1 Merkava per day, what a dosage !!!
-
Originally posted by tripwire:
See for example David Eshel, "Chariots of the Desert: The Story of the Israeli Armoured Corps", Brassey's Defence Publishers 1989, pp. 90-93.
remember how they beat the egyptians during the 1973 war? an entire isreali division, wearing egyptian uniform, operating egytian equipment and move about like they own egypt.
This account was in September 1969 and was called Operation Raviv, led by Colonel "Pinko" Harel. -
How do you then prevent blue on blue scenarios?Originally posted by tripwire:the MERKAVA needs a TUSK upgrade, if they are intended to be use in FIBUA.
and seriously.... someone needs to tell the isrealis.. its stupid to wear military uniform inside an enemy town...
their army camo would not camo them in a hostile city... it makes them stand out as targets.
they should wear hizbollah uniform (civies), put on some islamic worded headscarf and learn to speak arabic with a lebanese accent.
and carry AK-47 and RPGs.
remember how they beat the egyptians during the 1973 war? an entire isreali division, wearing egyptian uniform, operating egytian equipment and move about like they own egypt. -
how tankees many have died for 1 captured tankee? hmmmm
1 lost is a tragedy. I guess thats how they're dealing with it. Try to get more killed so it becomes a statistic. -
1st, u have to consider the Iraqi war is much large in scale than the Israel Vs Hez show, thereÂ’re 300K US troops took part in Vs IsraelÂ’s 30K, and even so, the absolute US casualties number is not as high as that of Israel, If u put this figure in a relative rating, even much lower. And you also have to take into account many of those died US soldiers are caused by friendly fire. When is ankees suffering the most? During the occupation time, not in the battle.Originally posted by moca:The Iraqis did not really want to put up a frontal fight. The First Gulf War - when Iraq was much stronger - already showed what a folly it would be to fight the US head on.
You must also remember that the Second Gulf War was started by US on false pretences with little provocation from Saddam's Iraq. Hence, there was also a corresponding lack of preparation and will to fight conventionally on the side of the Iraqis.
What is happening now is actually what Saddam had in mind. Let the US come in - you can't stop them anyway - and then bleed them slowly.
And are you sure the US is suffering less casualty than the Israelis in Lebanon?
2nd, Iraqi army was better equipped, not lack of AT3 saggers or powerful RPGs, not mention they are regulars, yet they achieve far mor less than the guerillas. There were far less M1 tanks being destroyed in the battle even though much more M1A1/A2 took part in the battles than the Merkavas.
Some serious flaw of IDF tactics worth to explore IMO. -
methinks the terrain played a big part, iraq was relatively flat compared to lebanon, that country is hilly and pretty wooded in some parts (the lebaonese flag even has a ceder tree on it .... ) ... as the soviet found out the hard way in afghanistan ... tanks and hilly terrain are not a good combi ... cos you're presenting lots of opportunities for ambush on some of the weakest spots of any tanks, the turret top and the back ..... and I guess that's what's happening .... the merkavas are being ambushed with anti-tank missiles and advanced RPGs from high ground at short ranges, if the Israelis were fighting on the eastern deserts, against a conventional army (plus less civilians caught in the mix), I think the outcome would have been quite different, cos Israel's full combat power could be bought to bear ...Originally posted by coolant:1st, u have to consider the Iraqi war is much large in scale than the Israel Vs Hez show, thereÂ’re 300K US troops took part in Vs IsraelÂ’s 30K, and even so, the absolute US casualties number is not as high as that of Israel, If u put this figure in a relative rating, even much lower. And you also have to take into account many of those died US soldiers are caused by friendly fire. When is ankees suffering the most? During the occupation time, not in the battle.
2nd, Iraqi army was better equipped, not lack of AT3 saggers or powerful RPGs, not mention they are regulars, yet they achieve far mor less than the guerillas. There were far less M1 tanks being destroyed in the battle even though much more M1A1/A2 took part in the battles than the Merkavas.
Some serious flaw of IDF tactics worth to explore IMO. -
LOL. What u saying is in war, anything goes. Let's play dirty by dressing up as civil or enemies's uniform and even as another gender !Originally posted by tripwire:they should wear hizbollah uniform (civies), put on some islamic worded headscarf and learn to speak arabic with a lebanese accent. and carry AK-47 and RPGs.
Nazi germans did it, Americans GI did it, Vietcon did it. There were even reports of Hizbollah fighters dressed as IDF reservist.
Hell with Geneva convention !
As what Sun Zu said, bland with the surroundings. -
Anybody got evidence that the newer ATGMs are doing their good work?
Me thinks is the usual, lead them into a valley full of landmines trick. That is what is Hamas is doing. Build a mother of all land mine. Run a command wire and wait for the tank to roll up.
Wearing civvies will:
1. Exclude them from Geneva Conventions
2. Depreciate whatever moral standing they have left.
3. Blue on Blue.
4. Allow a suicide bomber to get through. -
Wearing military urban camouflage is alrite. But wearing civies is a strict no-no. As I mentioned b4, it ENDANGERS the civilians around you. Actual civilians get shot when combatants in Civies hide around and shoot? What kinda immoral, gutless jellyfish of soldier is that? Oh yeah.... Hezbollah..
-
Michael Puttre wrote an interesting article which I believe is applicable to current conflict:
War is all about patterns. Once you have identified the enemy's patterns, and understand their cause and effect, you own him. This is why intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) activities are so vital. They provide the key to understanding the enemy's patterns. This is how you apply strength against relative weakness, rather than pitting strength against strength.
Duke of Wellington famously reported after the Battle of Waterloo: "They came on in the same old way, and we shot them down in the same old way."
An interesting article from Washington Post on how Hezbollah fought the war. they are very high tech as well.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/13/AR2006081300719.html -
Don't tink any RPG or AT3 killed IDF Merkava......Read report saying Hezbollah got some ATGM like Russian AT-13 Metis-M(Tandem Shaped Charge Warhead/Pentration 1,000 or 900mm behind ERA) not fire n forget but wire guided.........So infantry is still key to tank n infantry op(its all small unit on small unit op not full conv war)........N Hezbollah also has developed improvised shaped charge that can defeat about 8-10 50mm steel plates(more than enough to take out some tracks or target the back of a tank in an ambush) n its light too about 4kg reduced from a 40kg model.......Wonder who they learn it from.....
-
OK ok... I admit. It was me... I taught them dat....Originally posted by papabear20046:Don't tink any RPG or AT3 killed IDF Merkava......Read report saying Hezbollah got some ATGM like Russian AT-13 Metis-M(Tandem Shaped Charge Warhead/Pentration 1,000 or 900mm behind ERA) not fire n forget but wire guided.........So infantry is still key to tank n infantry op(its all small unit on small unit op not full conv war)........N Hezbollah also has developed improvised shaped charge that can defeat about 8-10 50mm steel plates(more than enough to take out some tracks or target the back of a tank in an ambush) n its light too about 4kg reduced from a 40kg model.......Wonder who they learn it from..... 
-
oh.. yeah... Iraqi insurgent.. Taliban...Vietcon... French Resistance fighter ... etc.Originally posted by Shotgun:Wearing military urban camouflage is alrite. But wearing civies is a strict no-no. As I mentioned b4, it ENDANGERS the civilians around you. Actual civilians get shot when combatants in Civies hide around and shoot? What kinda immoral, gutless jellyfish of soldier is that? Oh yeah.... Hezbollah.. -
The following from Janes
14 August 2006
1.Hizbullah's intelligence apparatus
The militant Lebanese group Hizbullah has an excellent intelligence capability. Various intelligence sources have told Jane's that the group which sparked a major crisis when it captured two Israeli soldiers on 12 July is deeply committed to developing its intelligence, as it believes that accurate information is an essential prerequisite for both military and political success.
Domestic intelligence
Hizbullah probably has the most effective intelligence apparatus in Lebanon. A Western intelligence official based in Beirut who asked not to be named told Jane's: "Hizbullah intelligence is strongly active in Lebanon and has infiltrated all the Lebanese factions and groups... if these factions decided to challenge them [Hizbullah], it would be a very difficult job." A senior commander with Jordan's General Intelligence Department confirmed the official's claims and added that Hizbullah's intelligence on the various Lebanese factions was better than Israel's.
The group has a 'preventative intelligence' department tasked with enforcing organisational security. This includes ensuring that members rarely use communications technology that can be monitored by Israel. It is rumoured that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah has not used a telephone since he became the group's leader in 1992. Operational units are also said to have been restructured in recent years to increase the compartmentalisation of the organisation and minimise the risk of infiltration.
213 of 1,464 words
© 2006 Jane's Information Group
2.Israel shoots down Hizbullah UAV
09 August 2006
[b]By Alon Ben-David JDW Correspondent
Israeli-Lebanese Border
The Israel Air Force (IAF) intercepted an Iranian-made Ababil unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) launched by the Islamic Resistance - the armed wing of the Lebanese Shi'ite Party of God (Hizbullah) - off the northern Israeli coastline on 7 August.
"The UAV was flying south, towards central Israel," Brigadier General Yohanan Locker, IAF Head of Air Operations, told Jane's.
"I can't say for sure whether it was armed with explosives, but I believe it wasn't."
The Ababil has a maximum operational radius of 150 km, a maximum ceiling of 14,000 ft (4,268 m), the ability to travel at a maximum speed of 300 km/h and is capable of carrying a 45 kg payload. It has a surveillance configuration, carrying a camera and digital communications equipment, but also an attack configuration, carrying a high-explosive warhead that would be delivered by the UAV crashing onto a target.
144 of 359 words
© 2006 Jane's Information Group
3.Iran answers Hizbullah call for SAM systems
7 August 2006
By Robin Hughes JDW Deputy Editor
London Additional reporting by Alon Ben-David JDW Staff Reporter
Israeli-Lebanese border
Iran is to supply the Islamic Resistance - the armed wing of the Lebanese Shi'ite Party of God (Hizbullah) - with a quantity of surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems over the coming months, Western diplomatic sources have confirmed to Jane's.
According to the sources, Tehran will supply Hizbullah with Russian-produced SAMs, including the Strela-2/2M (SA-7 'Grail'), Strela-3 (SA-14 'Gremlin') and Igla-1E (SA-16 'Gimlet') man-portable SAM systems.
Iran is also understood to have agreed to deliver its own version of the Chinese QW-1 man-portable low- to very-low-altitude SAM system - the Mithaq-1- developed by the Iranian Defence Ministry's Shahid Kazemi Industrial Complex in Tehran.
Iran launched a mass production line for an advanced variant, the Mithaq-2 - believed to be a short-range passive infra-red SAM - on 6 February. Both variants, believed to be based on Chinese technology, are understood to have been made available for Hizbullah.
However, Jane's understands that Hizbullah already has Iranian-supplied Strela 2s in its inventory
Israel Air Force sources say that their platforms, most notably helicopters, have encountered Strela-2 fire throughout the current conflict. Senior Israel Defence Force sources told Jane's that they believe that Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps personnel, in support of Hizbullah, were involved in these launches.
195 of 953 words -
And what do we have as a result of that? Some (possibly) innoncent men in abu ghraib, being stripped naked by female specialists who enjoys kink. Vietnamese villages that were torched, burnt, and tortured by Americans as they were accused of harboring, supporting vietcong, some accused of being vietcong. And finally, german gestapo arresting french citizens accused of being resistance fighters.Originally posted by MobyDog:oh.. yeah... Iraqi insurgent.. Taliban...Vietcon... French Resistance fighter ... etc.
So at the end of the day, what do we have? Definition of Civilians and combatants blurred, resulting in unnecessary civilian suffering in times of war. -
And the aggressor blaming the insurgents or the innocent victims.. How else do you suggest they fight against a well armed and everwhelming army ??Originally posted by Shotgun:And what do we have as a result of that? Some (possibly) innoncent men in abu ghraib, being stripped naked by female specialists who enjoys kink. Vietnamese villages that were torched, burnt, and tortured by Americans as they were accused of harboring, supporting vietcong, some accused of being vietcong. And finally, german gestapo arresting french citizens accused of being resistance fighters.
So at the end of the day, what do we have? Definition of Civilians and combatants blurred, resulting in unnecessary civilian suffering in times of war.
That's war I suppose.. It's sucks living under occupation and get sandwiched in between.. -
I found this from another forum.... accuracy to their own perspective..
Here is the final casualties count given by IRINN according to Hezbollah and lebanese officials:
IDF casualties :
120 soldiers and ranked KIA and more than 500 WIA
IDF equipement destroyed or heavily damaged by Hezbollah:
120 Merkava series tanks
30 armored vehicles (APC, armored engineering vehicles...)
1 Saeer 5 ship
1 Saeer 4.5 ship
1 Patrol boat
3 Apache helicopters
1 F16 fighter
1 MK drone
Lebanese loses :
1135 civilian killed, more than 3000 wounded, and around 500 000 homeless
61 Hezbollah fighters
35 Lebanese troops (army and police force)
IDF claimed to have destroyed 1600 pieces of Hezbollah equipement, including different types of rocket laubchers (single tube, multitube, and truck mounted) and ATGM sites.
Around 4000 rocket were fired on Israel's territory during the 33 days of fighting. Hezbollah claimed to have 12000 rockets of different type in his arm caches by the beginning of the hostilities.
The exact count of israeli civilian casualties was not given (around 100 dead).
The Israeli Ministry of Economy estimated the war damages around 6 billions US $. -
There are many differences with the American and Israeli armour battles, for one thing the Isrealis fought a more static, slower moving and hampered form of combat that gave their opponents time to scatter and regroup and hence gather enough chances to plink at them. This is not to mention they never managed to cut off the supply of weapons on their opponents side.
I don't think this was because the Isrealis were incompetent (despite what we might like to believe), but because they were heavily hampered by an ineffective policy and rescrictions on fighting to begin with.
In 2003 however, the Americans effectively overwhelmed the Iraqis with highly mobile warfare. The Iraqis didn't have much chance to put up much of an anti-armour defence in the war. Many of the Iraqis anti-tankers who tried to get off a shot at the Americans were hunted down and killed in short order and they usually didn't get a chance to fight another day. In fact it was only after the pace of combat did slow down and the war shift from battle to occupation did the Americans start to lose more tanks to attacks.
The Israelis certainly didn't do much of that in here. Armour is most effective and dangerous when it is fighting a mobile battle, pounding the enemy with extreme firepower from the most protected frontal arc while advancing to overrun them with armoured infantry.
Armour starts to suffer when the battle is static or advances at a snails pace, which what what happened here. Worse the Israelis were fighting exactly the kind of limited war that hampered their style and negated a lot of their firepower advantage.
I don't think they were ineffective against their targets- if anything I suspected they did a lot of damage that simply could not be verified as the reporting for the other side is a lot more lax and 'flexible'. Not to mention it's hard to tell if a person that died was a civillian or combatant when the person that shoots back is impossible to tell from the innocents.
I wonder, if the Israelis had attacked with more speed and far more conviction, with less heed to civillian losses... the whole result might be different. -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
How else r u going to fight a well armed IDF.....In the open? They won't last a week.......MRLs getting bombed before they even launches...Its only by hiding among CV that they manage to last this long.......
Wearing military urban camouflage is alrite. But wearing civies is a strict no-no. As I mentioned b4, it ENDANGERS the civilians around you. Actual civilians get shot when combatants in Civies hide around and shoot? What kinda immoral, gutless jellyfish of soldier is that? Oh yeah.... Hezbollah.. -
Then you have to read this( See below article),only AT3 Sagger or TOW as well as RPG29 confirmed, no other fancy things you mentioned discovered in the battle, or, could you provide some sources to validate what you mentioned AT13 sort of stuff?Originally posted by papabear20046:Don't tink any RPG or AT3 killed IDF Merkava......Read report saying Hezbollah got some ATGM like Russian AT-13 Metis-M(Tandem Shaped Charge Warhead/Pentration 1,000 or 900mm behind ERA) not fire n forget but wire guided.........So infantry is still key to tank n infantry op(its all small unit on small unit op not full conv war)........N Hezbollah also has developed improvised shaped charge that can defeat about 8-10 50mm steel plates(more than enough to take out some tracks or target the back of a tank in an ambush) n its light too about 4kg reduced from a 40kg model.......Wonder who they learn it from..... Hezbollah's Creative Tactical Use of Anti-Tank Weaponry
By Andrew McGregor
The Russian-made, Syrian-supplied Kornet missile.
As the world waits to see if the UN-brokered ceasefire in Lebanon holds, the Israeli army will begin assessing its disappointing performance against Hezbollah guerrillas. Among the many aspects to be investigated is the vulnerability of Israel's powerful armored corps to small, hand-held, wire-guided anti-tank weapons. Indeed, Hezbollah's innovative use of anti-tank missiles was the cause of most Israeli casualties and has given the small but powerful weapons a new importance in battlefield tactics.
In a recent statement, Hezbollah's armed wing, al-Moqawama al-Islamia (Islamic Resistance), described Israel's main battle-tank as "a toy for the rockets of the resistance" (al-Manar TV, August 11). Hezbollah's anti-tank weapons consist of a variety of wire-guided missiles (usually of Russian design and manufactured and/or supplied by Iran and Syria) and rocket-propelled grenade launchers (RPGs). The missiles include the European-made Milan, the Russian-designed Metis-M, Sagger AT-3, Spigot AT-4 and the Russian-made Kornet AT-14. The latter is a Syrian supplied missile capable of targeting low-flying helicopters. Iraqi Fedayeen irregulars used the Kornet against U.S. forces in 2003. The most portable versions of these weapons are carried in a fiberglass case with a launching rail attached to the lid.
On July 30, the Israeli army published photos of various anti-tank missiles they claim to have found in a Hezbollah bunker (see: http://www.hnn.co.il/index.php?modul...sk=view;id=967). The weapons include Saggers and TOW missiles. The TOW (Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wire-guided) missile is a formidable weapon first produced by the United States in the 1970s. These missiles were of interest as their packing crates were marked 2001, suggesting that these were relatively new additions to Hezbollah's arsenal and not part of the shipment of TOW missiles from Israel to Iran that was part of the Iran-Contra scandal of 1986 (the shelf-life of the TOW is roughly 20 years). On August 6, Israeli Major-General Benny Gantz showed film of BGM-71 TOW and Sagger AT-3 missiles he reported were captured at one of Hezbollah's field headquarters (Haaretz, August 6).
The primary target of Hezbollah's battlefield missiles is the Israeli-made Merkava tank. The Merkava was designed for the maximum protection of its crews, with heavy armor and a rear escape hatch. The emphasis on crew survival is not simply a humanitarian gesture; the small country of Israel cannot provide an endless number of trained, combat-ready tank crews if casualties begin to mount. The tank is also designed to be easily and quickly repaired, a specialty of the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). The modular armor plating can be easily replaced if damaged, or replaced entirely with upgraded materials when available. The first generation of Merkavas was built in the 1970s and was soon deployed in Lebanon in 1982. The much-improved Merkava Mk 4 has been Israel's main battle-tank since its introduction in 2004.
Current battlefield reports suggest that Hezbollah fighters are well-trained in aiming at the Merkava's most vulnerable points, resulting in as many as one-quarter of their missiles successfully piercing the armor (Yediot Aharonot, August 10). Hezbollah attacks on Merkava tanks during the November 2005 raid on the border town of Ghajar were videotaped and closely examined to find points where the armor was susceptible to missile attack. While some of their missiles have impressive ranges (up to three kilometers), the guerrillas prefer to fire from close range to maximize their chances of hitting weak points on the Merkava. Operating in two- or three-man teams, the insurgents typically try to gain the high ground in the hilly terrain before selecting targets, using well-concealed missile stockpiles that allow them to operate behind Israeli lines (Jerusalem Post, August 3).
Without artillery, Hezbollah has adapted its use of anti-tank missiles for mobile fire support against Israeli troops taking cover in buildings. There are numerous reports of such use, the most devastating being on August 9, when an anti-tank missile collapsed an entire building, claiming the lives of nine Israeli reservists (Y-net, August 10). Four soldiers from Israel's Egoz (an elite reconnaissance unit) were killed in a Bint Jbail house when it was struck by a Sagger missile (Haaretz, August 6). TOW missiles were used effectively in 2000 against IDF outposts in south Lebanon before the Israeli withdrawal. There are also recent instances of anti-tank weapons being used against Israeli infantry in the field, a costly means of warfare but one that meets two important Hezbollah criteria: the creation of Israeli casualties and the preservation of highly-outnumbered Hezbollah guerrillas who can fire the weapons from a relatively safe distance.
It was suggested that the IDF helicopter brought down by Hezbollah fire on August 12 was hit by an anti-tank missile. Hezbollah claimed to have used a new missile called the Wa'ad (Promise), although the organization occasionally renames existing missiles (Jerusalem Post, August 12). At least one of Israel's ubiquitous armored bulldozers has also fallen prey to Hezbollah's missiles.
The Syrian-made RPG-29 was previously used with some success against Israeli tanks in Gaza. Hezbollah also uses this weapon, with a dual-warhead that allows it to penetrate armor. On August 6, the Israeli press reported that IDF intelligence sources claimed that an improved Russian-made version of the RPG-29 was being sold to Syria before transfer to the Islamic Resistance (Haaretz, August 6). In response, Russia's Foreign Ministry denied any involvement in supplying anti-tank weapons to Hezbollah (RIA Novosti, August 10). The IDF reports that anti-tank missiles and rockets continue to cross the border into Lebanon from Syria, despite the destruction of roads and bridges in the area (Haaretz, August 13).
The Merkava tank has assumed an important role as a symbol of Israeli military might. Their destruction in combat has an important symbolic value for Hezbollah. Hezbollah's tactical innovations and reliance on anti-tank missiles over more traditional infantry weapons will undoubtedly prompt serious introspection on the part of the IDF in anticipation of renewed conflict along the border. -
-
What was going on the picture in the link below? Is it Trophy Active Protection System in action?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2307810,00.html
Cheers,
Sunho -
simple... everyone wear a standard colour headband, use challenge password , hand signs or even same headscarve.Originally posted by Joe Black:How do you then prevent blue on blue scenarios?
just tie down lah... it should be fine -
Looks like it is popping smoke, or white phosphorus grenades. I've seen footage of JGSDF tanks popping WP during a firepower demo. Quite impressive when they coordinate the firing of the pyrotechnics... like the Sing fireworks festival.Originally posted by datafuser:What was going on the picture in the link below? Is it Trophy Active Protection System in action?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2307810,00.html
Cheers,
Sunho -
civilians should have no place in a combat zone... they should have been advised to leave or forcibly evicted through force of arms if neccessary to protect their lives and family.Originally posted by Shotgun:Wearing military urban camouflage is alrite. But wearing civies is a strict no-no. As I mentioned b4, it ENDANGERS the civilians around you. Actual civilians get shot when combatants in Civies hide around and shoot? What kinda immoral, gutless jellyfish of soldier is that? Oh yeah.... Hezbollah..
civilians who resist with arms are deemed combatants.. and last i heard.. you can shoot them. -
Very interesting pic. I can't say the Trophy was there since where the sensors would have been mounted seems deliberately photoshopped and smudged away. Save the picture and open it with any imaging software, even windows viewer. Zoom in and u will know what i mean but it was smudged.Originally posted by datafuser:What was going on the picture in the link below? Is it Trophy Active Protection System in action?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2307810,00.html
Cheers,
Sunho
It is possible that they have fitted some tanks with TROPHY in secret. If the results were less than satisfying, they probably won't want others to know that.
The shower of sparks there looks like what the TROPHY would have done to an incoming missile, causing the missile to explode far away from the tank.
IMO, highly likely that it was the TROPHY. But cannot confirm since the image has been edited at locations the "bulge" sensors would have been.