Isreali Military Tactics In Lebanon
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Hello,
Was wondering if you guys have the same kind of curiosity or amazement/ bewilderment whatever when you guys read the news about the Isreali military agression recently in Lebanon.
What puzzles me most is, why is the Isreali military destroying all those civillian infrastructures and worse, killed a lot of innocent people. They bombed the bomb shelters, bombed UN observation post, apart from residential apartments and so on.
Seeing this, Im really puzzled what exactly those military generals and strategists are thinking.
What are they doing exactly?
They seem to want to deliver a certain message, I dont know what it is. Is it to make Hezbollah demoralized by killing women and children? Is it to force a certain peace deal? Will this not increase their anger instead? Not to mention worldwide Muslim resentment. Next time they will have bigger problems.
I really dont know what they are trying to achieve.
Any guesses? -
It may shed some light if you check what Hitler was doing in the beginning of WW2
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According to reports Hezballoh was using residential estates as launch pad for their rockets..Originally posted by #$%^&*:Hello,
Was wondering if you guys have the same kind of curiosity or amazement/ bewilderment whatever when you guys read the news about the Isreali military agression recently in Lebanon.
What puzzles me most is, why is the Isreali military destroying all those civillian infrastructures and worse, killed a lot of innocent people. They bombed the bomb shelters, bombed UN observation post, apart from residential apartments and so on.
Seeing this, Im really puzzled what exactly those military generals and strategists are thinking.
What are they doing exactly?
They seem to want to deliver a certain message, I dont know what it is. Is it to make Hezbollah demoralized by killing women and children? Is it to force a certain peace deal? Will this not increase their anger instead? Not to mention worldwide Muslim resentment. Next time they will have bigger problems.
I really dont know what they are trying to achieve.
Any guesses?
Read lionnoisy's post in this thread
What the Israeli really wants is probably to neutralized it..
The Hezbollah won't get demoralized lah.. they are more happier when the Israel kill more civilians... Its their strategy! -
ThatÂ’s remind me when in WW2, the common way for the NaziÂ’s & Japs Imperial Army to clean resistance forces in urban warfare is once they detect any resistance in certain area, they will purge all. Ok, should we blame the fascistÂ’s cruelness or the resistance force taking the people as shield?
The crucial judgment dependent on the south Lebanon people, do they treat the Israeli as liberator or invader? We canÂ’t make judgment for them, because itÂ’s them who can treat the militia as their resistance force or terrorist. Or subsequently decided the southern people willing to scarify or have really being taken hostage.
Why the Hezbollah gains mandate and popularity even after the Israeli moved in? I mean I like those militia or not is in no concern because we are not participants. -
It is a war crime to use civilian as shields.
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Wads war crime to hezbollah? They fight by the rules, dirty tricks. Their tactic of getting the Israelis to hit the civis seems to be working. Now they can get the lebanon govt to kp abt the Israel to the world.
It is also so obvious Syria,Iran and maybe others are supplying the Hezbollah. Wonder where the hell they keep their rockets..in the mosque? schools? underground in the civi area? -
"Human shields".. ah.. this excuse is certainly getting old and over-used.
Hmm.. I thought "human shields" only works if the aggressors cares about innocent civilians lives. Since, the Israeli's has been proven to not give any regards to "hostages" now and in the past...
so, how does this excuse work ?? and since it does not work, why would the Hezbollah use them..
Yes, some may argue that it is the intention of Hez to force the Israel to attack civilians and win world sympathy.. but this is not always the case.. especially when Israel claims that the use precision weapon minimise civilian casualty... which again isn't true. Of course, they can always say it's a mistake... but Precision Guided weaponry are either optical or lazer guided (cruise missle is another thing).. so there is a human factor here.. and what that person is aiming.. especially with a lazer designator.. is a knownledgable intention.
Let's examine it carefully.
When someone uses another human being as a "shield," under the plain meaning of the word, it is understood to be a method to deter aggression by adversaries. In order for that objective to be achieved, crucial premises must first exist.
The party who employs the human shield MUST assume that their adversary will hesitate to fire against those shields for fear of harming them.
But in order for that to happen, the adversary must first CARE about the welfare of the so-called "human shields."
If the opposing party DOES NOT CARE about their welfare, then the alleged objective of deterring aggression falls apart.
Indeed, Israelis frequently take civilians hostage to use as human shields because Hamas fighters are reluctuant to fire on them.
On the other hand, Israel has proved time and again, beyond ANY reasonable doubt, that they ARE NOT deterred in any manner whatsoever from employing overwhelming force against whatever target they see fit, regardless of whether civilians are in the area.
Israel's routine AFTER-THE-FACT attempts to characterize civilian victims of their ruthless aggression as Hizbullah's "human shields" is nothing less than a diabolical effort to twist the meaning of the phrase beyond all recognition.
Once we understand the "shield" theory, the only alternative Israel presents in its favor is the outrageous suggestion that Hizbullah fired from near civilian areas for the purpose of proving that Israel DOES NOT CARE about massive civilian deaths. In other words, not as a method to deter aggression but as a method to win the PR war against Israel. If believed, then indeed Hizbullah succeeded in proving that Israel DOES NOT CARE ONE IOATA about the lives of innocent Arab civilians.
If accepted, this theory cannot prove that Hizbullah is cynically using innocent civilians without FIRST establishing that Israelis are wanton murderers with fore knowledge of innocent's death.
In such a scenario, Hizbullah's alleged cynicism cannot be a cause in fact of civilian deaths without an intervening and proximate cause - the depraved indifference by Israelis to massive loss of innocent civilian lives.
Oh ... here's a interesting video
Great rebuttal by CNN anchor against a Israel Spokeswomen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6fn5NZ6LBk&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwakeupfromyourslumber%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F2006%2F07%2Fcnn%2Danchor%2Dtakes%2Disraeli%2Dspokeswoman%2Ehtml -
I don't think the civvies are being used as shields, simply that they are being used...
In any case firing rockets from populated areas might be a bad idea to begin with, and I have no idea why they are putting people in the line of fire. At the very least they could prove absolute ill intent on Israel's part by firing from an unpopulated area and having them hit a populated area.
In any case hitting civvies with smart bombs seems like an awfully wasteful way of commiting genocide, there are better means at hand. -
Just to add... about the Qana incident.
'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34186
"There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the truth."
Abdel had taken shelter in a nearby house when the shelter was bombed at 1 am. When the bombings finally let up in the morning, he went back to the bombed shelter to search for relatives.
He found his 70-year-old father and 64-year-old mother both dead inside.
"They bombed it, and afterwards I heard the screams of women, children, and a few men -- they were crying for help. But then one minute after the first bomb, another bomb struck, and after this there was nothing but silence, and the sound of more bombs around the village."
Masen Hashen, a 30-year-old construction worker from Qana who lost several family members in the air strike on the shelter, said there were no Hezbollah rockets fired from his village. "Because if they had done that now, or in the past, all of us would have left. Because we know we would be bombed."
Qana had been a shelter because no rockets were being fired from there, survivors said. "When Hezbollah fires their rockets, everyone runs away because they know an Israeli bombardment will come soon," Abdel said. "That is why everyone stayed in the shelter and nearby homes, because we all thought we'd be all right since there were no Hezbollah fighters in Qana."
Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.
"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those."
Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas, because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."
While IPS was interviewing people in Qana at the site of the shelter Monday, Israeli warplanes roared overhead. Vibrations from nearby bombing rattled many buildings. At least three villages in southern Lebanon were attacked in Israeli air strikes Monday.As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.htmlAn AP and Israeli's source.. so much so 'Human Shield'..
It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.
The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.
The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.
Meanwhile, the Lebanese Red Cross workers reported on Monday that 28 bodies, 19 of them children, were removed from the rubble.
The count is lower than the some 60 bodies reported by news agencies, quoting Lebanese security officials. Survivors say 60 people were in the building at the time of the strike.
Additional bodies are expected to be found in rescue operations.
Elsewhere in southern Lebanon, 49 bodies were removed Monday from the ruins of buildings in ten villages. Medical sources in Lebanon say dozens more are buried in the rubble.
IDF sources said the warning pamphlets the IAF disseminated to residents, calling on them to leave the area, were dropped several days before the strike, and not over the weekend.
The IAF does not have a way to verify whether villages have been vacated, or whether civilians remain hidden in bomb-shelters in locations otherwise believed to have been vacated, the sources said.
Paratroopers who fought in Bint Jbail last week said they noticed civilians hiding in the rubble while the fierce battle with Hezbollah militants was taking place.
The IDF account and those of survivors present contradictory versions of the Qana deaths. The IDF said that there is an unexplained gap of about seven hours between the IAF strike and the first report that the building had collapsed. Residents' accounts say only 10 minutes went by between the strike and the collapse. -
Strategically, I have no idea what they are trying to do also. Maybe, they're trying to achieve the "Shock and Awe" "Atomic Bomb" affect to scare the Hezbollah into surrendering or to persuade the Lebanese to go against the Hezbollah so that they would surrender. I don't think it would work. If anything, the support for Hezbollah would be strengthen.
Tactically, they would continue to rely on air strikes and bombs even if it is inaccurate and the intelligence is faulty because those types of attacks minimize the risks of military casualties. To get a better, accurate Hezbollah/civilian kill ratio, they have to rely more on a ground offensive. But they would be reluctant to do so as it is more risky and cause alot more Israeli casualties. Furthermore, home support for the Israeli war would wane if the toll of military deaths keep increasing. -
But I don't think killing civvies helps their war efforts as well... not to mention this is the modern age and stuff like that gets out within hours. And it's something their enemy would want (expect) them to do as well.
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Yeah, but so far there are no actions taken against them for killing the civilians. The UN is pretty much powerless and they have the full support of the US. I also used to think there will be a huge penalty for killing civilians but apparently there isn't. You think they will be put to trial for war crimes? I don't think so.
If anything, it will strengthen their position when they finally get to the "peace" negotiations. They will be like " We just want peace. You agree to our terms and all this violence will stop. If not, *calls airstrike* ". Since they have the support of the US and UN is powerless to ensure the treaty is fair, it will be more like signing a surrender agreement rather than a peace agreement. 1 year later, when violence breaks out again because people do not think the agreement was fair, they will shout "You broke the agreement! Your broke the agreement! You are the bad guys. We are forced to defend ourselves again." Repeat every 1-2 years. -
I'm not so sure that they think that way.
For one thing you can't buy arab peace this way, these actions would only further justify terrorism on them. I think they are doing this with the full awareness that it is going to spark more violence... I can only guess at the end which they intend.
Maybe they just want to give anybody they percieve as a threat a 1X good one to state again that they aren't going to be swayed by attempts to make them look weak. I suspect it might be a case of not wanting to lose face... but at what cost? Or prehaps they are just tired and want to take more drastic and lasting actions to buy security.
It all seems to me to be madness there. -
Originally posted by MobyDog:
I suggest that you start studying some Law because,
"Human shields".. ah.. this excuse is certainly getting old and over-used.
Hmm.. I thought "human shields" only works if the aggressors cares about innocent civilians lives. Since, the Israeli's has been proven to not give any regards to "hostages" now and in the past...
If accepted, this theory cannot prove that Hizbullah is cynically using innocent civilians without FIRST establishing that Israelis are wanton murderers with fore knowledge of innocent's death.
In such a scenario, Hizbullah's alleged cynicism cannot be a cause in fact of civilian deaths without an intervening and proximate cause - the depraved indifference by Israelis to massive loss of innocent civilian lives.
1, its forbidden to use civilians as shields (fx placing missile ramps in a residential building)
2, if you do so the building becomes a legitime military target
3, this is well known by any military commander that its no use hiding behind civilians because doing this will make the civilians a legitime target to, and the commander will risk a warcrimes tribunal.
4, by doing this its hezbolla that commits a warcrime, not the Israelis. And its quite obvious that hezbolla has a greater intrest in the propaganda value, than in civilian sufferings. -
Originally posted by VikingS:
You mean like this..
I suggest that you start studying some Law because,
1, its forbidden to use civilians as shields (fx placing missile ramps in a residential building)
2, if you do so the building becomes a legitime military target
So how many Israel 2,000 aerial bombings of Lebanese civilian targets do you really think are legitimate targets... the UN post ?? Bridges ?? Airports ? Light house ? Entire Apartments blocks in a built up city of Beirut ?? .. honestly.3, this is well known by any military commander that its no use hiding behind civilians because doing this will make the civilians a legitime target to, and the commander will risk a warcrimes tribunal.
Does this not holds true too.. that Israel also placed his soldiers in Israeli communities, next to schools, beside hospitals, close to welfare centres, thus as your logic goes that any Israeli target is also a civilian target... thus the Israelis civilians are also used as Human shields by the IDF.
Any country would fight to defend towns and cities.... you mean "hey the Israelis are getting close... quick pack up and give up this town, if they come close to the next city we should do the same " What are you talking about. All major wars have soldiers in the cities.4, by doing this its hezbolla that commits a warcrime, not the Israelis. And its quite obvious that hezbolla has a greater intrest in the propaganda value, than in civilian sufferings.
yeah, right.... if the Lebanese have the same hardware and doing the same to Israel with the same reasons.. you won't be talking like this would you? -
Originally posted by MobyDog:
Yes there are reports from 2002 and 2004 that Israeli soldiers have used civilians to open doors, removing suspect objekts from roads. But this is acts by single soldiers and Israels supreme court has forbidden the practice in 2005.
The difference is that hizbolla is doing it regurlaly and it appears as they are using it as a standard tactic
Bridges, roads, airports are legitimate targets in a war zone even powerstations fall under this category. as for apartment blocks they become military targets as soon as hezbolla places missile ramps or military units there. As for the UN-post there are reports that fighting had been going on since the day before and there is no reports that UN tried to get hezbolla to move away.
So how many Israel 2,000 aerial bombings of Lebanese civilian targets do you really think are legitimate targets...
the UN post ?? Bridges ?? Airports ? Light house ? Entire Apartments blocks in a built up city of Beirut ?? ..
honestly.
If you dont belive me i suggest that you try to get hold of MINDEFs policy documents on applying the Conventions, Because its common that you teach your officers these things and i dont think they will differ from the ones used in the Swedish Armed Forces
And 2000 aerial bombings of civilian targets.. Give me your source
Give me proof that the Israelis are stationing equipment or units next to or in schools or hospitals.... Secondly stationing a military unit in a city does not make the whole city a legitime target, only the unit and its surroundings. And the difference between Israelis and hezbolla is that the Israelis aims at specific targets, and hezbolla aims att a city
Does this not holds true too.. that Israel also placed his soldiers in Israeli communities, next to schools, beside hospitals, close to welfare centres, thus as your logic goes that any Israeli target is also a civilian target... thus the Israelis civilians are also used as Human shields by the IDF.
Ah you dont understand, there is no problem defending cities och apartment buildings as long as you evacuate the civilians or take other steps to get them out of harms way (shelters) and if the civilians volunteer to stay, knowing the risks there is no warcrime
Any country would fight to defend towns and cities.... you mean "hey the Israelis are getting close... quick pack up and give up this town, if they come close to the next city we should do the same " What are you talking about. All major wars have soldiers in the cities.
Are you running out of arguments?
yeah, right.... if the Lebanese have the same hardware and doing the same to Israel with the same reasons.
you won't be talking like this would you? -
Ohh... I hasn't come across any reports that the Hezbollah doing those thongs as mentioned.. Care to clarify the above.. some articles will be good.Originally posted by VikingS:Yes there are reports from 2002 and 2004 that Israeli soldiers have used civilians to open doors, removing suspect objekts from roads. But this is acts by single soldiers and Israels supreme court has forbidden the practice in 2005.
The difference is that hizbolla is doing it regurlaly and it appears as they are using it as a standard tacticBridges, roads, airports are legitimate targets in a war zone even powerstations fall under this category.
I thought that Israel's reason for the Offensive was to eradicate Hez, and not declared war with Lebanon. Don't Israel consider the Hez as a Terrorist org ?as for apartment blocks they become military targets as soon as hezbolla places missile ramps or military units there.
Of all the numerous bombings.. only two videos are avaible of rockets being launched next to apartment blocks.. other video of Launches are in open areas..so why bomb those Apartments blocks? and one video of a truck going into a building (Not an apartment) in the suburd... that could be legit.
However, Apartments blocks in crowded Beirut and Tyre were bombed, Where are the proof that any military affiliation were there ? No rockets were reported launched from the city centres. Only missle reported launch was the attck on the Israel ship on July 14. Don't tell me that the Israelis says so.
You might want to go thru this site ..... scroll down to every reports to see whether Israel targets civilians or not... .
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/5.htmGive me proof that the Israelis are stationing equipment or units next to or in schools or hospitals....
Placing soldiers to protect those facilites are common MO in every country in wartime scenario.. BTW, the off duty uniformed IDF soldiers goes around Israel armed., even when there is no war.Secondly stationing a military unit in a city does not make the whole city a legitime target, only the unit and its surroundings.
The irony of this statement .. you mena Lenbanon is the exeption ?And the difference between Israelis and hezbolla is that the Israelis aims at specific targets, and hezbolla aims att a city
As I say, If Hez have the same hardware ... They would probaly do the same.As for the UN-post there are reports that fighting had been going on since the day before and there is no reports that UN tried to get hezbolla to move away.
The UN are not armed.Ah you dont understand, there is no problem defending cities och apartment buildings as long as you evacuate the civilians or take other steps to get them out of harms way (shelters) and if the civilians volunteer to stay, knowing the risks there is no warcrime
Not when the roads and Bridges are bombed and the leaflet saying the any cars will be targets. They had no choice... or that they are not that rich a country as Israel to have the luxury of bomb Shelters, if you think they can actually survive a Jdam strike.Are you running out of arguments?
Unless, you think it's isn't true. -
Vikings, I think I would just highlight some the reports of the Israel strikes
Attacks on Civilian Homes
Since July 12, when Hezbollah launched an attack on Israeli positions initially killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two, Israel and Hezbollah have engaged in intense hostilities. Israel has carried out hundreds of strikes against targets in Lebanon, including extensive attacks against LebanonÂ’s infrastructure, private homes and apartment buildings, as well as vehicles moving on roads. Israeli strikes have been especially heavy in ShiÂ’a-dominated areas of Lebanon, considered to be Hezbollah strongholds, including southern Lebanon, the southern suburbs of Beirut, and the Beqaa Valley.
To date, the chief cause of civilian deaths from the Israeli campaign is targeted strikes on civilian homes in villages of LebanonÂ’s South. There has also been large-scale destruction of civilian apartment buildings in southern Beirut, though most of the residents of those buildings had evacuated prior to the attacks. According to the Lebanese Ministry of Social Affairs, the IDF destroyed or damaged up to 5,000 civilian homes in air strikes during the first two weeks of the war.6 As demonstrated by the case studies below, Israel has caused large-scale civilian casualties by striking civilian homes, with no apparent military objective either inside the home or in the vicinity. In some cases, warplanes returned to strike again while residents and neighbors had gathered around the house to remove the dead and assist the wounded.
Israel claims that it is attacking homes belonging to Hezbollah members, and that Hezbollah is responsible for putting civilians at risk by placing their military positions inside or close to civilian homes. On July 19, for example, the IDF stated that “Hezbollah terrorists have turned southern Lebanon into a war zone and are operating near population centers there, using civilians as human shields.”7 On the same day, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman, told CNN: “We are trying to minimize hurting civilians, but when Hezbollah uses civilians as human shields, sometimes civilians will get hurt.”8
Human Rights Watch research established that, on some limited occasions, Hezbollah fighters have attempted to store weapons near civilian homes and have fired rockets from areas where civilians live. However, such practices do not justify the IDFÂ’s failure to distinguish between combatants and civilians.
On July 15, for example, a group of villagers from Marwahin left the area in a convoy, in part because Hezbollah was attempting to store weapons behind their homes, and residents feared a retaliatory IDF strike.9 Two rockets believed to have been fired from Israeli helicopters struck a white pick-up and a passenger car in the convoy on the road between the villages of Chamaa and Biyada, killing twenty-one civilians (see “Attacks on Fleeing Civilians”). A U.N. team trying to retrieve the bodies came under fire from the IDF.10 While the villagers’ flight could be attributed in part to Hezbollah’s unlawful attempt to store weapons in Marwahin—the main reason for flight was the Israeli warning to evacuate within two hour—Human Rights Watch found no evidence to suggest that Hezbollah fighters were near the civilian convoy when it got hit.
Christian villagers fleeing the village of `Ain Ebel have also complained about Hezbollah tactics that placed them at risk, telling the New York Times that “Hezbollah came to [our village] to shoot its rockets.… They are shooting from between our houses.”11 `Ain Ebel was a former stronghold for the Israeli-backed South Lebanese Army (SLA), a force opposed to Hezbollah. According to an official from `Ain Ebel, some villagers told him that Hezbollah had fired at Israel from certain positions close to their houses, although so far Human Rights Watch has heard no reports of Hezbollah entering any village homes. No villagers have died but a number have been injured (mostly from broken glass), and Israeli fire had destroyed roughly eighty of 400 houses, he said.12
Human Rights Watch is hardly asserting that all Israeli strikes have targeted civilians. There are obviously many cases in which Israeli forces attacked legitimate military targets, such as rocket launchers and dug-in military positions. However, in the cases documented below, no apparent military objective existed in the civilian houses that Israel attacked. Villagers interviewed privately in one-on-one settings stated credibly and consistently that Hezbollah was not present in their homes or the vicinity when the attacks took place, and Human Rights Watch found no other evidence to suggest that Hezbollah had been there.Killing of Four Brazilian-Lebanese Civilians in Srifa, July 13
Go thru ... every report... Please...
On two occasions, the IDF killed civilians in the village Srifa, located twenty-five kilometers from the Israel-Lebanon border. The first attack on July 13 killed four Brazilian-Lebanese dual nationals. On July 19, another strike killed nineteen people (see below).
The first took place at about 4 a.m. on July 13, around the same time as other air strikes on the villages of Dweir and Baflay (see below). Fatima Musa, a Srifa resident, described the strike to Human Rights Watch:
First they hit a school building at night, from Wednesday to Thursday, starting at around 3:30 to 4 a.m. Then, they hit the house just behind us. We didnÂ’t hear the airplanes, we just heard the rocket. We were sleeping and woke up when the house lit up from the explosions. My son was shivering with fear.13
The air strike hit a home in the Ain neighborhood of Srifa, demolishing the home and killing the family inside.
According to three witnesses, the four persons killed in the first strike on Srifa were all Brazilian-Lebanese dual nationals who had come to Srifa less than one month before to spend their summer vacation in the village.14 The witnesses identified the dead as Akil Merhi, 33; his wife, Ahlam Merhi, 25; their son, AbdÂ’el Hadi Merhi, 8; and their daughter, Fatima Merhi, 4. Because the family was only vacationing in Lebanon and normally resided in Brazil, it is unlikely that their adult members were involved in Hezbollah activities. The witnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch also denied there was a Hezbollah presence or fighting in the area at the time of the attack
In a statement, the IDF claimed to have struck “two Hezbollah bases” in Srifa on that day.15
The bodies of the four Merhi family members were covered with rubble, and firing from Israeli war planes prevented the villagers from digging them out. According to one witness:
The first time they tried to get the bodies out, some villagers went to try and extract them from the rubble, but another rocket fired on the home. Eventually they were able to get the bodies out, but that was only about noon. The bodies were buried in the village around 5 p.m.16
There was no Hezbollah activity around the home when the second bomb struck, the villagers said.
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/5.htm -
In order to carry out bombing accurate information is needed as a pilot from air cant differentiate a civilian from militiant in air. Hizbolah is a terrorist group and carry out guerilla warfare. It is difficult to obtain reliable information on their position especially since they are always on the move. When an information come in decision has to be made in a split second, for if the bombing is carried out a little latter the militiant might already be gone. Only land troops are able to differentiate between civilian and militiant. Due to unreliable information tragedy do happen.
This fight is a hard one to win. Drastic measures have always been taken to curb guerilla warefare always at the expense of civilian life. Just look into the history of the UK and America. Whether its right or not who knows.
For this war to end Lebanon has to take action. Lebanon shld no longer hail Hizbollah as a national hero instead they shld prevent hizbollah from launching the rockets near them to prevent Isreal from firing at them. i personally think this is one of the reason for the continous bombing. -
Woah... lets cool this heated discussion a bit here yeah?
Both VikingS and Mobydog are not wrong in their views. Fact of the matter is, the neither the Israelis nor the Hezbollah are right in what they are doing.
Against the Hezbollah case.
Firstly, they are combatants in civilian clothing, carrying out combat operations in a civilian populated area. By not attiring themselves in combat uniform, of ANY uniformed colors, they have jeopardised the safety of civilians already.
Secondly, they operate in civilian areas, place targets of high value within or next to civilian infrastructure, thereby jeopardising further the safety of the civilians and civilian infrastructure.
My opinion is that they INTEND to jeopardise the safety of civilians. If it was their intention to protect them, they would have cleared the area of civilians in the first place, OR simply NOT operate in these areas. Their presence in these areas is what is bringing the Israeli bombs in the first place. For every civilian killed, it brings negative international opinion and pressure on Israel, and that is perhaps what they hope to achieve.
Against the Israeli case.
Following some BBC reports, I've learnt that there have been NUMEROUS intelligence c0ckups, leading to mis-targeting of civilian targets. Fortunately, some Israeli Pilots had some better common sense, and deliberately missed their targets to avoid civilian casualties. Unfortunately, that would be non-compliance of orders.
Furthermore, certain incidences of targetting of emergency red cross/crescent vehicles, the UN outpost, as well as bombing of key highways that prevented civilians from evacuating quickly, reflects VERY negatively of Israeli Operations there. In short, I think the Israeli's are not really very sorry about mis-targetting of civilians either. To them, its probably a matter of not generating too much negative publicity.
My 2cents, none of them are angels. Both equally guilty of human rights violations. Tactics used by both sides reflect very little respect of the value of human life. IMO, the resolution calling Hezbollah to disarm is nothing more than lip service unless the UN is willing to BACK a "forced" disarmament process, AS well as confronting its masters/suppliers in Iran n Syria. -
I largely agree to what you have written... good post
But just some comments...Originally posted by Shotgun:
not all of them.. but largely correct.
Firstly, they are combatants in civilian clothing, carrying out combat operations in a civilian populated area. By not attiring themselves in combat uniform, of ANY uniformed colors, they have jeopardised the safety of civilians already.Secondly, they operate in civilian areas, place targets of high value within or next to civilian infrastructure, thereby jeopardising further the safety of the civilians and civilian infrastructure.
Every country with soldiers in war, also falls under this assumption.. don't you agree.
In the opening of the Israelis bomdardment of Infrastructures in Lebanon, most of the Hez fighters were not really moblilised yet.. because the intensity of the IDF response was quite a surprise to them...My opinion is that they INTEND to jeopardise the safety of civilians. If it was their intention to protect them, they would have cleared the area of civilians in the first place, OR simply NOT operate in these areas. Their presence in these areas is what is bringing the Israeli bombs in the first place. For every civilian killed, it brings negative international opinion and pressure on Israel, and that is perhaps what they hope to achieve.
Not to say, it isn't true that they jeopardise the safety of civilians. To say that the 'Intended to' is really too sided.. because this is not always the case.
BTW, If they do not operate in area of civilian, the mechanised IDF would swept thru Lebanon in days.. -
I'm sure the Israelis would gladly avoid urban areas if they were a given a choice to. But yes, if the hezbollah had operated outside urban areas, they would have been easy pickings by the Israeli Air Force and rolled over by the Merkavas.
So the Hezbollah made a decision to fight the Israelis in urban areas, at the expense of the civilians. There is simply no way to white wash Hezbollah.
There is also no need to white wash the Israelis, since the whole world now knows what they have been doing in the Gaza strip and west bank. And in this case, no doubt the Israelis had made some decisions to deliberately attack some civilian targets suspected of hiding hezbollah militants, most of these attacks now suspected to be based on inaccurate intelligence. -
Originally posted by MobyDog:
The discussion was about shielding behind civilians And as i pointed out there is a big difference in what single soldiers are doing and if its a general tactic and you can read what Jan Egeland says in Al Jazeera
Ohh... I hasn't come across any reports that the Hezbollah doing those thongs as mentioned..
Care to clarify the above.. some articles will be good
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/46DACF37-AD07-4D14-A4EA-9F9B1909DE5D.htm
"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending
... among women and children," he said.
"I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brun
t of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men."
Even if no formal war is declared the situaton is akin to a formal war and the conventions is in force, or are you saying the opposite?
I thought that Israel's reason for the Offensive was to eradicate Hez, and not declared war
with Lebanon. Don't Israel consider the Hez as a Terrorist org ?
Only two =) you havent put mutch effort in to it ill guess and for Beirut and Tyre the Israelis say they bombed command centers and weapons depots
Of all the numerous bombings.. only two videos are avaible of rockets being launched next
to apartment blocks.. other video of Launches are in open areas..so why bomb those Apartments
blocks? and one video of a truck going into a building (Not an apartment) in the suburd... that could be legit.
However, Apartments blocks in crowded Beirut and Tyre were bombed, Where are the proof that
any military affiliation were there ? No rockets were reported launched from the city centres.
Only missle reported launch was the attck on the Israel ship on July 14. Don't tell me that the Israelis says so.
You might want to go thru this site ..... scroll down to every reports to see whether Israel
targets civilians or not... .
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/5.htm
As for the HRW in most of the incidents they base their reports on what local people is saying, i doubt that a villager in a hezbolla area will admit that hezbolla sheltered in the village. And i doubt that all the HRW people have the neccesary traning to identify traces of military activity, and i dont se
that they have asked IDF for any evidence that it was military targets
You must be joking... its NOT MO in Northern Europe to place combat troops at schools or hospitals in wartime
Placing soldiers to protect those facilites are common MO in every country in wartime scenario..
BTW, the off duty uniformed IDF soldiers goes around Israel armed., even when there is no war.
And secondly a single soldier on leave does not make a target out of a house
(look at the swiss where all reservists have weapons and uniform at home)
Are you saying that the Israelis are carpet bombing?
The irony of this statement .. you mena Lenbanon is the exeption ?
Yes and then hizbulla wouldnt be commiting any warcrimes as they are doing now by shelling Israeli towns indiscriminately
As I say, If Hez have the same hardware ... They would probaly do the same.
Yes and why the hell didnt UN command whitdraw them the day before when the fighting erupted, The UN command says they tried to get the Israelis to stop for 6 hours, for how many hours did they try to get hizbolla to move away
The UN are not armed.
or stop firing at the Israelis? Why does UN first go out whith a statement that there was no Hizbolla activity, a statement they had to retract when the E-letter from the killed Canadian was publicised?
And there is no evidence saying they placed equipment and prepared positions BEFORE the Israelis counter attackt?
Not when the roads and Bridges are bombed and the leaflet saying the any cars will be targets.
They had no choice... or that they are not that rich a country as Israel to have the luxury
of bomb Shelters, if you think they can actually survive a Jdam strike
As long we discuss things connected to Internaional law, Haag and Geneva conventions, and to some extent Miltary MO/SOP and ROE ill suggest that you do some reading before trying yo imply that i am totally biased.
Unless, you think it's isn't true. -
Vikings, you know I'm getting tired of all this .. It's getting no where. You have your view and I have mine.
Originally posted by VikingS:
[/quote]The discussion was about shielding behind civilians And as i pointed out there is a big difference in what single soldiers are doing and if its a general tactic and you can read what Jan Egeland says in Al Jazeera[/quote]So tell me... have Hez did those things as a general tactics or not ?Jan Egeland says in Al Jazeera
Which war .. have you not seen soldiers mingling with civilains before ? also The Iraqi and French resistance fighter also fight amids civilians.. you don't call them using the Civilians as human shield .. do you ?
"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," he said.Even if no formal war is declared the situaton is akin to a formal war and the conventions is in force, or are you saying the opposite?
The difference is .. are you fighting a Terrorist guerila org or a country ..Only two =) you havent put mutch effort in to it ill guess
Yup... only two... that i know that are fired next to buildings. You could point me to more.. but that's still dime to a dozen bombings of buildings.. and since the rockets launches are near or next to building .. why were the building bombed .. since they are using Precison bombs ?and for Beirut and Tyre the Israelis say they bombed command centers and weapons depots
Of the numerous bombing..Have they been all verified or are they just what the Israel claims.As for the HRW in most of the incidents they base their reports on what local people is saying, i doubt that a villager in a hezbolla area will admit that hezbolla sheltered in the village.
The HRW and Red Cross would need to be on the site hear what the LOcals are saying.. are they IDF there ??And i doubt that all the HRW people have the neccesary traning to identify traces of military activity, and i dont see that they have asked IDF for any evidence that it was military targets
Of the numerous bombing, I don't see that the IDF provided any evidence too...onlt what they claimed. They do.. like that the Qana bombing... but there were just too many.. but after this conflict we'll see.You must be joking... its NOT MO in Northern Europe to place combat troops at schools or hospitals in wartime
Didn't they IDF says that they have bombed entire apartment blocks , jusr because some Hez leader are said to be living there..?
And secondly a single soldier on leave does not make a target out of a house(look at the swiss where all reservists have weapons and uniform at home)
The Irony... then they are a military target.. well according to the IDF.. Blending with civilians.. Weapons cache..., you have just describe the average Hez Joe.Are you saying that the Israelis are carpet bombing?
no.. no.. no, The IDF only used precision bombing with faulty intelligence.Yes and then hizbulla wouldnt be commiting any warcrimes as they are doing now by shelling Israeli towns indiscriminately
What's new.. they are after all said to be a terrorist.Yes and why the hell didnt UN command whitdraw them the day before when the fighting erupted,
Because that's their job ?? and going out during arty bombardment isn't wise.. since IDF do make mistakes.The UN command says they tried to get the Israelis to stop for 6 hours, for how many hours did they try to get hizbolla to move away or stop firing at the Israelis?
sick logic... did the Hezbollah attack the UN post or attack Israel within the their compund.Why does UN first go out whith a statement that there was no Hizbolla activity, a statement they had to retract when the E-letter from the killed Canadian was publicised?
Still, Hez did not operate within the UN Compound to be hit by a Precision bomb and gets shelled for...And there is no evidence saying they placed equipment and prepared positions BEFORE the Israelis counter attackt?
Precisely the point ...As long we discuss things connected to Internaional law, Haag and Geneva conventions, and to some extent Miltary MO/SOP and ROE ill suggest that you do some reading before trying yo imply that i am totally biased
Both of us are Bias.. admit it..
IDF is a legit standing Army.. once the conflict is over.. we shall see whether the IDF have fouled any International laws... don't be surprised. -
I suspect a lot of deaths in this conflict was due to the messiness of the whole thing rather then deliberate malice. That said, both sides simply don't care as much about civillians as they ought to. Deliberately targeting civillians? There are cheaper ways to do it then with airstrikes.