shipborne helicopter's fire control system for firing the Kh-35 missile. Its top-notch performance make the Alba-F able to be integrated into various rotary-wing aircraft, including those flying search and rescue (SAR) missions. The Alba-F radar is designed for surface surveillance of both the land and sea. Whatever the sea state, the all-weather day/night system performs the following tasks: - monitoring and guarding the national border within a circular coverage area whose scan radius totals 250 km; - detecting maritime surface ships including pinpoint ones (life boats, speedboats, etc.); - coastline mapping as well as generating quality image of the coastal terrain within the specified angular domain; - identifying friend or foe and tracking 10 targets and determining their precise position within the all-round coverage area; - determining the positions of thunder-heads, showers and other meteorological phenomena; - detecting dangerous turbulent zone within the atmosphere; - conducting search and rescue operation in adverse weather. The Alba-F coherent-pulse X-band radar is a multimode system featuring high resolution and pulse-to-pulse carrier frequency tuning. The radar boasts the 20-m accuracy in range by virtue of compound signals with large bandwidth duration products. The bearing accuracy makes up 20 angular minutes owing to the mono-pulse direction-finding technique. The Alba-F's different operating modes ensure acquisition of large vessels with a radar cross section (RCS) of 3,000 m� at a distance of 250 km in sea state 5; 550-m� RCS medium ships at a range of 50 km; and 1-m� RCS small craft at 30 km. To cap it all, the radar ensures coastal area mapping with 10-m resolution, while spotting thunder-heads, clouds and dangerous turbulent zones in the 'meteorological' operating mode.
as i said i'm being a parrot here. if it lied, i lied. -
Ka-31 cap
Ka-31 is fitted with the E-801M Oko (Eye) airborne electronic warfare radar which features a 6x1 meter planar array mounted beneath the fuselage. The radar is folded and stowed beneath the aircraft's fuselage before being lowered into a vertical position, to allow 360º mechanical scanning of the radar once every ten seconds. The radar can simultaneously track up to 20 airborne or surface threats, and can detect fighter-sized aircraft from a range of 110 - 115 km and surface ships at a horizon of 200 km from an altitude of 9840 feet. Some sources state that the radar allows detection of up to 200 targets at any one time and track targets 20 simultaneously, with detection range of aerial targets up to 80 nautical miles (150 km) and surface targets up to 135 nautical miles (250 km). Developed by the NIIRT (Nauchno-Issledovatelskiy Institut Radiotekhniki) Radio Scientific-Research Institute in Nizhny Novgorod, the radar antenna weighs 200 kg (441 lbs). The co-ordinates, speed and heading of a target gathered by the radar are transmitted via an encoded radio data-link channel to a ship-borne or shore-based command post.
Cost US $23.1mil (2001 $)
This encoded radio data-link channel will enable airborne network centric warfare,due to its advanced real-time capability. The secure data-link and onboard communication systems have a range of 150 km, at altitudes between 4950 and 11,000 feet. Ka-31s are also being fitted out with the Abris GPS featuring a 12-channel receiver. The GPS is designed & developed by Kronstadt - a firm in St. Petersburg, Russia. Abris will provide all satellite navigation data. Other Kronstadt systems featured in the Ka-31 helicopter will include navigational equipment for digital terrain maps, ground-proximity warning, obstacle approach warning, auto-navigation of pre-programmed routes, flight stabilization and auto homing onto and landing at the parent carrier/base and information concerning the helicopter's tactical situation.