1 Merkava per day, what a dosage !!!
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quote:
Errrrr.......Source is Andrew McGregor.....I tink u better read the article u quoted....AT-13 Metis-M same as Metis-M...Penetration somesay 950mm some 1000mm...Too many articles so its in between 900-1000mm...Tandem shaped charge warhead/Range 2000m. Wire-guided sys uses semi-auto command to Line of Sight (SACLOS) missile . Firing unit consisting of launcher, thermal sight and a single missile container weigh 29.80 kg. Its a sys similar to the European Milan...As for RPG-29 penetration about 600mm+,TOW 800mm, AT3(improved) also around 800mm, Kornet 1200mm, Milan 1000mm
Originally posted by papabear20046:
Don't tink any RPG or AT3 killed IDF Merkava......Read report saying Hezbollah got some ATGM like Russian AT-13 Metis-M(Tandem Shaped Charge Warhead/Pentration 1,000 or 900mm behind ERA) not fire n forget but wire guided.........So infantry is still key to tank n infantry op(its all small unit on small unit op not full conv war)........N Hezbollah also has developed improvised shaped charge that can defeat about 8-10 50mm steel plates(more than enough to take out some tracks or target the back of a tank in an ambush) n its light too about 4kg reduced from a 40kg model.......Wonder who they learn it from.....
Originally posted by coolant:
Then you have to read this( See below article),only AT3 Sagger or TOW as well as RPG29 confirmed, no other fancy things you mentioned discovered in the battle, or, could you provide some sources to validate what you mentioned AT13 sort of stuff?
quote:
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Hezbollah's Creative Tactical Use of Anti-Tank Weaponry
By Andrew McGregor
The Russian-made, Syrian-supplied Kornet missile.
As the world waits to see if the UN-brokered ceasefire in Lebanon holds, the Israeli army will begin assessing its disappointing performance against Hezbollah guerrillas. Among the many aspects to be investigated is the vulnerability of Israel's powerful armored corps to small, hand-held, wire-guided anti-tank weapons. Indeed, Hezbollah's innovative use of anti-tank missiles was the cause of most Israeli casualties and has given the small but powerful weapons a new importance in battlefield tactics.
In a recent statement, Hezbollah's armed wing, al-Moqawama al-Islamia (Islamic Resistance), described Israel's main battle-tank as "a toy for the rockets of the resistance" (al-Manar TV, August 11). Hezbollah's anti-tank weapons consist of a variety of wire-guided missiles (usually of Russian design and manufactured and/or supplied by Iran and Syria) and rocket-propelled grenade launchers (RPGs). The missiles include the European-made Milan, the Russian-designed Metis-M, Sagger AT-3, Spigot AT-4 and the Russian-made Kornet AT-14. The latter is a Syrian supplied missile capable of targeting low-flying helicopters. Iraqi Fedayeen irregulars used the Kornet against U.S. forces in 2003. The most portable versions of these weapons are carried in a fiberglass case with a launching rail attached to the lid. -
No CIWS is perfect, I don't think TROPHY can catch all the missiles, but I suspect it must have saved some of tanks.
From what I read online, many of the tanks were disabled when they were plinked from the roof where the armour was the weakest. Even if the tank was not seriously damaged the crew which was not sealed in was usually injured or killed and a tank isn't much use without the crew. And yes, the Isrealis were surprised by the density of ATGM fire, they haven't thought about that in their plans.
The ATGMs were even used in antipersonnel roles, where they were fired at Isreali troops in cover during a firefight. There were some losses to this rather creative tatic, and made them think more about what cover to take. -
Looks like this Merk took a hit from the 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock position. The rocky terrain would make it a tough climb.
Some possibilities:
1) It was disabled due to mechanical problems and destroyed by the IDF to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.
2) It took a hit from the right rear quarter which caused sympathetic detonation of stored ammo and the turret was blown off.
One thing's for sure. It didn't have the active protection system. -
No matter how gd your tanks are, in urban area its sitting ducks
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Just curious, where did you find that picture?Originally posted by ChineseJunk:
Looks like this Merk took a hit from the 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock position. The rocky terrain would make it a tough climb.
Some possibilities:
1) It was disabled due to mechanical problems and destroyed by the IDF to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.
2) It took a hit from the right rear quarter which caused sympathetic detonation of stored ammo and the turret was blown off.
One thing's for sure. It didn't have the active protection system.
Cheers,
Sunho -
Depends... with proper Infantry support, tanks can add a ton of punch to an urban operation. Esp. if the explosives it can mail into enemy positions is a lot bigger then 40mm grenades.Originally posted by spartan6:No matter how gd your tanks are, in urban area its sitting ducks
The Americans used their AFVs a lot in urban combat with infantry, with great effect as well. It's hard to get a bead on a tank with an RPG when you will get gunned down by an infantry squad, and it's hard to fight infantry when you have a tank lobbing HE and beehives as you.
And on that Merk pic, I don't think Merks are in the habit of brewing up. These are not Soviet tanks by the way and their ammunition stowage was built to prevent this kind of event by venting the blast out of the tank safely should it be set off. Unless the crew were sway enough to leave the blast doors open when the ammo was hit... which is not that likely but I don't know.
It seems more like it was destroyed by their own forces after it was deemed unrecovable.
It's either that or the militants have some really heavy hitting ATGMs... like in the weight class of being platform carried missiles. -
Note all Israeli casualties is from the building collapsing on them.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:The ATGMs were even used in antipersonnel roles, where they were fired at Isreali troops in cover during a firefight. There were some losses to this rather creative tatic, and made them think more about what cover to take.
Now if they were shot at using the Matador, fatalities will be from the direct blast effect of the warhead.
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2004/sep/04sep04_nr/04sep04_fs.html -
Well, if you don't know your enemy you won't know victory.
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Combine arms , i agree tanks without infantry is like Mechs without power armour support
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According to Jerusalem Post quoting Brig.-Gen. Halutsi Rudoy in charge of Armored Corps, 40 were hit and only 20 were actually penetrated out of 400 tanks committed.
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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1154525881698&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Aug. 15, 2006 23:11
Tank hits not as bad as it seemed
By YAAKOV KATZ
With 40 damaged tanks and 30 tank crew members killed in fighting in Lebanon, the Armored Corps began Monday to gear up for its next battle - this coming October when it tries convincing high-school graduates to enlist in its ranks.
Thousands of antitank missiles were fired over the days of fighting at tanks and infantry forces in southern Lebanon. But while soldiers told stories of deadly missile attacks on tanks, OC Armored Corps Brig.-Gen. Halutsi Rudoy revealed Tuesday that out of the almost 400 tanks that operated in Lebanon, only a few dozen were hit by antitank missiles and only 20 were actually penetrated.
"The fighting was fierce and they fired hundreds and possibly thousands of missiles," he told The Jerusalem Post in his first interview since a cease-fire went into effect. "But if I compare the number of casualties in this war to the first Lebanon War in 1982 and the Yom Kippur War in 1973; then there were thousands killed in tanks and here only 30."
Rudoy said the antitank missiles soldiers confronted in Lebanon were some of the most advanced in the world. He said Hizbullah had thousands of Soviet-built Sagger, Cornet and Fagot antitank missiles, the French MILAN and the US-built TOW, all supplied by Iran and Syria. These missiles are usually fired by a two- or three-man team, the IDF has said.
But the missiles are not only used against tanks, despite their official title. Aware that in close-range combat the IDF has an advantage, Hizbullah fighters set up positions kilometers away from Israeli forces and also used antitank missiles against infantry forces. More than 70 infantry soldiers were killed in antitank missile attacks on the homes they had commandeered in Lebanese villages and as they moved throughout the hilly terrain.
Rudoy said it was possible new recruits might be scared to enlist in the Armored Corps, but he believed that when they were told the real numbers and how tanks were responsible for killing dozens of Hizbullah fighters they would come and serve.
"We were at war, and in war the soldiers and the tanks at the front are the ones that get hit the most," Rudoy said. "It could have been worse, and thanks to the high professional level of the tank crews, the damage was far less than what was expected in the beginning."
Referring to the Trophy, a Rafael-developed active protection system that creates a hemispheric protected zone around armored vehicles such as the Merkava 4 tank, Rudoy said he would demand that his tanks be fitted with the defense system once it was deemed operational.
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Cheers,
Sunho -
Still, to have 20-30 Merkavas destroyed in a month is a pretty eye-catching statistic.
This goes to show that you can't just send armour for urban warfare - you need a mix of infantry and armour. The infantry acts as a screening force to take out the enemy ATGMs, while the tanks help to shield the infantry from GPMGs. -
the isrealis should have FAE the village and towns before even sending their boys in there..Originally posted by fudgester:Still, to have 20-30 Merkavas destroyed in a month is a pretty eye-catching statistic.
This goes to show that you can't just send armour for urban warfare - you need a mix of infantry and armour. The infantry acts as a screening force to take out the enemy ATGMs, while the tanks help to shield the infantry from GPMGs.
if the isrealis dont understand what is the true meaning of war.. i am sure their hizbollah cousins will show them up close... how stupid they have become. -
I don't think the problem was that the tanks could not stand up to enemy fire, by any account they did a rather good job of it given the sheer volume of stuff shot at them.
The real problem is that they are taking more fire then they ought to have taken had they changed their tatics or went in with more awareness. After all this is war and while a Merk may be tough, it is far from being unhurtable. THe danger is that people start to think of it that way and expect them to be able to hold out to all kinds of fire without really thinking of how to best avoid getting hit altogether, reduce the amount of effect fire the enemy can return, and use the strength of armoured units to best effect.
Crawling across open ground or being blinded in urban areas with little support is hardly a way to do it. It was a wonder not more tanks were lost. -
Tanks thrive in open solid terrain. In such terrain, even the ATGM crews are vulnerable to detection and quick prosecution. And the ATGM team definitely has less protection than the tank does.
If there is air superiority, and artillery support, tanks are usually quite safe in open terrain.
Again, i think this confrontation shows how a coordinate guerilla force is capable of attriting a modern and well equipped conventional fighting force. -
I forgot to add some details... in that case the Merks were crawling across open terrain that was flanked by high ground and covered locations. Esp. when they were trying to take this difficult village... at least that was what I read.
But yes, vast open space is tank country. -
Hmm, I don't think so. Illegal to FAE civilian dwellings.Originally posted by tripwire:the isrealis should have FAE the village and towns before even sending their boys in there..
if the isrealis dont understand what is the true meaning of war.. i am sure their hizbollah cousins will show them up close... how stupid they have become. -
Nothing is absolute. Even open country is no longer tank country for sure.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur: I forgot to add some details... in that case the Merks were crawling across open terrain that was flanked by high ground and covered locations. Esp. when they were trying to take this difficult village... at least that was what I read.
But yes, vast open space is tank country.
Yom Kippur, 1973.
Israeli tanks charging across open desert - seemingly empty.
Suddenly well-dug in and concealed infantry pop out of the sand and fired dozens of RPGs and Saggers at the approaching tanks. Many destroyed or damaged. The battleground is criss-crossed with layers upon layers of wire left behind by the wire-guided Sagger. Many IDF tanks burning.
And those posted pics of Merkavas burning are all in open terrain.
So in short, bad time to be a tankee. -
yeah... Oh, 1973, i always wondered what happened to their reccn screen. =/
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I thought this photo might interest tank enthusiasts out there. The Merkava took a hit on its turret from an unspecified round. Look at how the turret skin is made up of several laminated layers of "stuff", for want of a better description.
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Thank you very much! I will be keepin this photo for future ref. =D
It looks to me whatever hit it, took a deflection from the slope armor as well. -
Regarding the IDF troops; they called up many reservist troops to fight in the conflict,but the fact is that the reservists are not as good as the reservists of the past.While the regulars and active troops have maintained their standards, the population has changed with most reservists working in office jobs, factory jobs and other white-collar,gray-collar and blue-collar work.Originally posted by moca:IDF troops are still great fighters. But there seems to be a death of creative thinking when it comes to strategy these days. Very unlike the spectacular successes of earlier conventional wars even when Israel was outgunned, out-numbered and even out-manuevered.
As I have posted above, what's happening now in Lebanon 2006 seems to be a repeat of 1982, twenty over years ago: Armoured columns goes into town, get whacked by enemy infantry.
High tech is great but when ground war happens, high tech will often be the first thing to go out the proverbial window. Computers crash even in my comfortable aircon office while I am trying to send a leisurely email. In a battlefield? Good luck.
In the past, they worked outdoors under harsher envrironmental conditions and were probably in a better mental and physical state, often working as outdoorsmen or in farms.
This is much like how our reservists do not possess as comparable a physical condition as our active troops,though they are without a doubt better motivated and possess better mental endurance than our current generation of NSFs. -
looks like spaced ceramic on the topOriginally posted by ChineseJunk:I thought this photo might interest tank enthusiasts out there. The Merkava took a hit on its turret from an unspecified round. Look at how the turret skin is made up of several laminated layers of "stuff", for want of a better description.
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quite sad to see the my personal favorite tank being thrashed ,defeated ... is the cheif commander some scholar like our army?... IDF lost bacause of poor doctrine and tactics this round not because of inferior equipment I think
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a fact: tanks are NOT invulnerable ....
so we can take this as a lesson that cuts both ways .....
our ABGs are NOT invulnerable .....
however ... the tanks that our friendly neighbours have aren't either .....
