Finally India is listening....
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NEW DELHI: The Arjun main-battle tank may not be combat-ready even after 32 years of development work, but this has not deterred Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) from offering another "experimental" tank to the Army.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1869061.cms
Though this "new" tank, christened "Tank-Ex", has been flaunted by DRDO for the last four-five years, it now apparently feels confident enough to offer it to the Army. "Two Tank-Exs will be given to the Army soon for user-evaluation," say sources.
The Army, on its part, is of course sceptical, having endured the never-ending saga of Arjun, on which DRDO has spent well over Rs 350 crore in development costs alone.
But DRDO contends that Tank-Ex, which has only undergone "limited technical trials" till now, combines the "strengths" of Arjun and Russian-origin T-72 tanks.
Tank-Ex has been developed by integrating the modified low-silhouette chassis of the in-service T-72 tanks and the re-engineered turret of Arjun, with its weapon systems like the 120mm rifled gun.
Capable of attaining a maximum speed of 60 kmph, Tank-Ex weighs just about 47 tonnes, much less than Arjun at 58.5 tonnes and almost equal to the newly-inducted Russian T-90S main-battle tank at 46.5 tonnes.
That may well be true but induction of tanks and their subsequent upgradation projects have always been a source of worry for the Army, which urgently needs to upgrade the "speed and shock effect" of its mechanised forces.
Finally they admit Arjun is a JUNK, A JUNK... They shall have long follow the PLA approach on tank development ,get a proven chasis and work on the turret to tailor yr own need! That is the correct on infant tank development. Once you are more experience than you proceed to a more radical apporach!
Finally someone in India is using its brain rather than pride!
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Lets hope that they will suceed this time. Its not often that Asian countries can come out with a brand new MBT so it will be great to see one if it works.
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What's wrong with the Arjun?Originally posted by zenden9:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1869061.cms
Finally they admit Arjun is a JUNK, A JUNK... They shall have long follow the PLA approach on tank development ,get a proven chasis and work on the turret to tailor yr own need! That is the correct on infant tank development. Once you are more experience than you proceed to a more radical apporach!
Finally someone in India is using its brain rather than pride!
Anyone?
And for that matter, and reliable source to say that the Chinese tanks are /good/great/perfect?
I do know that the Nepalese are saying that the INSAS rifles supplied by India are crap. But apart from them no other sources. If this is true, then India must be the first ones to copy the AK-47 and fail.
Of course, one Indonesian who's dad is an army officer also said that Chinese-made AK-47 were hopeless. Again, cannot be verified. -
Overweight,low reliability,not able to fit into India rail system....So far less than a dozen has induct into India army after a 35yrs of development!!!Originally posted by moca:What's wrong with the Arjun?
Anyone?
.
You can easily search for such sources of my comment in the internet!
Nobody says it is perfect but its development is successful and fits PLA army need. They are plenty of photo to prove Type 98/99 enter in large service with serial numbers and scale...Originally posted by moca:And for that matter, and reliable source to say that the Chinese tanks are /good/great/perfect?
I don know Indonesia Army r using Chinese AK-47??? So in what position r he to comment? Btw, Type 81 which is a upgrade of AK-47 is export world wide and receive plenty of appraise.So i don know what bul*sh*t yr Friends dad r talking abt???Originally posted by moca:I do know that the Nepalese are saying that the INSAS rifles supplied by India are crap. But apart from them no other sources. If this is true, then India must be the first ones to copy the AK-47 and fail.
Of course, one Indonesian who's dad is an army officer also said that Chinese-made AK-47 were hopeless. Again, cannot be verified.
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/small_arms/type81rifle.asp
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2700/2790.htm
http://www.snipersparadise.com/articles/chinacomplex.htm -
There are so much wrong with Arjun even India's own army doesn't want it.Originally posted by moca:What's wrong with the Arjun?
On the other hand, not only china has been able to supply PLA with her home made tanks, it has also secured some dedicated foreign clients. Pakistan Army are so happy with it they even aquired a license for mass production.
And for that matter, and reliable source to say that the Chinese tanks are /good/great/perfect?
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type90.asp
1st of all, INSAS is not a AK-47 clone, far from it.
I do know that the Nepalese are saying that the INSAS rifles supplied by India are crap. But apart from them no other sources. If this is true, then India must be the first ones to copy the AK-47 and fail.
Of course, one Indonesian who's dad is an army officer also said that Chinese-made AK-47 were hopeless. Again, cannot be verified.
2ndly, you are equating some nameless indonesian's nameless dad's "unverfied" words with the verifed the assesment of a sovereign country's army, who were battling a raging maoist insurgence under real combat conditions. Way to go to make a fool out of yourself here. -
Not trying to rub salt on any wounds in national pride, can give a quick summary on the problems of the Arjun? The details, Google can provide.
Thank you. -
The problem is with the Indian army strategy and not with the tank. The IA strategy is based on the USSR model of large number of light faster tanks taking on smaller number of better tanks. Still this strategy has not changed hence the Arjun did not get its due share in the IA. The IA is inducting around 120 of them.
Regarding INSAS it is a very good weapon. After that allegation no more allegations by anyone.
http://www.india4u.com/india4unews/newsview.asp?ID=672
Kathmandu, Aug 14 (IANS) Though Nepal's army blames Indian rifles for its reverses at the hands of Maoist insurgents in midwestern Nepal last week, it owes a recent victory to the same weapon, defence analysts say.
The Royal Nepalese Army created a furore Friday when its spokesman, Brigadier General Dipak Gurung, alleged at a press conference here that the army lost 43 soldiers at Pili in Kalikot district Aug 7 because the INSAS rifles used by the soldiers malfunctioned.
The analysts say while Gurung blamed the INSAS for the Pili debacle, he also claimed over 300 Maoists were killed in the battle, which proves the efficacy of the rifles.
The analysts, who declined to be named, also pointed out that in April the army had inflicted huge losses on the insurgents when they tried to capture an army camp in the rocky Khara area in western Nepal's Rukum district.
Though Rukum is a rebel stronghold, the army killed nearly 120 outlaws during the attack while over 70 wounded guerrillas were said to have died later trying to get medical treatment.
During the Khara battle, the army had used INSAS rifles. Though the attack lasted for nearly 15 hours, the rifles did not get heated or malfunction.
A team of experts, including P.K. Agarwal, additional general manager of the rifle factory in India that manufactures the weapons, visited Nepal to teach the Nepalese army how to fire and maintain the guns.
It was found that some of the guns did not fire because the soldiers had not wiped off the grease the factory had coated them with to prevent rust. The team test-fired 400 rounds continuously during the demonstration without hitch. -
I was quoting some sources and asking questions, and I did say that the info cannot be verified.Originally posted by YaoRockets:1st of all, INSAS is not a AK-47 clone, far from it.
2ndly, you are equating some nameless indonesian's nameless dad's "unverfied" words with the verifed the assesment of a sovereign country's army, who were battling a raging maoist insurgence under real combat conditions. Way to go to make a fool out of yourself here.
So you can go fu.ck yourself. -
Originally posted by zenden9:
I said AK-47, not type 81, you stupid idiot.
[b]
I don know Indonesia Army r using Chinese AK-47??? So in what position r he to comment? Btw, Type 81 which is a upgrade of AK-47 is export world wide and receive plenty of appraise.So i don know what bul*sh*t yr Friends dad r talking abt???
The PLA was so disatisfied with their own AK-47 that's why they made the Type-81. What Indoneisa got from China were AK-47, externally quite distinctly different.
No, the Indos are not using it cos they tested it and it was not good enough. But their commandos - Kopassus (go read the book) - do choose to use AK-47, though from where I don't know. -
erm... the INSAS does draw a lot of influence from the AK system.Originally posted by YaoRockets:1st of all, INSAS is not a AK-47 clone, far from it. ......Way to go to make a fool out of yourself here.
The following quotation from Modern Firearms http://world.guns.ru/assault/as67-e.htm
"The INSAS rifle is broadly based on the famous Kalashnikov AK-47 action, but with many modifications. The basic gas-operated action with long stroke gas piston and a rotating bolt, as well as the stamped steel receiver, are generally the same as in modern Kalashnikov rifles. "
So maybe you're the one making a fool of yourself here.
I do think you should keep personal insults out of your replies. If you have a point to make, then make it. I don't think MOCA said anything offensive and he did say that the info was unverified.
Let's keep this thread peaceful. -
Originally posted by zenden9:
Can you provide some reliable sources for the points you stated?
[b]
Overweight,low reliability,not able to fit into India rail system....So far less than a dozen has induct into India army after a 35yrs of development!!!
You can easily search for such sources of my comment in the internet!
edit
I mean the part about it being overweight and not reliable etc... Would be an interesting read. -
Well, no news reports are ever completely reliable or conclusive.
Regarding INSAS it is a very good weapon. After that allegation no more allegations by anyone.
http://www.india4u.com/india4unews/newsview.asp?ID=672 [/b]
To counter your news clipping, here's another one:
"The Times of India in its Aug 12, 2001, report says the Indian army had complained that the country's indigenous ‘state-of-the-art’ 5.56mm rifle was not performing to the optimum level with major defects like cold arrest, breakage and cracking of components reported in active areas like Siachen glacier, Kargil heights and other high altitude areas.
A report in defenceindia.com on July 17th said the Israeli Military Industry was involved in talks with IndiaÂ’s Ordnance Factory Board to transfer technology to locally manufacture Tavor 21s to meet additional projected requirements for an additional 10,000 assault rifles because the locally designed INSAS, that continues to face technical problems, is not suitable for the Special Forces, or the Para units."
Full report here:
http://www.nepalnews.com.np/archive/2005/aug/aug15/news07.php
I don't vouch for the reliability of the report quoted here, as I believe most news reporting are slanted to fit the opinion of whomever's writing it. -
Originally posted by Bhagat:
well, since we're in the news posting mood, here's another one:
[b
Regarding INSAS it is a very good weapon. [/b]
" new delhi: the army has complained that the country's indigenous state-of-the-art 5.56mm indian small arms system (insas) is not performing to the optimum level with major defects like cold arrest, breakage and cracking of components reported in active areas like siachen glacier, kargil heights and other high altitude areas "major defects in assault rifles as well as light machine guns like change lever system, breakage of carrying handle, screw locking butt, crack of retainer and breakage of barrel bulge have come to the fore from forward areas," top army officials said. they said that these defects, which had come to the fore even during the kargil conflict, had been brought to the notice of rifle specialists at ishapore factory as well drdo scientists and that the defects were yet to be rectified. these defects as well as ordinance factories not keeping to delivery schedules had forced the army, with government clearance, to import one lakh ak-47 assault rifles from romania at a cost of rs 85 crore. .....they said a special task force comprising officials of master general of ordinance, directorate general of quality assurance, rifle specialists and drdo scientists had been constituted to rectify the defects. .......etc"
Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1245199981.cms
However, I think it was wrong of the Nepali to blame defeat on a rifle. The Maoist rebels are only as well-armed as the Nepali Army - probably worst. And yet the rebels scored so many victories. -
Cannot verify and u still post? Making a fool of yrself? Scold vulgarity? Usually when someone lost the plot to argue and know they r defeated in a statement they will utter dirty words! Don't worry,i will forgive you!Originally posted by moca:I was quoting some sources and asking questions, and I did say that the info cannot be verified.
So you can go fu.ck yourself.
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Which Chinese make Ak-47 u r talking abt? Type81 and Type 56 r both CHinese make-AK-47... Type 56 is a pure copy of Russian AK-47.. while Type81 still resembles a Ak-47 but with many important improvement like less recoil and better accuracy! I am not God,able to know which CHinese Ak-47 yr good Indonesian friend's father r talking abt??? I just quote source at least not to utter rubbish!Originally posted by moca:I said AK-47, not type 81, you stupid idiot.
The PLA was so disatisfied with their own AK-47 that's why they made the Type-81. What Indoneisa got from China were AK-47, externally quite distinctly different.
No, the Indos are not using it cos they tested it and it was not good enough. But their commandos - Kopassus (go read the book) - do choose to use AK-47, though from where I don't know. -
Would you call the Type 81 an AK-47?Originally posted by zenden9:Which Chinese make Ak-47 u r talking abt? Type81 and Type 56 r both CHinese make-AK-47... Type 56 is a pure copy of Russian AK-47.. while Type81 still resembles a Ak-47 but with many important improvement like less recoil and better accuracy! I am not God,able to know which CHinese Ak-47 yr good Indonesian friend's father r talking abt??? I just quote source at least not to utter rubbish!
No, it is externally quite different.
Would you call the Type 56 an AK-47?
Yes.
See, it is that simple. You don't have to be god. You just have to use the little brain god gave you before you start using words like bullshxt when making your point. -
Since u r so good,why you didin't use Type 56 instead of using Chinese made Ak-47 which make a big round of it over yr reference intially?? (You know ,u never use and now saying start using the spec??) Oh... I forget,u r one using the F word around and now trying to educate others!!Originally posted by moca:Would you call the Type 81 an AK-47?
No, it is externally quite different.
Would you call the Type 56 an AK-47?
Yes.
See, it is that simple. You don't have to be god. You just have to use the little brain god gave you before you start using words like bullshxt when making your point.