BrahMos cruise missile/ Indonesia
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The Brahmos is not going to be able to sea-skim for 300km. As the original post state, its continuous sea-skimming will only allow it to hit 120km.
Its touted capabilities sounds almost too good to be true, seriously.
I'm concerned that this Brahmos can be used to attack our bases from very long distances. I think our ships are quite well covered. -
Indian source Indian papers.....Then wat u want to see? Indons signing for their missiles when delivered? Who said Indons fitting it to their Sukhoi? Saw wat happen when the Aussie say they think of buying long range strike weapons?
They sign for missiles when delivered? What are they? Global trotting salesmen who carry thier goods around? You`re funny. The papers there have showcased wrong reports based on speculation before. And all from the same continent. I doubt the authencity. All the more so with current issues the Indians are having with the Russians. Sales like this don`t go unnoticed around the world or unreported. I do not doubt thier interest in such systems though.
The Indonesian government has no qualms about showing proof what they have bought. In fact, they probably have less control over such matters; note the embarrasing disclosures with respect to the Suhkoi sales. It becomes more incredulous with the lack of proper delivery systems and the virtual lack of funds on the part of the Indonesian government.
You`d think the Indonesian government would care a hoot if the Aussies are to make noise? -
Also, to shoot from such long (touted 300km) distance, WHAT is going to do the initial targetting in the first place?
a suitably equipped helicopter can easily do the target acquisition and mid course guidance.
This missile is a threat... to merchant shipping that won't have any idea whats going to hit them.
brahmos (and yakhont) is designed to take out modern warships. not merchant shipping. -
Global trotting salesmen? Yes they r.....N will sell to whomever who show $$$$$$$ I think we r more concern if they r buying than when they r not........Note that Indo r buying from Russia not India who r their partner in this missile......News becomes news if they r pick up by the papers n only if there's no other "bigger" news....Cos if they don't report would outsiders know? Not many would.....Rem we r on the same side...Of cos we hope it's not true y would we think otherwiseOriginally posted by Arthas79:They sign for missiles when delivered? What are they? Global trotting salesmen who carry thier goods around? You`re funny. The papers there have showcased wrong reports based on speculation before. And all from the same continent. I doubt the authencity. All the more so with current issues the Indians are having with the Russians. Sales like this don`t go unnoticed around the world or unreported. I do not doubt thier interest in such systems though.
Wat i meant was when the Aussies said they r buying long range missiles see all the noise the others made.......Maybe Indo have learnt from that n also M r looking at BrahMos as well....So there's no noise from the usual sourcesOriginally posted by Arthas79:The Indonesian government has no qualms about showing proof what they have bought. In fact, they probably have less control over such matters; note the embarrasing disclosures with respect to the Suhkoi sales. It becomes more incredulous with the lack of proper delivery systems and the virtual lack of funds on the part of the Indonesian government. [/quote]
If other sys need lot of $$$ or more maintenance maybe they now rather have a off/def weapon that's cheaper n less maintenance....Poor man's option
[quote]Originally posted by Arthas79:
You`d think the Indonesian government would care a hoot if the Aussies are to make noise? -
I thought a while ago, PRC agreed to help Indonesia co-develop a new anti ship missile based on the c802?
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Yes u r right but no mid course guidance only target acquisition...Ka-31 can do itAlso, to shoot from such long (touted 300km) distance, WHAT is going to do the initial targetting in the first place?
This missile is a threat... to merchant shipping that won't have any idea whats going to hit them. [/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by ferryman2393:a suitably equipped helicopter can easily do the target acquisition and mid course guidance. -
Looking at the picture I saw, the unwieldy shape + 3000kg launch weight... I can't think of a suitably equipped chopper that can handle such a role.Originally posted by ferryman2393:a suitably equipped helicopter can easily do the target acquisition and mid course guidance.
brahmos (and yakhont) is designed to take out modern warships. not merchant shipping.
Consider this
AS 565 max payload weight, 1900kg
KA-28 max payload weight, 2000kg.
Perhaps the seahawk can carry ONE of these monstrosities.
Seriously, I doubt that Indonesia has the capabilities to support and use this weapon effectively. In fact, I think WE would be able to maximise the effectiveness of this weapon. Not the indons. -
I don't think its heli launched only target acquisition.....Ship launched after heli painted target(over the horizon)......If only we buy them Russian have other goodies as well....Wonder if we getting them nowOriginally posted by Shotgun:Looking at the picture I saw, the unwieldy shape + 3000kg launch weight... I can't think of a suitably equipped chopper that can handle such a role.
Consider this
AS 565 max payload weight, 1900kg
KA-28 max payload weight, 2000kg.
Perhaps the seahawk can carry ONE of these monstrosities.
Seriously, I doubt that Indonesia has the capabilities to support and use this weapon effectively. In fact, I think WE would be able to maximise the effectiveness of this weapon. Not the indons.
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Looking at the picture I saw, the unwieldy shape + 3000kg launch weight... I can't think of a suitably equipped chopper that can handle such a role.
brahmos can be launched from mobile land-based launchers.
the helicopter's OTH radar is only used to search, prioritize, allocate targets to the mobile launchers.
malaysia's super lynx can do mid course correction for its Exocet MM40. i'm sure a better missile such as brahmos have that support too. -
how far is batam from singapore? -
Global trotting salesmen? Yes they r.....N will sell to whomever who show $$$$$$$ I think we r more concern if they r buying than when they r not........Note that Indo r buying from Russia not India who r their partner in this missile......News becomes news if they r pick up by the papers n only if there's no other "bigger" news....Cos if they don't report would outsiders know? Not many would.....Rem we r on the same side...Of cos we hope it's not true y would we think otherwise
Running out of ideas now are we? And news such as these are highly speculative. Even the Indonesian press did not pick it up. If you are saying that a super-sonic cruise missile purchase is`nt big news here, then you`re holding on to thin air. Even reports on such `interestsÂ’ get carried in the press. This report remains speculative unless I see more credible sources such as Janes, etc. And that means you`re speculative. If you have`nt noticed, the reports come with a nationalistic flavour.If other sys need lot of $$$ or more maintenance maybe they now rather have a off/def weapon that's cheaper n less maintenance....Poor man's option
Mind telling us how much they cost? Poor man`s option indeed. The Indonesians are struggling to bring their systems back online – the current ones online. Look at their army, air-force and navy. Let alone buy a whole bunch of cruise missiles.Wat i meant was when the Aussies said they r buying long range missiles see all the noise the others made.......Maybe Indo have learnt from that n also M r looking at BrahMos as well....So there's no noise from the usual sources
Maybe this? maybe that? Pop goes the weasel. The Aussies did`nt blink an eye when they did that. Tell me who`s going to make noise at Indonesia if she decides to buy the brahmos? A country of 210 million people? Who in the right mind would do anything to Indonesia? As far as arms procurement are concerned, they`re on top with the rest up there in terms of ignoring other countries' concerns. -
brahmos can be launched from mobile land-based launchers.
What helicopters they have which can support such long distance ambitions? Systems need to be mated. My next question is what remaning helicopters they have to support such a role? If the answer is doubtful, they must certainly have purchased the Brahmos to fire at Jemaah Islamiah cadres on thier own soil. Is`nt that true now?
the helicopter's OTH radar is only used to search, prioritize, allocate targets to the mobile launchers.
malaysia's super lynx can do mid course correction for its Exocet MM40. i'm sure a better missile such as brahmos have that support too.
Virgin systems on board the Lynx would be unable to support the Brahmos. Can the Sukhois fire Amraams or guide Sparrows? Wow, this is becoming more expensive by the moment. -
how far is batam from singapore?
You do understand Ferryman that Batam`s economy is entirely dependant on Singapore. As a matter of fact, Batam`s prosperity is key to Indonesia`s progress and economy.
Rationally and usually, one would try to base one`s land attack projectiles from places which are quite far away and obscure. Not to mention the fact of being away from really important places. -
....... we are gonna get blown to pieces...
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The news report is about the sale of Yakhont missile to Indonesia. It's a Russian Missile.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Yakhont.html
Brahmos is an improved version of Yakhont and is a joint version between India and Russia.
http://www.brahmos.com
This is a model of the air-launched version of Brahmos which is under development.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_418.shtml -
What helicopters they have which can support such long distance ambitions? Systems need to be mated. My next question is what remaning helicopters they have to support such a role? If the answer is doubtful, they must certainly have purchased the Brahmos to fire at Jemaah Islamiah cadres on thier own soil. Is`nt that true now?
please chew forty times on my posts before you swallow.
Virgin systems on board the Lynx would be unable to support the Brahmos. Can the Sukhois fire Amraams or guide Sparrows? Wow, this is becoming more expensive by the moment
i remarked that a better missiles (compared to MM40) should have similar support with regards to helicopter assist. it is entirely likely that TNI has no capable helicopters (with the necessary radars, optronics and avionics) to support yakhont now. but purchase of the yakhont (or brahmos) without such support is entirely meaningless. true or false?
similarly, if we look at malaysia's super lynx, these helicopters were inducted about three years after the first MM40 entered service (if i'm not mistaken). for those three years, the MM40 were not operating at their optimum capability. now they are. similar scenario could be applied to the yakhont's that're supposedly bought by TNI.
and i didn't say the super lynx's are equipped to handle brahmos. mind you, MM40's maximum range is, what? 120km? brahmos (or yakhont for that matter) is 300km. nobody in their right mind would equip the lynx with radars etc that can reach 300km whereas the best missiles they have can only reach 120km and of a different make than what the radars etc etc are supposed to handle.
on the other hand, if brahmos are to be inducted by malaysia's RMAF for the su-30s, the planes' radars and etc etc should be able to handle brahmos without any assistance from any helicopters.
and no, RMAF's su-30 cannot handle AMRAAM or sparrows. even you knows that. -
You do understand Ferryman that Batam`s economy is entirely dependant on Singapore. As a matter of fact, Batam`s prosperity is key to Indonesia`s progress and economy.
in times of conflict, nobody gives a hoot about economic prosperity brought about by those which are party to that conflict.
Rationally and usually, one would try to base one`s land attack projectiles from places which are quite far away and obscure. Not to mention the fact of being away from really important places.
perhaps i didn't make myself clear.
batam was just an example of how close indonesia's border with singapore is. they have many other islands of such ability i.e. close to international borders (including malaysia, brunei, australia).
and they don't need to base their land-based launchers close to the borders. only their eyes and ears are enough (helicopters with OTH capability etc). even a frigate will do but frigates have lower endurance than an airbase. -
So who exactly is thinking of buying the brahmos?
The Indonesians? The Malaysians? The Australians? Or Aliens?
I've seen the potential buyer list change so many times that I am getting confused.
It wuld be foolish for the Indons to place their Brahmos launchers near batam, where they would be within easy reach of our air force. And its not as if they can protect batam effectively with 2 Su-30s w/o proper weapons systems.
You're right. If they have no qualms with using Batam as a launch point in war, we would have no qualms with leveling Batam with FAEs either. -
So who exactly is thinking of buying the brahmos?
well. i thought this thread started with the apparent confirmation of the indonesians buying some yakhont missiles even though the title said brahmos/indonesia. they're not buying the brahmos as far as i can figure it out.
The Indonesians? The Malaysians? The Australians? Or Aliens?
I've seen the potential buyer list change so many times that I am getting confused.
It wuld be foolish for the Indons to place their Brahmos launchers near batam, where they would be within easy reach of our air force. And its not as if they can protect batam effectively with 2 Su-30s w/o proper weapons systems.
You're right. If they have no qualms with using Batam as a launch point in war, we would have no qualms with leveling Batam with FAEs either.
malaysia's sukhois are also not meant to carry the brahmos. let alone the aussies, they won't be getting caught with their pants down caressing the brahmos or yakhont.
i think its safe to say that nobody is buying any brahmos in the near future.
one more thing. TNI won't actually deploy its yakhont on batam. singaporeans knew the island like the back of their hands. they might base some helicopters with OTH capability to handle the yakhont on batam-like island (location wise near internatinonal borders). the mobile land-based launchers could be based in sumatra or some other islands closer to sumatra. this is wishful thinking actually. -
Yakhont is similar to the brahmos. Confirmation of indonesians buying yakhont missiles or not seems for most ppl will only be when the buyer shows them off in a parade of some kind. Even when shown some reports ppl say speculative.....Ok....But no fire no smoke.....Rite? Ppl around us have said before that they will buy this that....It's not like they never cancelled orders before or cut down orders....Cost can stop them from buying Western equipments but Russian?Originally posted by ferryman2393:well. i thought this thread started with the apparent confirmation of the indonesians buying some yakhont missiles even though the title said brahmos/indonesia. they're not buying the brahmos as far as i can figure it out.
malaysia's sukhois are also not meant to carry the brahmos. let alone the aussies, they won't be getting caught with their pants down caressing the brahmos or yakhont.
i think its safe to say that nobody is buying any brahmos in the near future.
one more thing. TNI won't actually deploy its yakhont on batam. singaporeans knew the island like the back of their hands. they might base some helicopters with OTH capability to handle the yakhont on batam-like island (location wise near internatinonal borders). the mobile land-based launchers could be based in sumatra or some other islands closer to sumatra. this is wishful thinking actually.
US M1 tanks cost around US$5 mil T-72 around US$1 mil......So wat do u think? Tomahawk cost around less than US$1 mil so think about Yakhont/Brahmos.....So if u don't buy......example fighters how many Yakhont/Brahmos can u buy? 
If they can do it y not the Indo? Don't treat them like idiots......Pushing the launch button not hard it living with the consequences that is......N this can be the reason that cause the Indo to buy cruise missile of their own:brahmos can be launched from mobile land-based launchers.
the helicopter's OTH radar is only used to search, prioritize, allocate targets to the mobile launchers.malaysia's super lynx can do mid course correction for its Exocet MM40. i'm sure a better missile such as brahmos have that support too.
Lockheed Martin's AGM-158 JASSM cruise missile
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=5985
Indo good at handling cruise missile or not is one thing but just having it is a threat. Based where? Sumatra quite big rite? N close....Mobile land-based launchers each have 3 missiles,move up down Sumatra hide somewhere,launch all 3 at once at land at ships.....Get the idea....Wat can we do to it? Locating the launchers won't be easy.....N btw malaysia's sukhois n India's sukhois same make
So as i said before we r more concern that they r buying then not buying....If they don't buy good but if they r then we shld be planning ahead. I rather be kiasu n kiasi than to get complacent....Cos we KO once that's it......Better be prepared than to wait for Uncle Sam.."There's no forever friends n no forever enemy in this world" -
I doubt Indonesia will be buying the Yakhont or Brahmos missile why? Bcos Indonesia war ship belong to the NATO/European philosophy desing ones. which means the missiles are mounted 2 stack on 2, positioned perpendicular to the length of the vessel. While this Russian missile being so enormous in size will be like Russian warship mounting them parallel to the length of the ship. Judging from how large the missile is, unless their navy accquire warships bigger than an average frigate, I doubt the Indons will consider the Russian missiles at all. Besides, they recently accquired 3 sigma class corvettes from the Dutch, and their inventories being mostly European based, I doubt they are going to buy a Russian system that can't fit in the original system. Their economy is also not doing well, thus they won't want to jeopardize the welfare of their ppls and at the same time, incite an arms race.
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please chew forty times on my posts before you swallow.
The unfortunate fact is that when it comes to your posts(be it here or elsewhere), I(if not all) simply could`nt just swallow; now or historically.i remarked that a better missiles (compared to MM40) should have similar support with regards to helicopter assist. it is entirely likely that TNI has no capable helicopters (with the necessary radars, optronics and avionics) to support yakhont now. but purchase of the yakhont (or brahmos) without such support is entirely meaningless. true or false?
What true or false? If you have`nt got the implied and explicit meaning in my previous post, the logic is clear. Learn to read.similarly, if we look at malaysia's super lynx, these helicopters were inducted about three years after the first MM40 entered service (if i'm not mistaken). for those three years, the MM40 were not operating at their optimum capability. now they are. similar scenario could be applied to the yakhont's that're supposedly bought by TNI.
- I have my doubts whether or not the RMN is operating her weapons at any optimal level; even at all. As for the Yakhont, you don`t know that so how can you conclusively say that it is so. You`ve just drawn a parallel without deferring to the specifications of the missile; my point being so.and i didn't say the super lynx's are equipped to handle brahmos. mind you, MM40's maximum range is, what? 120km? brahmos (or yakhont for that matter) is 300km. nobody in their right mind would equip the lynx with radars etc that can reach 300km whereas the best missiles they have can only reach 120km and of a different make than what the radars etc etc are supposed to handle.
No you did`nt. Just to make a point about it. So, it is agreed, they can`t.on the other hand, if brahmos are to be inducted by malaysia's RMAF for the su-30s, the planes' radars and etc etc should be able to handle brahmos without any assistance from any helicopters.
I have no doubt the Sukhois can take on the Brahmos. But I doubt they will; by Malaysia. Not unless Singapore deploys Slammers or such similar weapons.
and no, RMAF's su-30 cannot handle AMRAAM or sparrows. even you knows that. -
in times of conflict, nobody gives a hoot about economic prosperity brought about by those which are party to that conflict.
That`s just silly. Conflicts do not happen out of the blue. And you don`t teleport military pieces in a second. Not unless you`re an island, you simply do not point your missiles or guns at your neighbours in peace times; especially when you depend on her for so much moral and economic support.
perhaps i didn't make myself clear.
batam was just an example of how close indonesia's border with singapore is. they have many other islands of such ability i.e. close to international borders (including malaysia, brunei, australia).
The repurcussions are dire.
It is just silly to place your critical weaponry so close to your enemy`s borders; whereever they might be. How do you even reckon to transport the missiles to Batam or any such islands as you`ve alluded at the onset of conflict? You`d think our planes and ships would`nt already have establised control over the area.
Im not sure. I think Batam(and a couple of other islands) is within artillery fire from Singapore; let alone aerial strikes against an entirely and relatively undefended island(from air-strikes). In fact, many more places are within reach of Singapore`s air-force, navy and surveillance.
You can`t place them at Batam in peace-times because we have so much leverage on the prosperity of that place; if not the whole Indonesian archipelago. We pull out even a fraction of our investments, the citizens there will suffer. Why do you think Batam`s chief of police cited political reasons as to banning public protests on the island during the IMF meeting in Singapore ? You`d think Singapore would approve of it? Indonesia has put a lot of stake in Batam. The majority of which is at Singapore`s behest.
This point is void or have`nt we already established that fact. The Indons do not posses such a capability.
and they don't need to base their land-based launchers close to the borders. only their eyes and ears are enough (helicopters with OTH capability etc). even a frigate will do but frigates have lower endurance than an airbase. -
Yakhont is similar to the brahmos. Confirmation of indonesians buying yakhont missiles or not seems for most ppl will only be when the buyer shows them off in a parade of some kind. Even when shown some reports ppl say speculative.....Ok....But no fire no smoke.....Rite? Ppl around us have said before that they will buy this that....It's not like they never cancelled orders before or cut down orders....Cost can stop them from buying Western equipments but Russian? US M1 tanks cost around US$5 mil T-72 around US$1 mil......So wat do u think? Tomahawk cost around less than US$1 mil so think about Yakhont/Brahmos.....So if u don't buy......example fighters how many Yakhont/Brahmos can u buy?
So what now? You`ve confirmed that the Indonesians are buying Yakhont? Lol. You jump from one speculation to the next like a headless chicken. They don`t have to showcase thier missiles in front of a parade. The point is that the purchase of such missiles would have already been reported in more reliable media such as thier own, Janes, etc. If the Indian papers picked it up, so will these. You`d think they`d miss out on such reports. Here, I am pointing a finger at the big hole in your argument; no matter how much spin you want to put into it.
You don`t get reports based on unsubstantiated sources and the rumour-mill and say it`s true. Also, it`s possible there`s confusion on the term `interest'. In some countries, `interest' means a buy. In some other funnier countries, `interest' means that you can just afford to dream about it.
Further, such reports become more incredulous given the current state of the Indonesian military and the abysmmal lack of funds.
They might have purchased them. But that`s simply unsubstantiated. They do know that buying such missiles would lead to domino-like purchases throughout SEA; in which case, they simply can`t compete.
And no, you`ve still have`nt given me figures of the cost of the Brahmos or in this case, Yakhont.
I do not discount the possibility of a real pruchase down the road.If they can do it y not the Indo? Don't treat them like idiots......Pushing the launch button not hard it living with the consequences that is......N this can be the reason that cause the Indo to buy cruise missile of their own:
Idiocy will certainly rule the day if they don`t even know if they`ve bought some cruise missiles; according to some foriegn reports. And incidently, doused with nationlistic content and from the same place too.
Lockheed Martin's AGM-158 JASSM cruise missile
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=5985Indo good at handling cruise missile or not is one thing but just having it is a threat. Based where? Sumatra quite big rite? N close....Mobile land-based launchers each have 3 missiles,move up down Sumatra hide somewhere,launch all 3 at once at land at ships.....Get the idea....Wat can we do to it? Locating the launchers won't be easy.....N btw malaysia's sukhois n India's sukhois same make
They put in Sumatra and fire at what? The sea? Refer to the specifications and the lack of proper platforms to guide the missiles. They can`t shoot missiles or rockets from under the foliage. And it would be a serious failure if we can`t pick up something that big; via either aerial surveillance or ground operatives.So as i said before we r more concern that they r buying then not buying....If they don't buy good but if they r then we shld be planning ahead. I rather be kiasu n kiasi than to get complacent....Cos we KO once that's it......Better be prepared than to wait for Uncle Sam.."There's no forever friends n no forever enemy in this world"
You don`t 'KO' from several cruise missiles hits; all the more so if you have protective military coverage. Also, what makes you think we are not preparing for such eventualities. For peet`s sake, we are trying to deflect ballistic missiles from half-away around the world. You have unwittingly insulted the forumners here. -
So what now? You`ve confirmed that the Indonesians are buying Yakhont? Lol.
Since when. Read carefullyThe point is that the purchase of such missiles would have already been reported in more reliable media such as thier own, Janes, etc. If the Indian papers picked it up, so will these.
Indian papers have n did picked it up,when will the rest?You don`t get reports based on unsubstantiated sources and the rumour-mill and say it`s true.
Who did that?They do know that buying such missiles would lead to domino-like purchases throughout SEA; in which case, they simply can`t compete.
Pure speculation......Some of SEA already have missiles of some kind.....N who says Indo want to compete with the rest? They just want to have their own missiles or ones they can call their "own"....
http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=5454And no, you`ve still have`nt given me figures of the cost of the Brahmos or in this case, Yakhont.
Go look up Jane's.....U read about this can that cannot never look at prices?They put in Sumatra and fire at what?The sea? Refer to the specifications and the lack of proper platforms to guide the missiles.
Go find a map n look closely......Refer to spec n distances.....Read up on missile guidancesThey can`t shoot missiles or rockets from under the foliage.
Really?And it would be a serious failure if we can`t pick up something that big; via either aerial surveillance or ground operatives.
Since when do we fly over Indo airspace? Any AF guys? If u say SAT intell from others/ground operatives...okYou don`t 'KO' from several cruise missiles hits;
Never said we willall the more so if you have protective military coverage. Also, what makes you think we are not preparing for such eventualities.
Yes we r.....But we don't have it yet, do we?....N the sys tests don't look too well. Seems to be only 50% hits(not even real world tested yet).....Unless u r talking about the other one or types.......For peet`s sake, we are trying to deflect ballistic missiles from half-away around the world.
It's a good start if we will stop some nearby threats first........N those ballistic missiles from half away around the world won't KO us as well if they r conv.....